Confederate Flag

[formergothardite]

Whats a disgrace to all the US is these South hating individuals forget how the Indians were ran off their land and slavery just didnt start in 1860 America. Heck, at least 8 US presidents had slaves. And when the slaves were freed, they still werent' equal to whites.

True this flag doesnt need to be on gov buildings, but I can think of plenty of things that offend me more than a 150ish yr old flag.

Anyone can rewrite history to say what they want it to. For years, I believed what was taught in the books about the CIvil War. Unlike many people on the subject, I'm willing to hear other opinions. The South haters can just keep believing what they want. I can equally stereotype other regions.

I'm not a South hater, I live and love living in the South. I'm not willing to base decisions on something this offensive based on the opinions of people who believe fake history. The reality is(and yes, I did lots of studying, including reading the actual Confederate Constitution, something most people who defend the flag have never done, because it makes it clear the war was not about state rights) this is a battle flag used in a battle to keep people enslaved. It isn't anything to be proud of. This doesn't mean that there wasn't and isn't racism in other parts of the country, but it is down right foolish to pretend that this flag is about anything but enslaving people.

Does the Nazi flag offend you more than the Confederate flag? Just wondering how they are different in your mind if one is offensive and one isn't.

[CloakNDagger]

I'm not a South hater, I live and love living in the South. I'm not willing to base decisions on something this offensive based on the opinions of people who believe fake history. The reality is(and yes, I did lots of studying, including reading the actual Confederate Constitution, something most people who defend the flag have never done, because it makes it clear the war was not about state rights) this is a battle flag used in a battle to keep people enslaved. It isn't anything to be proud of. This doesn't mean that there wasn't and isn't racism in other parts of the country, but it is down right foolish to pretend that this flag is about anything but enslaving people.

Does the Nazi flag offend you more than the Confederate flag? Just wondering how they are different in your mind if one is offensive and one isn't.

I am no longer interested in defending the Confederate flag, but to compare it to the Nazi flag is over the top. Both stand for things I despise, but with significantly differing degrees of wrong. Hitler wanted world domination, the South wanted to be left to govern their own affairs, Germany murdered millions for simply existing, the South had economic incentive to keep their immorally enslaved "property" alive. For that matter the U.S. flag is racist and genocidal towards the Native Americans. I mean raiding their villages and killing innocent women and children isn't exactly the actions of a progressive society.

[formergothardite]

I am no longer interested in defending the Confederate flag, but to compare it to the Nazi flag is over the top. Both stand for things I despise, but with significantly differing degrees of wrong. Hitler wanted world domination, the South wanted to be left to govern their own affairs, Germany murdered millions for simply existing, the South had economic incentive to keep their immorally enslaved "property" alive. For that matter the U.S. flag is racist and genocidal towards the Native Americans. I mean raiding their villages and killing innocent women and children isn't exactly the actions of a progressive society.

No longer interested because you realize it stands, not for state rights, but for slavery? Or no longer interested because your still really think the South was the good guys but you realize you can't defend the Confederacy here?

Actually the comparison is accurate because in both cases the flag represents a group that viewed another group as not humans and because of that belief did horrible, horrible things. What the South wanted was to keep a group of people as slaves and continue viewing them as objects, not real humans. They also wanted to expand their territory to have more slave states. You might not be meaning to do it, but your post pretty much downplays the atrocities committed by slave owners and how the Confederacy made it illegal to end slavery.

Oh, I think some pretty damn horrible things have been done with the American flag and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise. I'm not exactly the most patriotic person around and wouldn't be opposed to a change of flag that took into account that genocide was committed under the American flag.

ETA: Slaves were also used for medical experiments. Typically without any of the pain medication that was available at the time because they weren't seen as worth having any sort of pain medication.

[CloakNDagger]

No longer interested because you realize it stands, not for state rights, but for slavery? Or no longer interested because your still really think the South was the good guys but you realize you can't defend the Confederacy here?

