Jill Duggar Dillard Part 9: They slosh through the rain.

[nokidsmom]

26 minutes ago, paulypepper said:

Been to Disney World and Universal both, and have always said no to Disney unless you have toddlers, or youngans ... youngans ...yeah that's how we talk here. I'm not trying to take away from the Disney experience because it is great, however it is directed toward the younger folks. Hey maybe we should get an FJ "cruise" type thing thing going...

I finally went to Disney when I was 18.  My folks for whatever reason, finally decided to go to Florida and take in Disney after many years of us begging to go as kids but we finally quit bothering them when we were teens.   It was frankly way too "young" for me in terms of rides, I had already been spoiled by the more exciting rides at our local Six Flags.  Though Pirates of the Caribbean was cool.  

[Mela99]

FJ Cruise!!! Or FJ Con. Something!

Husband has been to Disney 4 times. I have a feelin we'll wait till we have kids so I have someone to go on ries with :3

[apandaaries]

20 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

She may have learned the language "rules" but she may have learned them as rules, not as something she can apply.  I have had lots of students over the years who can recognize adverbs, list prepositions, recite the difference between direct and indirect objects... And can't write a paragraph in any language.  Memorizing conjugations doesn't help you in actual use of the language unless you are really conscious of how the language (or languages in general) work.  Jill may very well be able to recite "Yo soy, tu eres, el es,  nosotros somos," etc. but get totally freaked about deciding whether to use "ser" or "estar."

Keep in mind also that Jill is a "perfect girl." "Perfect girls" never risk making a mistake or doing anything wrong if they can avoid it.  She may be afraid of making mistakes which pretty much silences the language learner. 

Arriving a bit late to this party, but QTF here.  Another important factor is that Jill doesn't read -- the Bible doesn't count in this instance.  She's not surrounding herself with rich literature and a variety of dialects; she's spent much of her time encompassed by other Duggarlings and their particular strain of speech.  She's not exposed to other ways of presenting information, or grammatically correct ways of speaking/writing, and she doesn't seek such out independently.  IME, those with little exposure to reading and writing have a drastically harder time learning a second language.  Often they lack a solid sense of grammar in their home language, which then doubles the work of trying to learn a new language and its grammatical rules.  It's a massive undertaking which requires a lot of discipline and motivation to learn -- these aren't traits Jill has in abundance.  

I also suspect that seeing people approach the world in a drastically different fashion has to be jarring for her.  She's travelled before, but short term, and surrounded by her family.  She always had JB to remind them that no matter what they saw, their way, the Duggar-Gothard path, was the superior way to live.  Suddenly she's amongst the "heathens," trying to save souls, not speaking the language, and longing for comfort food like Chickenetti -- and probably missing her home structure and siblings.  Jill strikes me as an extrovert who requires a lot of people time (she kept hanging out with her buddies after leaving the TTH, whereas Jessa barely sees Jinger once a week now -- HUGE differences to how they experienced life in and away from the TTH), but people time can become much more stressful in the long term when communication factors are difficult. Home sickness can be a very real thing, and a sense of alienation is more than common amongst long term travelers, immigrants, expats, and "missionaries" (probably also a factor for real missionaries, too, but the Jillards get scare quotes).

I'm still trying to parse Derrick.  He did make that comment about leaving Arkansas to protect his family, but I'm still confused about how he's doing that.  My best bet is that, sadly and irrationally, he moved away from the secular world and into the gravitational pull of JB and the cult intentionally.  I still suspect that his father's sudden passing greatly impacted this horrible decision.  Grief is strange.  I lost my father at a fairly young age, while in college, and some of the decisions I made even years after his death were clearly influenced by that sense of loss.  For Derrick, finding this close-knit family and a pseudo-father figure/prayer partner in JB, and then getting hooked up with a loving and adoring-eyed wife -- what a find!  Clearly God's blessings, right?  Until he has to face the long-term aspects of this union and all it stands for, including having Josh as a BIL and discovering...let's say, the deficits of his wife's education and personal development.

