CA has mandatory vaccination/CA Bans Personal Belief Exemp

[JMarie]

Have you seen the page Things Anti-vaxers Say on Facebook? If not, you should. It's chalk full of all their lunacy. One of the posts from today is:

TAVS is awesome!!!!! Also, the Overheard at Wholefoods facebook page is equally full of wooey wackiness.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

TAVS is awesome!!!!! Also, the Overheard at Wholefoods facebook page is equally full of wooey wackiness.

Definitely going to check that one out. I've had my fair share of wooey wackiness at WF.

[EmmieJ]

I didn't say doctors made money from vaccines. I stated that SOMEBODY pays for them and the vaccine manufacturers are most certainly making money from the sale of the vaccines.

So? Why shouldn't the manufacturers make some money on a product they make and sell? I doubt it's anywhere near the profit margin of the designer drugs on the market today. Most people who have some type of health coverage will be able to access standard vaccines for either no cost or a low co-pay. This law says that if you want to send your children to a public school in California, you will need to vaccinate your children (unless they have a medical exemption). No one will be forced to vaccinate, if they feel very strongly against doing so. However, in conjunction with that belief, the parents will have to either homeschool, or send their child to a private school that does not require vaccination.

Fortunately, I think most parents are reasonable, realize that the slight risk of a negative reaction to a vaccine is far outweighed by the benefits to both their child and others, and want to vaccinate their children. I don't see this as a slippery slope issue at all. Especially not in the political climate that exists in California.

[FundieFarmer]

I wonder how the death in Georgiana's state will play into this. It'll definitely knock the wind out of the "well, nobody's died from it in years" sails all the anti-vaxxers seem to be sailing under.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I wonder how the death in Georgiana's state will play into this. It'll definitely knock the wind out of the "well, nobody's died from it in years" sails all the anti-vaxxers seem to be sailing under.

Well, if it's anything like how they reacted hearing about the boy dying of diphtheria in Spain, they'll probably make comments like "she didn't eat well," or "she probably had poor hygiene," or "she probably had a weakened immune system from something else," or "isn't it so convenient that they can diagnose her after she died with something she never had just so that they can claim she died of it and scare people into submission?"

ETA: I think the one argument they wont use, though, is claiming that she died because this country isn't developed. Which, they actually used for arguing why the kid in Spain died. According to them, Spain is a third world country.

[DarkAnts]

I wonder how the death in Georgiana's state will play into this. It'll definitely knock the wind out of the "well, nobody's died from it in years" sails all the anti-vaxxers seem to be sailing under.

Most people die from complications that are a side effect of the actual,disease. For instance some people who have died from the flu actually died from a secondary infection like phenomena. Communicable diesels all carry the risk of a secondary infection. So, we also have to take into account the secondary infections as well as the primary infection. The secondary infections are more likely to occur in the immune compromised population.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Most people die from complications that are a side effect of the actual,disease. For instance some people who have died from the flu actually died from a secondary infection like phenomena. Communicable diesels all carry the risk of a secondary infection. So, we also have to take into account the secondary infections as well as the primary infection. The secondary infections are more likely to occur in the immune compromised population.

And? Your point? She still died because of measles. As follows, pneumonia (which she died from) is caused by measles. She wouldn't have died of pneumonia if she hadn't contracted the measles.

Pneumonia. Measles infects the respiratory tracts of nearly all affected persons. Pneumonia is the most common severe complication of measles and accounts for most measles-associated deaths [80]. In studies of unselected hospitalized children with measles, 55% had radiographic changes of bronchopneumonia, consolidation, or other infiltrates; 77% of children with severe disease and 41% of children with mild disease had radiographic changes [81]. In recent years, pneumonia was present in 9% of children <5 years old with measles in the United States (table 2), in 0%–8% of cases during outbreaks [82—87], and in 49%–57% of adults [88, 89].

Pneumonia maybe caused by measles virus alone, secondary viral infection with adenovirus or HSV, or secondary bacterial infection [39,80,90]. Measles is one cause of Hecht's giant cell pneumonia, which usually occurs in immunocompromised persons but can occur in otherwise normal adults and children [46,91–94]. Studies that included culture of blood, lung punctures, or tracheal aspirations revealed bacteria as the cause of 25%–35% of measles-associated pneumonia. S. pneumoniae, S. aureus, and H. influenzae were the most commonly isolated organisms [39, 80]. Other bacteria (e.g.Pseudomonas species,Klebsiella pneumoniae, and E. coif) are less common causes of severe pneumonia associated with measles. In studies of young adult military recruits with pneumonia associated with measles, Neisseria meningitidis was a probable cause in some cases [85, 95].

Pneumomediastinum and mediastinal emphysema have been reported as complications of measles in several countries [58, 60], 90, 96. Some children have the clinical pattern of bronchiolitis [39]. Because viral cultures are not always done, the possibility of coinfection with other respiratory viruses cannot be ruled out.

jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S4.long

[nelliebelle1197]

I'm hestitant to post in this thread because it's moving quickly and I don't have any additional information...but ABC news just reported that the US just had its first measles death in 12 years. The patient/victim was a young woman from Washington, measles were discovered via autopsy. She reportedly displayed no symptoms. (That's all I know).