Reading the Texas and South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession pretty much torpedoed my appreciation of the States Rights argument. In general, I believe that the way the war went down was genuinely bad for the whole country and destroyed the original system, but the South was horribly wrong in their beliefs about black people being inferior. It's funny, but the group of people I was with were very very big on original documents and intent but I never ever saw those declarations of causes. They are pretty damning. Can't pick and choose which original documents you read if you want to know the truth. It is frustrating to me though, but I think some of y'all like RosyDaisy need to understand that if you only read what you were supposed to read and were a "good kid" who didn't rebel and were under intense but un-recognized pressure to conform, it takes some time to realize that maybe you weren't told the whole truth about various things.

[DowntownAbbey]

There is a difference, in my mind, between the American flag and the Confederate/Nazi flags. The Confederate and Nazi flags are associated with specific points in history. There usage after the fact is generally, even subconsciously, tied to that period in history. The American flag represents over two centuries of history. The American flag was the flag of the genocide committed against the Native Americans, the flag of that the Trail of Tears was done under, but it's not the only thing it's associated with.

Note: I'm not trying to say that the good done under the auspices of the American flag outweighs things like the Trail of Tears, WWII Japanese internment camps. Just that there's a difference in the scope of history represented by the different flags.

[formergothardite]

Reading the Texas and South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession pretty much torpedoed my appreciation of the States Rights argument. In general, I believe that the way the war went down was genuinely bad for the whole country and destroyed the original system, but the South was horribly wrong in their beliefs about black people being inferior. It's funny, but the group of people I was with were very very big on original documents and intent but I never ever saw those declarations of causes. They are pretty damning. Can't pick and choose which original documents you read if you want to know the truth. It is frustrating to me though, but I think some of y'all like RosyDaisy need to understand that if you only read what you were supposed to read and were a "good kid" who didn't rebel and were under intense but un-recognized pressure to conform, it takes some time to realize that maybe you weren't told the whole truth about various things.

I understand this. Lying for Jesus is pretty rampant in most conservative Christian circles. It was hard to accept that so many things I believed weren't true.

I can see DowntownAbbey's point about the American flag too. I still think the Nazi flag and the Rebel/Confederate flag is a good comparison. Especially since supporters of both seem to downplay the bad history these flags were created for. These flags never stood for anything good, they only stood for the support of atrocities.

[samurai_sarah]

Reading the Texas and South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession pretty much torpedoed my appreciation of the States Rights argument. In general, I believe that the way the war went down was genuinely bad for the whole country and destroyed the original system, but the South was horribly wrong in their beliefs about black people being inferior. It's funny, but the group of people I was with were very very big on original documents and intent but I never ever saw those declarations of causes. They are pretty damning. Can't pick and choose which original documents you read if you want to know the truth. It is frustrating to me though, but I think some of y'all like RosyDaisy need to understand that if you only read what you were supposed to read and were a "good kid" who didn't rebel and were under intense but un-recognized pressure to conform, it takes some time to realize that maybe you weren't told the whole truth about various things.

Let me get that straight: You're quite sorry, but really the economy and the original system justified the suffering of millions. Also you aren't to blame for your ignorance, because you were never taught simple compassion? Did I get that right?

[CloakNDagger]

Let me get that straight: You're quite sorry, but really the economy and the original system justified the suffering of millions. Also you aren't to blame for your ignorance, because you were never taught simple compassion? Did I get that right?

Reading fail.

[twinmama]

Haven't read through this whole thing, but just want to point out, the flag everyone is getting so upset about is NOT the Confederate flag. It is Robert E. Lee's battleflag. (husband is a civil war buff). The confederate flag looks completely different. You'd think Southerners would bother to learn these things.

Just sayin.

I ALWAYS want to bring that up when people defend their use of the flag by saying it's about Southern pride and history and whatnot. NO, it's a battle flag where you fought to own people.

[twinmama]

True, but it makes no difference to me. It's still offensive.

I'd say this makes it even MORE offensive. It's not about the confederacy or a separate country, it's specifically about the war and slavery.

[twinmama]

Even if you honor the flag as a symbol of your heritage, common decency should prompt you to consider the feelings it brings up in others. For African-Americans those associations are vile, so it needs to be retired to the museum.

This is what it comes down to for me. Even if you think it has positive connotations for you and your history, you have to know what it means to some people. WHY would anyone (who doesn't fancy themselves a horrific racist) want to hurt others like that just to fly a flag? I think anyone flying the confederate flag is either an outright racist, or someone who wishes it was socially appropriate to be a racist. Nothing will ever, ever change my opinion on that. Flying the confederate flag knowing the pain it can bring to some people makes you a terrible person. Period. You celebrating your history or whatever excuse you give does not take precedence over other peoples deep pain and feelings.

