Confederate Flag

[CloakNDagger]

I still think that enslaving a person like that would be wrong. People aren't objects to be owned by another person. I do think that something like you suggest would work, just not turning people into slaves. Let people work to help pay back the damage, but slavery? Nope.

You may actually owe them your time, though. After all, the money you are forced to pay to all kinds of entities represents your hours in a day.

It's a matter of terminology. You can very much be a "slave" if you have a limited skill set - no where else to go, a salary, and a boss that wants you at his beck and call. Or, you can be caged up because you smoked a bit of weed... either one is bad, one is worse. Indentured servanthood, with a time limit and civil crimes for mistreating the servant used to be a means of rehabilitation and probably no better or worse than welfare is today.

If you have a fixed amount of work / wages to be given to the person you wronged or damaged their property, the person you damaged should get the compensation, not some agency. Like if you hit a car, the emphasis should be on fixing the other person's car and person, not on giving money to several other departments. I know of delinquent dads who intentionally work as little as possible so they "can't" pay their child support. I would be fine seeing them working for someone under circumstances where they didn't actually get rewarded for being deadbeats. They'd rather go to jail than support the kid they are responsible for.

[twinmama]

If I removed everything others found offensive or asked others to remove everything I found offensive, nothing would be left. The truth is something will always some and not others. I detest rap music that talks about violence against women, but Im not calling for the removal which brings to mind the double standards of the country. Maybe we shouldnt fly the US flag.

I can hardly find anything on the same level of hurt as slavery for African Americans. Their ancestors were literally bought and sold as property. Not to Godwin, but the Holocaust is really the only comparison I can even come up with. If you aren't willing to fly the Nazi flag in pride, or happily let someone else do so, how can you fly the Confederate battle flag? It means the SAME THING and runs the same risk of inflicting deep hurt on innocent people. The hurt rap music inflicts on people may be deep, but please don't compare it to slavery.

[formergothardite]

You may actually owe them your time, though. After all, the money you are forced to pay to all kinds of entities represents your hours in a day.

It's a matter of terminology. You can very much be a "slave" if you have a limited skill set - no where else to go, a salary, and a boss that wants you at his beck and call. Or, you can be caged up because you smoked a bit of weed... either one is bad, one is worse. Indentured servanthood, with a time limit and civil crimes for mistreating the servant used to be a means of rehabilitation and probably no better or worse than welfare is today.

If you have a fixed amount of work / wages to be given to the person you wronged or damaged their property, the person you damaged should get the compensation, not some agency. Like if you hit a car, the emphasis should be on fixing the other person's car and person, not on giving money to several other departments. I know of delinquent dads who intentionally work as little as possible so they "can't" pay their child support. I would be fine seeing them working for someone under circumstances where they didn't actually get rewarded for being deadbeats. They'd rather go to jail than support the kid they are responsible for.

Oh good grief. Do you really not see the difference between enslaving a person and a person working a job that they don't like because they aren't currently skilled to do anything else? WTF do you think slavery is? In one case an enslaved person has no chance of escape because they are OWNED by another person. In the other it might be very hard to leave the job and learn more skills, but there is still that chance that they can and they aren't OWNED by another person.

Even with the deadbeat dads, the solution is not turning people into objects that are OWNED by another person. Seriously, you think it is okay for one person to own another like they are an object or an animal?

[DeFrauder]

The attitudes were certainly different here in the States than in England. It IS a shame that it couldn't have been done without a war.

Yet, the British sided with the South. They wanted that cheap cotton to keep spinning.

[CloakNDagger]

Oh good grief. Do you really not see the difference between enslaving a person and a person working a job that they don't like because they aren't currently skilled to do anything else? WTF do you think slavery is? In one case an enslaved person has no chance of escape because they are OWNED by another person. In the other it might be very hard to leave the job and learn more skills, but there is still that chance that they can and they aren't OWNED by another person.

Even with the deadbeat dads, the solution is not turning people into objects that are OWNED by another person. Seriously, you think it is okay for one person to own another like they are an object or an animal?