Regarding the less on-topic aspects of the thread:  Henry VIII clearly overvalued himself and his position in Europe.  Just look at all his prominent codpieces in his portraits!  That man thought a bit too highly of himself...which sadly and eventually (after Elizabeth) led to King James getting the throne, commissioning his own Bible, and making it as misogynistic as possible.  Never forget that he hated witches, loved burning them, and considered himself an expert on witchcraft; don't think that didn't somehow influence what went into his Bible. 

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

FJ Cruise!!! Or FJ Con. Something!

FJ Con!  Everyone dress as their favorite fundie!  Rent/beg/borrow eleventy kids! It'd be amazing.  Think of the pictures; think of the memories...

[nastyhobbitses]

1 hour ago, Mela99 said:

FJ Cruise!!! Or FJ Con. Something!

Husband has been to Disney 4 times. I have a feelin we'll wait till we have kids so I have someone to go on ries with :3

I would be down with an FJ cruise. Let's make it as defrauding as possible! Music with a beat! Bikinis and shorts! Alcohol! Movies with evil content!

[Zola]

Has anybody ever been to Hershey Park? It really, truly is the sweetest smelling place on Earth.

[Four is Enough]

WDW is wonderful. First trip? I was 30, went with Mr. Four, and it was pre-marriage (gasp!) We arrived at Main street, and first thing I did was to buy mouse ears with my name on them. Shortly after, the 3pm parade started, and I was literally jumping up and down on the street corner, with tears in my eyes. I give Mr. Four a lot of credit for marrying that crazy woman, and taking her BACK to Disney World 10 times... We will often go into one of the boat rides or longer shows to get out of the heat of a summer afternoon. Small World is a favorite. One of Four had a little music box that played the theme song. He wore it out. He still keeps it, though, in hopes he can get it fixed.  He's 24.  We always do Small World, Pirates, Jungle cruise, and the Haunted Mansion as many times as we're able.  We also love Spaceship Earth.  Any nice relaxing ride, I'm for it! So Carousel of Progress, YES! Tomorrowland Transit Authority, YES!

 

Been to Hershey Park many times. Rode the Comet exactly once. Thought I was gonna die. No thanks. I do remember WAAY back, a factory tour, where we looked through glass panes to see the big vats of chocolate being stirred. The smell is heavenly. Interesting fact: Many PA roads can be seen to be a brownish-discolored-looking.. they are paved partially with crushed cocoa shells.

[PennySycamore]

3 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Not a problem with me, i'm super immature LOL I might be going to the Eurodisney soon, definitely want the whole experience... I'm 26 and my room is filled with disney stuff (and hello kitty, i need to go to Seoul too) but i'll take the cruise with u guys!

A few years ago, my daughter and her husband were disappointed to learn that Hong Kong Disneyland closed about 15 minutes or so after they arrived at their hotel which was adjacent to the park.  They'd have loved  to have taken new daughter (who was 2) for her first Disney trip even if it was pretty short. My son-in-law's first flight was to LA and Disneyland.  He needed to get over his fear of flying before flying to Beijing so that they could pick up their daughter so flying to LA and Disneyland was the test.  I believe that they've all been to WDW since their daughter joined the family.

[EmCatlyn]

10 hours ago, BabyFreeZone said:

Sounds crazy, but even medieval European women would have had more freedom than the Duggar girls:

1. While most people lacked access to effective birth control, they still tried to limit families. For example, nursing babies/children longer can keep the body from becoming pregnant. 

2. Sex wasn't a particularly big secret. For peasant families, especially, everyone tended to share the same room, if not the same bed, so children would have certainly seen adults having sex. Some authorities even suggested that female orgasm was required for conception (which, unfortunately, made persecuting rape cases difficult).

3. Arranged marriages were common for nobility but generally not for the lower classes. And marriage as we think of it, an official church ceremony, came about rather late, the 1000s I believe. Before that basically you just said "We're married" in front of some witnesses.