[samurai_sarah]

Reading fail.

No. Read what you wrote.

[formergothardite]

Reading fail.

Your other post where you seem offended that I would compare the Nazi flag to the Confederate one does seem to show a lack of compassion and empathy for slaves and does seem to downplay how horrible the South's system of slavery was. No, the South wasn't any better because they enslaved, tortured, raped, and experimented on black people for economic reasons. You then went on to say that the South just simply wanted to govern their own affairs. :roll: While not mentioning that those "affairs" were the enslavement, torture, and rape of slaves. And that they actually wanted to expand their borders to create a larger nation founded on slavery. You still seem to be resistant to the idea that the South was the bad guy and needed to be defeated.

[roddma]

This is what it comes down to for me. Even if you think it has positive connotations for you and your history, you have to know what it means to some people. WHY would anyone (who doesn't fancy themselves a horrific racist) want to hurt others like that just to fly a flag? I think anyone flying the confederate flag is either an outright racist, or someone who wishes it was socially appropriate to be a racist. Nothing will ever, ever change my opinion on that. Flying the confederate flag knowing the pain it can bring to some people makes you a terrible person. Period. You celebrating your history or whatever excuse you give does not take precedence over other peoples deep pain and feelings.

If I removed everything others found offensive or asked others to remove everything I found offensive, nothing would be left. The truth is something will always some and not others. I detest rap music that talks about violence against women, but Im not calling for the removal which brings to mind the double standards of the country. Maybe we shouldnt fly the US flag.

[formergothardite]

If I removed everything others found offensive or asked others to remove everything I found offensive, nothing would be left. The truth is something will always some and not others. I detest rap music that talks about violence against women, but Im not calling for the removal which brings to mind the double standards of the country. Maybe we shouldnt fly the US flag.

Are there government monuments for violent rap songs? If so, let me know so I can protest. I don't think we should pretend the Civil War didn't happen, but it shouldn't be celebrated or honored. It should be taught about in schools in a truthful manner and the battle flags should be put in museums. I don't get what double standard you are talking about. Can you be more specific.

[RosyDaisy]

CnD, is this your half-assed way of saying you were wrong and blaming your upbringing on the way you were taught?

[Mama Mia]

This does bring up some interesting discussion points on the U.S.A. flag, though, doesn't it? Especially if you look at how individual states joined the union. For the original 13 colonies - you could go with the version of the flag that speaks to religious freedom and independence and fighting tyranny - or you could look at it from the lens of the people who were already living here -- and get a very different view!

With most of the rest of the states I would imagine it's even harder to put a purely positive spin on how they were...um...acquired. :?

[HereticHick]

CnD, is this your half-assed way of saying you were wrong and blaming your upbringing on the way you were taught?

Well said RosyDaisy.

For Fuck's sake, my southern brethren, start living in the 21st century & stop being whiny victims.

Some of my white ancestors fought for the Confederacy. I have several ancestors with hella embarrassing names, including a, yes, you guessed it--Robert E. Lee.

The Confederacy was wrong. The Southern cause was not "just." The Confederate leaders were racist traitors, and they deserved to lose and I am glad they did.

I have absolutely no problems saying the above.

This in no way lessens me as a person. This in no way lessens the South.

Lay down the self-righteous victimhood of the Confederate battle flag, and help the South--all of the South--finally rise again.

[RosyDaisy]

I agree HereticHick!

[VelociRapture]

Well said RosyDaisy.

For Fuck's sake, my southern brethren, start living in the 21st century & stop being whiny victims.

Some of my white ancestors fought for the Confederacy. I have several ancestors with hella embarrassing names, including a, yes, you guessed it--Robert E. Lee.

The Confederacy was wrong. The Southern cause was not "just." The Confederate leaders were racist traitors, and they deserved to lose and I am glad they did.

I have absolutely no problems saying the above.

This in no way lessens me as a person. This in no way lessens the South.

Lay down the self-righteous victimhood of the Confederate battle flag, and help the South--all of the South--finally rise again.