I see a difference in being indentured for a cause, such as crime, and because of your skin color, or who your daddy was. Our society is content to essentially own many, many black people because of a stupid "drug war". The government may not claim that they own you, but you are NOT free to go and you become a drain to the taxpayers. There's no win in our current system.

[formergothardite]

Really, what do you think slavery is? Since apparently you think it is a good idea, can you describe it? Because there is absolutely no case where I think it is okay for one person to own another. But you do.

A solution to problems in American society is complicated and doesn't involve enslaving people like you suggest. The idea of turning people into slaves is horrifying to me. And if your idea happened, who do you think is going to end up as slaves more often? Black people or white people? Who would end up as slave? Rich people or poor people?

The reality of it is, while your idea wouldn't specifically say that people would be enslaved because of who their father is, they would be. Because the people who have rich fathers with power wouldn't end up as slaves, the people with poor fathers who come from at-risk backgrounds, they would be the slaves.

[CloakNDagger]

Really, what do you think slavery is? Since apparently you think it is a good idea, can you describe it? Because there is absolutely no case where I think it is okay for one person to own another. But you do.

A solution to problems in American society is complicated and doesn't involve enslaving people like you suggest. The idea of turning people into slaves is horrifying to me. And if your idea happened, who do you think is going to end up as slaves more often? Black people or white people?

Here's the old definition:

Bondage; the state of entire subjection of one person to the will of another. slavery is the obligation to labor for the benefit of the master, without the contract of consent of the servant. slavery may proceed from crimes, from captivity or from debt. slavery is also voluntary or involuntary; voluntary, when a person sells or yields his own person to the absolute command of another; involuntary, when he is placed under the absolute power of another without his own consent.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/slavery

Right now we have a system where in a "three strikes" environment where for doing NO harm to anyone else but relaxing in your back yard and smoking a joint while your white redneck neighbor is drinking himself drunk next door - literally, 'cause I've seen it - a young black male goes to jail for a LONG time. It is NOT by consent or contract, and he is there involuntary, I guarantee you. That's wrong, right? I'd bet you are FINE with a murderer being locked up - right? Honestly, I don't think anything's changed. I think racist white people that aren't just in the South, are still finding ways to oppress the poor, and especially the black poor, but also the Hispanic. In reality, most of the drug war "crimes" and a host of other petty contrived offenses need to be done away with, and the only enslavement should be for real damage to the life or well-being of others, but should be strictly limited to the restoration of such.

[formergothardite]

Here's the old definition:

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/slavery

Right now we have a system where in a "three strikes" environment where for doing NO harm to anyone else but relaxing in your back yard and smoking a joint while your white redneck neighbor is drinking himself drunk next door - literally, 'cause I've seen it - a young black male goes to jail for a LONG time. It is NOT by consent or contract, and he is there involuntary, I guarantee you. That's wrong, right? I'd bet you are FINE with a murderer being locked up - right? Honestly, I don't think anything's changed. I think racist white people that aren't just in the South, are still finding ways to oppress the poor, and especially the black poor, but also the Hispanic. In reality, most of the drug war "crimes" and a host of other petty contrived offenses need to be done away with, and the only enslavement should be for real damage to the life or well-being of others, but should be strictly limited to the restoration of such.

So you want to switch to a system where the poor black people are turned into slaves? Because just like your "well just let them be slaves for 10 more years and the South will voluntarily do away with it and everything would be sooooooo much better" this idea would work horribly in reality.

My thoughts on the justice system is that it should be less punitive. Not a popular opinion but I think instead of punishing people there should be more of an effort to address the underlying problems that would cause a young, poor black teen to go rob someone. Sticking him in jail wouldn't do it. Neither would making him a slave like you suggest. Especially since the rich white kid whose daddy has connections would not be turned into a slave for robbery. So you are creating a system where a person is more likely to be enslaved because of who their parents are and where they are born.