4. Likewise, courtly love traditions (an upper class phenomena coming out of the 1200s) suggested that you could find love outside of marriage. Courtly love was supposed to be chaste (though all the best stories featured actual affairs!), but I can't imagine the Duggars saying "it's okay to romantically love someone who is not your spouse."

5. And of course medieval people certainly enjoyed drinking and dancing.

Yeesh, I never thought about this before, that a modern woman might have reason to be envious of a medieval one.

A lot of the restrictions on upper and middle class women's behavior that the Fundies are so fond of date to the late eighteenth century and Victorian periods.  In the Middle Ages, for example, a married woman with a trade, skill or substantial property could get herself declared a "feme sole" ( this is not a misspelling of French. It is Anglo-Norman).  This would give her the standing to manage her money and write contracts be active in guilds etc. in her own right. The practice had disappeared by the mid eighteenth century, though the upper classes still used trusts and "settlements" to protect a woman's dowry from being used up by her husband.

The neurotic obsession with "purity" and the emphasis on women's place being the domestic world, while men went out into the public world, is very much a 19th century phenomenon though it has its origins earlier.

Incidentally, the Duggar combination of parents who are not discreet about their sexuality but who nevertheless expect "purity" from not only their daughters but their sons is not (to my knowledge) found in the customs/teachings of any other times in Western culture.  Based on my limited knowledge of other fundies, I get the impression that the Duggars are a bit more... overt about their ... attraction for one another.  Do others get the same sense?

[MoonFace]

3 hours ago, HermioneSparrow said:

Not a problem with me, i'm super immature LOL I might be going to the Eurodisney soon, definitely want the whole experience... I'm 26 and my room is filled with disney stuff (and hello kitty, i need to go to Seoul too) but i'll take the cruise with u guys!

I've been to DL and WDW (and Universal) Love WDW.   My story is that I add the two digits of my age and I don't have to act any older than that.    

I'm surprised that TLC didn't try to get Duggars to go to Disney for a trip.  But then, they would have been exposed to so many people in shorts and tank tops. 

How about TLC promotes DUGGAR LAND!  Everyone gets issued a frumper (or black skirt and green blouse) to wear with pants underneath so they can go on rides like the water ride :  Damnation River where you get baptised at the end,  or the roller coaster Slippery Slope to Hell.   They can even have competitions to see who can grift the most in a pretend game show!

 

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, amandaaries said:

Arriving a bit late to this party, but QTF here.  Another important factor is that Jill doesn't read -- the Bible doesn't count in this instance.  She's not surrounding herself with rich literature and a variety of dialects; she's spent much of her time encompassed by other Duggarlings and their particular strain of speech.  She's not exposed to other ways of presenting information, or grammatically correct ways of speaking/writing, and she doesn't seek such out independently.  IME, those with little exposure to reading and writing have a drastically harder time learning a second language.  Often they lack a solid sense of grammar in their home language, which then doubles the work of trying to learn a new language and its grammatical rules.  It's a massive undertaking which requires a lot of discipline and motivation to learn -- these aren't traits Jill has in abundance.  

I also suspect that seeing people approach the world in a drastically different fashion has to be jarring for her.  She's travelled before, but short term, and surrounded by her family.  She always had JB to remind them that no matter what they saw, their way, the Duggar-Gothard path, was the superior way to live.  Suddenly she's amongst the "heathens," trying to save souls, not speaking the language, and longing for comfort food like Chickenetti -- and probably missing her home structure and siblings.  Jill strikes me as an extrovert who requires a lot of people time (she kept hanging out with her buddies after leaving the TTH, whereas Jessa barely sees Jinger once a week now -- HUGE differences to how they experienced life in and away from the TTH), but people time can become much more stressful in the long term when communication factors are difficult. Home sickness can be a very real thing, and a sense of alienation is more than common amongst long term travelers, immigrants, expats, and "missionaries" (probably also a factor for real missionaries, too, but the Jillards get scare quotes).