Oh, silly tapdancer. You really think a life is worth taking CHOICE away from people on public health issues? :lol:

My son had a reaction to his 4 year old vaccines. He was fine in a day or so. I would rather have him suffer a day of fever than die from measles.

[FundieFarmer]

Well, if it's anything like how they reacted hearing about the boy dying of diphtheria in Spain, they'll probably make comments like "she didn't eat well," or "she probably had poor hygiene," or "she probably had a weakened immune system from something else," or "isn't it so convenient that they can diagnose her after she died with something she never had just so that they can claim she died of it and scare people into submission?"

ETA: I think the one argument they wont use, though, is claiming that she died because this country isn't developed. Which, they actually used for arguing why the kid in Spain died. According to them, Spain is a third world country.

Oh good. Then we'll have the fundies hollering about how she didn't use essential oils!

[OkToBeTakei]

I find forcing vaccines on people distasteful. I should add that as previous posters have stated in this very thread that some people are harmed by vaccines. How does that fit with your "do no harm" argument?

And therein lies the problems with vaccine safety. We can't prove that a vaccine did or didn't cause my autoimmune condition or at least contribute to it. But my doctor seemed to think that for me the flu shot should be waived. I didn't have to do any coercion or pleading. I just asked. Am I glad I don't have to get it? Absolutely! The CDC says that even in a good year it's only 50% effective, at best. But yet we are mandating this on people so that hospitals can get their full Medicare reimbursement? I think that's wrong. There are plenty of arguments against the flu vaccine. What's next-a vaccine for the common cold?

So you are pleased you no longer need to get the flu vac. You know I could almost understand and might be more sympathetic to your supposed issues with the vaccine if it was not for the attitude you are displaying on this thread. You are more concerned with coming up with (very badly incidentally) arguments reasons to support your beliefs ( which also seem to change, confusing.)

I'm not going to answer your question because it's ridiculous and I am going to assume you knew that but could not come up with anything better.

Every medication has the potential to be harmful. Not all patients have the capacity to consent this not the black and white issue you are attempting to make it.

What is pretty black and white is you feel no ethical responsibility to protect vulnerable patients from exposure to influenza because of your own beliefs and are unapologetic about this. The reason you give is 'oh well' it's only probably 50% effective anyway. As I said above to some extent I could sympathise with your own personal physical problems if it were not for the fact you do not even consider the consequences, or appear to care beyond your own experience and well being.

I also sincerely doubt you explain every medication, what it is used for, potential side effects, interactions, benefits and potential detrimental effects of every single drug to every single patient you dispense to. That must make for one extremely long medication round. I would love to hear how that works out on for example a 30 bedded post op unit. You must be very popular with your colleagues, not to mention poor practice regarding dispensing of medication correctly.

On a completely different note, what the hell is 'undeserved community?'

I've picked out parts of posts rather than continue the mega quotes.

[formergothardite]

Threads like this make me start wondering about all the nurses I come in contact with. They seem so reasonable, but are they really on the internet spouting crazy and believing the stuff written on wacky blogs?

[apple1]

Threads like this make me start wondering about all the nurses I come in contact with. They seem so reasonable, but are they really on the internet spouting crazy and believing the stuff written on wacky blogs?

I don't think so.

[Snarkylark]

So you are pleased you no longer need to get the flu vac. You know I could almost understand and might be more sympathetic to your supposed issues with the vaccine if it was not for the attitude you are displaying on this thread. You are more concerned with coming up with (very badly incidentally) arguments reasons to support your beliefs ( which also seem to change, confusing.)

I'm not going to answer your question because it's ridiculous and I am going to assume you knew that but could not come up with anything better.

Every medication has the potential to be harmful. Not all patients have the capacity to consent this not the black and white issue you are attempting to make it.

What is pretty black and white is you feel no ethical responsibility to protect vulnerable patients from exposure to influenza because of your own beliefs and are unapologetic about this. The reason you give is 'oh well' it's only probably 50% effective anyway. As I said above to some extent I could sympathise with your own personal physical problems if it were not for the fact you do not even consider the consequences, or appear to care beyond your own experience and well being.

I also sincerely doubt you explain every medication, what it is used for, potential side effects, interactions, benefits and potential detrimental effects of every single drug to every single patient you dispense to. That must make for one extremely long medication round. I would love to hear how that works out on for example a 30 bedded post op unit. You must be very popular with your colleagues, not to mention poor practice regarding dispensing of medication correctly.

On a completely different note, what the hell is 'undeserved community?'

I've picked out parts of posts rather than continue the mega quotes.

Should read "underserved" community, patients without health care. They still exist. We have a clinic of 100% volunteers working there to help them.

My job is not on a medical floor. I'm not going to give out which dept or unit I work in for obvious reasons. I protect my patients by using standard precautions, washing my hands, and not coming to work sick or coughing or sneezing on my patients. That's how the flu virus spreads. One does not NEED to have a flu shot to protect their patients. You can go straight to the CDC's website and see that even in the BEST year, the flu shot is only expected to be 50% effective. This past year it was 19%. The flu is not airborne in that it doesn't hang around in the air for minutes like TB or measles can. One has to be within 3 feet of a cough or sneeze from an infected person or have direct contact with respiratory secretions from someone carrying the virus and then touch their mouth, nose, or eyes.