As for murder, the consequence of becoming a danger to society is that you don't get to be in society. You shouldn't be turned into a slave. Because a society that turns people into slaves is not a good one. There is a difference between jail and slavery. I"m betting that if you went to people in jail and told them they could be slaves or remain in jail, most would stick with jail. I would choose jail.

[CloakNDagger]

So you want to switch to a system where the poor black people are turned into slaves? Because just like your "well just let them be slaves for 10 more years and the South will voluntarily do away with it and everything would be sooooooo much better" this idea would work horribly in reality.

My thoughts on the justice system is that it should be less punitive. Not a popular opinion but I think instead of punishing people there should be more of an effort to address the underlying problems that would cause a young, poor black teen to go rob someone. Sticking him in jail wouldn't do it. Neither would making him a slave like you suggest. Especially since the rich white kid whose daddy has connections would not be turned into a slave for robbery. So you are creating a system where a person is more likely to be enslaved because of who their parents are and where they are born.

As for murder, the consequence of becoming a danger to society is that you don't get to be in society. You shouldn't be turned into a slave. Because a society that turns people into slaves is not a good one. There is a difference between jail and slavery. I"m betting that if you went to people in jail and told them they could be slaves or remain in jail, most would stick with jail. I would choose jail.

1) That is NOT what I said. I'm saying that the laws are twisted in such a way that we actually have a defacto system of enslaving them still, and it's wrong.

2) Your way, my way - all involve force somewhere. I'm for less punative as well. Would much rather see someone assigned for a defined period of time where they would learn a trade, or do something productive than be locked up. It doesn't have to be complete ownership - and I wouldn't want to see it as that - but you have to stay here and work X hours for X person / company in lieu of jail time, and they have to treat you well, feed you, and let you go into society with a small, but reasonable wad of cash to restart.

3) Yeah, we already have the rich white kid deal going on right now. Had a client get off a MAJOR traffic ticket because he had the money and the connections...

[formergothardite]

Our system is wrong, but just making people slaves wouldn't fix it and would just create a system where poor black people are slaves to the rich white people. That is the reality of it and we need to deal with reality.

Letting someone choose a trade to learn and having a brief period of their day assigned to work isn't slavery.

The reality of it is that there are way too many things that could go wrong with your plan. Enslaving people, even criminals, has historically never been a good idea. Because of human nature what would most likely happen is that the businesses/people who got slaves would start wanting more slaves. And you don't think that the good old boy system would kick in? You don't think that they would be calling in favors saying that they needed more slaves so make sure that more people are arrested and enslaved? The people who were turned into slaves would be the vulnerable, at risk people in our society. THAT is what would happen.

[HereticHick]

There are waaay too many white folks in the US today who are spending waaay too much of their time thinking up increasingly convoluted intellectual arguments about how "slavery is really equal to this, that or the other, therefore it wasn't so bad" to make them feel better about their Confederate ancestors and themselves.

Just stop it, people. Admit that the Confederacy was wrong. Admit that there is NO EXCUSE for slavery. Ever. Get on with your lives. Trust me, you will not somehow become less of a person because you admit your ancestors did evil things [i haven't!! Some of my German friends haven't either!]

We've been putting up with these Confederacy apologists for 150 freaking years in the United States. I'm so glad we've finally stood up and said "enough."

[Geechee Girl]

The U.S. has had a system like CloakNDagger describes. It was the period just after Emancipation, and it is Slavery by Another Name.

[formergothardite]

Thank you for sharing that Geechee Girl. I had no idea. I'm going to sit down and watch the whole video soon. It is amazing that things like this can be almost forgotten from history.

HereticHIck, you said it so much better than I could. It really downplays how bad slavery is to claim it is equal to things like being in jail or just being an American citizen.

CnD, your posts give the impression that you still are wanting to believe that the South wasn't entirely bad, especially when it came to slavery. Maybe you don't mean to do that or maybe you don't even realize you are, but that is how it comes off. Think about why you find it offensive that the Confederate flag isn't any better than the Nazi flag. Does some part of you still think that the South wasn't that bad?