I'm still trying to parse Derrick.  He did make that comment about leaving Arkansas to protect his family, but I'm still confused about how he's doing that.  My best bet is that, sadly and irrationally, he moved away from the secular world and into the gravitational pull of JB and the cult intentionally.  I still suspect that his father's sudden passing greatly impacted this horrible decision.  Grief is strange.  I lost my father at a fairly young age, while in college, and some of the decisions I made even years after his death were clearly influenced by that sense of loss.  For Derrick, finding this close-knit family and a pseudo-father figure/prayer partner in JB, and then getting hooked up with a loving and adoring-eyed wife -- what a find!  Clearly God's blessings, right?  Until he has to face the long-term aspects of this union and all it stands for, including having Josh as a BIL and discovering...let's say, the deficits of his wife's education and personal development.

Regarding the less on-topic aspects of the thread:  Henry VIII clearly overvalued himself and his position in Europe.  Just look at all his prominent codpieces in his portraits!  That man thought a bit too highly of himself...which sadly and eventually (after Elizabeth) led to King James getting the throne, commissioning his own Bible, and making it as misogynistic as possible.  Never forget that he hated witches, loved burning them, and considered himself an expert on witchcraft; don't think that didn't somehow influence what went into his Bible. 

FJ Con!  Everyone dress as their favorite fundie!  Rent/beg/borrow eleventy kids! It'd be amazing.  Think of the pictures; think of the memories...

Derick...the downside to never really spending any time with Jill pre wedding- He married a stranger. I wonder when the gravity of his situation dawned on him? Does he really think that Jill has the skill sets to be delivering babies?

[Screamapillar]

27 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

  

I'm surprised that TLC didn't try to get Duggars to go to Disney for a trip.  But then, they would have been exposed to so many people in shorts and tank tops. 

 

They went to Disneyland in the 16 Kids and on the Road episode. The kids didn't seem that into it, but I guess if you don't know Disney Characters, or even Fairy Tales for that matter, it's not as much fun.

Unconnected side rant: I hate that they got to meet Dolly Parton when they went to Dollywood. Dolly Parton is my hero!

[apandaaries]

1 minute ago, Screamapillar said:

Unconnected side rant: I hate that they got to meet Dolly Parton when they went to Dollywood. Dolly Parton is my hero!

I have this weird love for Dolly myself.  If you rewatch the episode where they go to Dollywood, they all take a picture in a group together. Josh is there, standing beside Anna, but you can see him checking out Dolly's ass as she wiggled into the photo.  Surrounded by his family and life(?) partner, and he's still ogling the goods.  He has never had an ounce of self-control. 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, paulypepper said:

Been to Disney World and Universal both, and have always said no to Disney unless you have toddlers, or youngans ... youngans ...yeah that's how we talk here. I'm not trying to take away from the Disney experience because it is great, however it is directed toward the younger folks. Hey maybe we should get an FJ "cruise" type thing thing going...

I agree that Magic Kingdom in DW is mostly for kids, but EPCOT and Disney Studios have more grown up stuff.  Even MK and Animal Kingdom have adult-level attractions.  What my husband and I did on our last visit was spend most of our time in Epcot but visit the other parks for a few hours in the afternoon.  

Of course, for us Disney is on the way to and from visiting family. (Hubby is a native Floridan.). And we are not big roller-coaster thrill ride people.  But we enjoy DW as much as Universal in different ways.  

We are definitely not young folks," but I think if we moved to the area after retirement (a possibility), we would probably get the "EPCOT after dark" season passes at least one year.  

8 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

Henry's desire for Anne was a major reason for his break with the Church - but I'm of the opinion something would have happened regardless. Due to his time and place, he needed a male heir. Catherine (through no fault of her own) bore many children, but only their daughter Mary lived to adulthood and Catherine was no longer able to conceive. If he didn't do something he wouldn't have the heir he needed (which is bullshit, but times have changed a great deal.)