[apple1]

What is pretty black and white is you feel no ethical responsibility to protect vulnerable patients from exposure to influenza because of your own beliefs and are unapologetic about this. The reason you give is 'oh well' it's only probably 50% effective anyway. As I said above to some extent I could sympathise with your own personal physical problems if it were not for the fact you do not even consider the consequences, or appear to care beyond your own experience and well being.

Nailed it.

The bolded is the primary reason hospitals require flu vacc for employees - and enforce the requirement.

My place of employment has terminated employment for failure to comply (a rare instance). They do permit employees with documented ACTUAL contraindication exemption, but those employees are required to wear a mask at work throughout the (lengthy) flu season. (Would you really want to wear a mask all that time if you didn't have to?) Of course, if you contract illness, you are off work, using up your PTO...

But seriously, hospitals can't have employees running around transmitting preventable illness to vulnerable patients (in my hospital, pediatric patients, including premature neonates, children going through bone marrow transplant, cancer treatment, cystic fibrosis, and so on).

I find it hard to believe snarkylark's hospital doesn't likewise require a mask for employees exempted from flu vacc.

Then again, there are other parts of her narrative that don't make sense, either.

[Snarkylark]

Nailed it.

The bolded is the primary reason hospitals require flu vacc for employees - and enforce the requirement.

My place of employment has terminated employment for failure to comply (a rare instance). They do permit employees with documented ACTUAL contraindication exemption, but those employees are required to wear a mask at work throughout the (lengthy) flu season. (Would you really want to wear a mask all that time if you didn't have to?) Of course, if you contract illness, you are off work, using up your PTO...

But seriously, hospitals can't have employees running around transmitting preventable illness to vulnerable patients (in my hospital, pediatric patients, including premature neonates, children going through bone marrow transplant, cancer treatment, cystic fibrosis, and so on).

I find it hard to believe snarkylark's hospital doesn't likewise require a mask for employees exempted from flu vacc.

Then again, there are other parts of her narrative that don't make sense, either.

There are plenty of hospitals that don't require flu vaccinations as a condition of employment or masks. My employer had said years ago that they were going to require masks for those who opted out of the shot but then they started requiring the shot and dropped the mask requirement.

[formergothardite]

So have you gotten time to read my post debunking the CVC "debunking herd immunity" info? I was nice and did another one for you to show how they twist the info. Are you still going to say that it is a reliable source of information?

[OkToBeTakei]

I've figured it out so you don't have to divulge your dept.

Staff Nurse Mitty.

Dept of Anal Cavity Contents.

St. Elsewhere.

[Snarkylark]

The CDC also does not recommend that unvaccinated healthcare workers with no respiratory symptoms should wear a mask. They recommend masks for patients or healthcare workers who are showing respiratory symptoms that COULD be the flu or if one is taking care of such a patient.

[Snarkylark]

I've figured it out so you don't have to divulge your dept.

Staff Nurse Mitty.

Dept of Anal Cavity Contents.

St. Elsewhere.

I don't see how insulting anyone helps your argument. The fears that antivaxxers have are legitimate to them and by resorting to name calling and insulting their intelligence, whether you agree or not, is not productive.

[formergothardite]

I really want to know! Are you still going to say that the Cali Vax Choice website provide correct information even though they twisted info to meet an agenda?

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I don't think so.

I want to say no. At least, not the majority of them. But, then, the internet has surprised me before.

[apple1]

The CDC recommends that all healthcare workers receive flu vacc annually.

For the 2013-14 season, 75% of all US healthcare workers (including non-clinical personnel) were flu-vacced.

90% of hospital employees were vacced nationwide.

98% of healthcare workers working where flu vacc was mandated were vacced.

Multiple studies have demonstrated health benefits to patients, including reduced flu-related complications and reduced risk of death, with vaccination of healthcare personnel in long term care settings.

Most adults who contract flu are contagious for 24 hours prior to having symptoms develop.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm still not sure that this person is even a nurse. All day I've been looking for any real sign that she's actually a nurse, but there hasn't been anything that makes it plausible.... I going to firmly plant myself in the "this is an antivaxxing troll" camp.

edited because I forgot to finish my sentence.

[Snarkylark]

I'm still not sure that this person is even a nurse. All day I've been looking for any real sign that she's actually a nurse, but there hasn't been anything that makes it plausible.... I going to firmly plant myself in the "this is an antivaxxing troll" camp.

edited because I forgot to finish my sentence.

I'm interested to know how I can "prove" to you that I'm a nurse without posting my name and license number??

I have also stated numerous times that I am not an antivaxxer but that I am opposed to mandatory medical procedures. I'm not sure why that language is hard to understand. One day you might find yourself on the other side of the issue and I would be there standing up for you.

[formergothardite]

I find it fascinating that you don't want to talk about how that "Debunking Herd Immunity" link you provided was filled twisting of facts and lying by omission.