[CloakNDagger]

CnD, your posts give the impression that you still are wanting to believe that the South wasn't entirely bad, especially when it came to slavery. Maybe you don't mean to do that or maybe you don't even realize you are, but that is how it comes off. Think about why you find it offensive that the Confederate flag isn't any better than the Nazi flag. Does some part of you still think that the South wasn't that bad?

You're free to keep reading into my posts whatever you like, but you're wrong.

I think the South was wrong to have black slaves as a matter of race and a racist belief that they were inferior. If I had seen these documents at any point in the previous number of years, I would have been seriously troubled, as I am now by them.

Using the the Declaration of Secession for Texas for instance (link here unbroken because it's a GOOD idea for people to read them):

https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/s ... b1861.html I unequivocally state that I completely disagree with the racists statements in that and other documents such as those highlighted:

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.

That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States.

Regarding the Nazi flag vs. the Confederate flag, I sure as h#11 would prefer to be a black slave on a Southern plantation over a Jew in a concentration camp. I admit that there were probably any number of plantations I would not want to be on, but the basic (wrong) tenant that they were property at least meant they would be maintained to be useful. At least as long as I was healthy and could work I could probably expect to eat enough to be capable of working and maybe escaping in the future. I do believe it is absolutely wrong to enslave a race (based on a clear twisting of Scripture - clearly the Bible teaches all men WERE created from the same blood), to engage in manstealing, and generally to enslave anyone that has not committed a crime or entered into such a state willingly. That said, it's still not as BAD as outright murder - maybe just a hair less, because I believe that Exodus 21:16 makes the actual act of manstealing qualify for the death penalty (ie. I think that the slave traders deserved whatever was done to them and could be lawfully engaged with arms, and those who initially purchase from them, North and South were guilty of rewarding them instead of hanging them). I do believe in degrees of wrong, some of which are death penalty items, some of which only require restoration of loss.

[formergothardite]

You still don't seem to be grasping the horrors of slavery.

You don't like the idea of the Confederate flag being compared to the Nazi one because you really don't seem to think that the slaves had it that bad. To choose which horror to endure is almost unthinkable. You casually toss out that you would choose to be a "maintained" slave yet ignore the pain and suffering of those "maintained" slaves endured almost every moment of their lives. The mothers whose children were torn from their arms never to be seen again. The children who were ripped from the arms of their mothers and beaten for crying. The young girls and women who were brutally raped. The men who were beaten to death. The people who tried to escape but were caught, tortured, crippled for life and then forced to work hard despite their pain. The list can go on. Don't fool yourself into thinking that slavery was somehow not an atrocity. Don't think that it was better because the slaves were killed slowly.

And watch that video and learn from history. Slavery was only legal if a person committed a crime. Want to take a guess at how that ended? Want to guess how it would end again if it became legal to make prisoners slaves?

[formergothardite]

CnD, you seem to be under the illusion that slaves were generally well fed, clothed and taken care of. But that isn't what happened. Sure there were some masters who took good care, but many didn't. From my own home state here is a little history of how slaves were cared for:

Daily life for a slave in North Carolina was incredibly difficult. Slaves, especially those in the field, worked from sunrise until sunset. Even small children and the elderly were not exempt from these long work hours

The diet supplied by slaveholders was generally poor

Many slave owners did not provide adequate clothing, and slave mothers often worked to clothe their families at night after long days of labor. One visitor to colonial North Carolina wrote that slaveholders rarely gave their slaves meat or fish, and that he witnessed many slaves wearing only rags.

Shelter provided by slave owners was also meager. Many slaves lived in small stick houses with dirt floors, not the log slave cabins often depicted in books and films. These shelters had cracks in the walls that let in cold and wind, and had only thin coverings over the windows.

Masters could break up marriages and separate families as they wished.

The slave trade in North Carolina separated countless husbands, wives, parents and children. On the whole, slaveholders cared little about the kindred bonds of slaves, and tore families apart by selling slaves for profit.

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchi ... ellum/5602

Slavery wasn't this "maintained" idea that you seem to think it was.