Not only that, but Henry suffered delusions of grandeur and thought he was far more important in the European political stage then he probably was. Only a matter of time until he got tired of placating the Pope and sending them money. 

I don't think Anne herself was anything special. If it wasn't Anne who sparked Henry's interest it would have been another woman eventually. She was just the first woman with the brains to realize she wanted more than to just be a mistress - and she had the drive and ambition to pursue that goal. She also likely helped introduce Henry to new reading material not really allowed in England - namely, new books on Protestantism. So she may have helped plant the idea in his mind sooner than it would have been there otherwise.

The irony in all this is that Catherine died before Henry's son with Jane Seymour was born.  He wouldn't have needed to break with the Pope to marry her.  There are a lot of "what ifs" here... Not the least of which is that without Anne there would have been no Elizabeth the first.  

[Mela99]

2 hours ago, Zola said:

Has anybody ever been to Hershey Park? It really, truly is the sweetest smelling place on Earth.

Grew up in Altoona and took trips to Hershey all the time. Love love love love. We could all stay at the Hershey Hotel and get Peppermint Patty body treatments.

[Elvis Presby]

Tudor history is an interest of mine. 

[fraurosena]

45 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

I have this weird love for Dolly myself.  If you rewatch the episode where they go to Dollywood, they all take a picture in a group together. Josh is there, standing beside Anna, but you can see him checking out Dolly's ass as she wiggled into the photo.  Surrounded by his family and life(?) partner, and he's still ogling the goods.  He has never had an ounce of self-control. 

But, but.... don't you know, men don't have self-control... it's all Dolly's fault for not dressing modestly!

[Heathen525]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

A lot of the restrictions on upper and middle class women's behavior that the Fundies are so fond of date to the late eighteenth century and Victorian periods.  In the Middle Ages, for example, a married woman with a trade, skill or substantial property could get herself declared a "feme sole" ( this is not a misspelling of French. It is Anglo-Norman).  This would give her the standing to manage her money and write contracts be active in guilds etc. in her own right. The practice had disappeared by the mid eighteenth century, though the upper classes still used trusts and "settlements" to protect a woman's dowry from being used up by her husband.

The -ster surnames are derived from female occupations! Brewster (female brewer), Baxter (female baker), Webster (female weaver). The SAHM didn't exist till the development of the middle class. Both mother and father worked in the lower classes. In the upper classes neither worked and governesses and nannies raised the kids.

[sisterwives]

I went to Disney World this past summer in August and not gonna lie, it was probably the most miserable time of my life. I spent most of my time there crying and hiding in the air conditioned gift shops and only went on the water rides. It was just SO HOT, I felt like I couldn't breathe. Being in Florida for a week showed me that I'm not made for hot weather and the Midwest is perfect for me weather wise.

[luv2laugh]

2 minutes ago, sisterwives said:

I went to Disney World this past summer in August and not gonna lie, it was probably the most miserable time of my life. I spent most of my time there crying and hiding in the air conditioned gift shops and only went on the water rides. It was just SO HOT, I felt like I couldn't breathe. Being in Florida for a week showed me that I'm not made for hot weather and the Midwest is perfect for me weather wise.

I WISH I had that right now. I am stuck holed up here on a trip in California and it is COLD AND RAINY here. Haven't been even able to see the beach.

[livinginthelight]

12 hours ago, InThePrayerCloset said:

snip

Here is a question for all those that know fundie religious philosophy better than me... Do Gothards believe that suffering in life gives you an "express past" to heaven? I volunteered for an Anglican charity for about 4 weeks until it became clear that this charity focused on social disadvantage wasn't really into helping people in this life because their suffering on earth would speed up and ensure them salvation in heaven ... the focus was on converting them to ensure that all their suffering on earth paid off because they knew Jesus! Does Gothard / SOS have a similar philosophy? We're not going to give you clean water because, if you know Jesus, that cholera will really help you get into the express queue to heaven!