[CloakNDagger]

And why do you think "manstealing" was a death penalty in Exodus??? I do get it. Still beats a gas chamber.

[Vivi_music]

Ah, jeepers, that was in my feed, too. But more of a :angry-banghead: than a face-palm. . . .

I know you posted this a while ago. Just my two cents here. If you ever see this image again on your Facebook feed, please feel free to tell the person who posted that it's inaccurate.

Historians now believe most monuments in Ancient Egypt were built by workers and not slaves. The more archeologists and egyptologists search, the more probable it is the people that actually built the Gizeh pyramids lived near the construction site and were respected for their work. A series of burial sites were found near the pyramids. Which would be a proof that the workers had the honor to be buried near their king, and it meant they were highly considered in the social scale and certainly not slaves.

/Ok, stop me now. I'm going on a history diarrhea.

Great article: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/j ... aves-egypt not breaking the link, the Guardian is a good source.

And an excellent way to stop bigots who try to use Ancient history (wrongly) to defend the Confederate flag. :P

[DeFrauder]

For a good depiction of the horrors of slavery, "Roots" is a good read. It goes beyond the physical hardships of slavery and gets to the meat of the emotional aspects.

[formergothardite]

And why do you think "manstealing" was a death penalty in Exodus??? I do get it. Still beats a gas chamber.

No, you don't get it. Why do you think I give any shits about what Exodus says? Is this why you keep defending slavery? Is this why you want to act like killing people slowly is okay? Because to admit slavery is wrong is to admit that the Bible supported something that is morally wrong?

Enslaving someone is always wrong. You were provided with the historical proof of what happened when your grand idea to enslave prisoners actually took place in America and you ignored it. You seem to believe that slaves were well taken care of, which typically isn't what happened. You want to believe that the Southern act of slavery wasn't a horrible act against humanity. So horrible that it can be placed in the same category as other horrible acts against humanity. You still want to hold on to that Confederate flag and act like it didn't stand for an act so cruel that it can be placed with all the other flags that only stood for crimes against humanity.

[formergothardite]

The U.S. has had a system like CloakNDagger describes. It was the period just after Emancipation, and it is Slavery by Another Name.

I've just really started watching this and one of the things I think is interesting and the people who are big into state rights should pay attention to, is that right after slavery ended and the federal government was really running things in the South, things improved for the former slaves. Yes, there were still the racists around who were bitter about slavery ending, but there were black judges, black people on juries and black people being able to vote. It wasn't till the federal government stepped away and let the local/states start running things again that the harsh laws against black people popped up. Rabid support of state rights is not always a good idea and there are plenty of cases where it is a damn bad idea. You can even see this today with gay marriage. If NC could get away with it gay marriage wouldn't be legal, gay people couldn't adopt children and businesses could discriminate against gay people. It took the federal government telling NC that they can't do these things for it to end.

[HarryPotterFan]

Considering the racism that still plagues the American justice system (police brutality against blacks, black people are more often incarcerated than whites for the same crime and receive harsher sentencing, the incarceration rate of black people as compared to other races) and racial divide within prisons do you honestly believe that enslaving prisoners would NOT turn into a race issue?

[VelociRapture]

For a good depiction of the horrors of slavery, "Roots" is a good read. It goes beyond the physical hardships of slavery and gets to the meat of the emotional aspects.

I've never seen the movie or read the book, but it's always interested me. I'll have to see about adding it to my reading list.

Considering the racism that still plagues the American justice system (police brutality against blacks, black people are more often incarcerated than whites for the same crime and receive harsher sentencing, the incarceration rate of black people as compared to other races) and racial divide within prisons do you honestly believe that enslaving prisoners would NOT turn into a race issue?

I honestly don't see how it couldn't turn into a race issue unfortunately.

As a nation we have made great strides towards equality for all - but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done and a lot of attitudes that need to be changed before we truly have equality.

[formergothardite]

Even if it didn't turn into a race issue(which it would) it would still on a moral level be wrong to turn people into slaves.

[Srilaura]

Upcoming kkk rally in Arkansas

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/ar ... -kkk-rally