I wasn't fully immersed in fundy-ism, having been raised Lutheran but dipping my toes into the the darker side in college. I never heard anything about suffering giving an express pass to heaven. But Matthew 5: 3-4 does say:

3“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
⁴ Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.

So I think there is a sense that people who suffer may be extra blessed in the afterlife.

This is a different situation, but there is also clearly the idea that people who (already) are Christians, who suffer, must be on the right track because satan is attacking them because he's afraid of how powerfully they are working for the gospel. There is a saying , "The devil sleeps on the roof of lukewarm churches." Meaning, satan will ignore those who aren't a threat. Ergo, if you are being persecuted, you must be a threat. So you are on the right track and there is something noble in your suffering.

[MoonFace]

1 hour ago, Elvis Presby said:

Tudor history is an interest of mine. 

Love reading about all the Tudors

[Elvis Presby]

14 minutes ago, MoonFace said:

Love reading about all the Tudors

Me too!  

[momofsquid]

I have to emerge from lurkdom for the Disney discussion. Back in the '70s my parents took us to Disneyland once and Disney World once, and then we had "seen it" and were not allowed to go again. Consequently as a self-governing adult I became obsessed with Disney World*, but thanks to Real Life we haven't been able to go for the last few years. Our third and most recent trip was 2010 but there's rarely a moment I'm not planning another (unlikely) trip. I'm convinced it's like an addictive substance that some people are susceptible to and some are not. Some day I'd like to go back to Disneyland too -- this year marks the 40th anniversary of my one and only day at Disneyland. I want to wallow in the Disney history that WDW doesn't have.

Totally a Haunted Mansion fan here.

*thinking about this after the fact, I can see a disturbing parallel with Josh's situation. carry on.

[kimhoward]

1 hour ago, fraurosena said:

But, but.... don't you know, men don't have self-control... it's all Dolly's fault for not dressing modestly!

His sisters didn't yell Nike loud enough! 

1 hour ago, sisterwives said:

I went to Disney World this past summer in August and not gonna lie, it was probably the most miserable time of my life. I spent most of my time there crying and hiding in the air conditioned gift shops and only went on the water rides. It was just SO HOT, I felt like I couldn't breathe. Being in Florida for a week showed me that I'm not made for hot weather and the Midwest is perfect for me weather wise.

Never go to Florida in August!  Period.  

My cousin works at Disney and gave me some free passes to use just before Christmas. It was a nice 75 degrees and there were no crowds. Plus the tickets were free. Disney is an entirely different place when you haven't paid $90/day to be there and desperately want to eek out every last ounce of fun.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Heathen525 said:

The -ster surnames are derived from female occupations! Brewster (female brewer), Baxter (female baker), Webster (female weaver). The SAHM didn't exist till the development of the middle class. Both mother and father worked in the lower classes. In the upper classes neither worked and governesses and nannies raised the kids.

Instead of "stay at home mom" I think a better term is "domestic woman."   The concept of the SAHM is actually later and doesn't really become an issue until after WW2.  As I see it the really important change is the Industrial revolution.

 So long as the workplace and the home were closely connected, both parents worked more or less side by side and more or less at home.  The baker, brewer, apothecary, weaver, butcher and shopkeeper would typically live at the place of work and the whole family would chip in the family business.  Some of these households were very well-off, but though there might be differences in what they did, the men and women both worked "at home."  This was equally true for the peasants, the skilled workers, the yeoman farmer and the well-to-do merchants. In a different way it was true among the landed gentry and aristocracy. The lady of the house managed everything alongside her husband and took his place if he was at court or at war or just off hunting. (Ladies hunted for food also.).  

It is industrialization that changes this and it is the separation of work from home which is loosely connected to industrial production and the wealth resulting from it which eventually leads to the separation of the spheres for men and women and the idealization of the domestic woman comes about. You are right that this coincides with the "rise of the middle class" as a social force.