Just stopping in to say this may be one of the best posts on this subject I've seen. :clap:

[CloakNDagger]

CnD, is this your half-assed way of saying you were wrong and blaming your upbringing on the way you were taught?

Yeah, pretty much.

I wish I'd read the "rest of the story" with regards to the original documents a long time ago, but I suppose that it was inconvenient for them to include that in the literature I read. I DO have compassion for those who were actually enslaved and I believe that racial slavery is wrong, and is against the totality of Scripture. Manstealing was wrong in the Old Testament and those I was around taught us that. It is also clear that all men are created of "one blood" as Paul stated and I don't see any difference between people. I do see strata of less desirable people to be around - like the Westboro Baptists, PP, and other people discussed on this forum, some types of rednecks, and gangstas, but they should all be given a chance and all are Created equal. Even Doug the Tool taught the "one blood" message vocally and specifically, so I think there was a weird disconnect in stated beliefs, and actual study of the documents. I always thought one could be truly not racist and still believe in the whole "states rights" argument.

With regards to the original system - the stupid 2/3rds compromise notwithstanding, I think that the original Constitution was intended to provide for more local control and a preservation of the original states. The South's stupidity allowed for the erosion of those "states rights" and so in the end, I now concede that it was THEIR racist attitudes and stubborn stupidity that is to be blamed for the loss of the very thing many of them may have actually thought they were fighting for. If they wanted any sort of moral high ground, they could have only achieved that by freeing their slaves immediately and completely and giving them some form of compensation for the wrongs suffered. Then they could have fought over the system of government.

I also don't think that they war really ended the attitude of racism, North or South, and that is where I still see hypocrisy on those who talk about the war as if it was a holy war. Things didn't get much better for the black people North or South for years afterwards and the treatment of the native Americans showed that there was deep-seated racism in the whole country. Where were the abolitionists during that period arguing for the genocidal tactics used in the west to stop?

Where I come from I have experienced racism expressed from "Yankees," Rednecks, a handful of "Southerners" and Hispanics towards black people whereas most of the communities I was around were on much better terms with them and no one I was around would have dared vocalizing an opinion advocating re-enslaving them. I genuinely would have been angry if I had heard that and I was angry the first time I heard that there were Kinists that were part of the VF camp, but that was never a thing that I remember being discussed. As I mentioned before, there was a real emphasis on the Creation order and "one blood" meaning that there was no Biblical place for racism, so I think that left me confused as to the promotion of Confederate hats, swords, books, and the like being just about states rights.

[formergothardite]

Yeah, pretty much.

I wish I'd read the "rest of the story" with regards to the original documents a long time ago, but I suppose that it was inconvenient for them to include that in the literature I read. I DO have compassion for those who were actually enslaved and I believe that racial slavery is wrong, and is against the totality of Scripture. Manstealing was wrong in the Old Testament and those I was around taught us that. It is also clear that all men are created of "one blood" as Paul stated and I don't see any difference between people. I do see strata of less desirable people to be around - like the Westboro Baptists, PP, and other people discussed on this forum, some types of rednecks, and gangstas, but they should all be given a chance and all are Created equal. Even Doug the Tool taught the "one blood" message vocally and specifically, so I think there was a weird disconnect in stated beliefs, and actual study of the documents. I always thought one could be truly not racist and still believe in the whole "states rights" argument.

With regards to the original system - the stupid 2/3rds compromise notwithstanding, I think that the original Constitution was intended to provide for more local control and a preservation of the original states. The South's stupidity allowed for the erosion of those "states rights" and so in the end, I now concede that it was THEIR racist attitudes and stubborn stupidity that is to be blamed for the loss of the very thing many of them may have actually thought they were fighting for. If they wanted any sort of moral high ground, they could have only achieved that by freeing their slaves immediately and completely and giving them some form of compensation for the wrongs suffered. Then they could have fought over the system of government.

I also don't think that they war really ended the attitude of racism, North or South, and that is where I still see hypocrisy on those who talk about the war as if it was a holy war. Things didn't get much better for the black people North or South for years afterwards and the treatment of the native Americans showed that there was deep-seated racism in the whole country. Where were the abolitionists during that period arguing for the genocidal tactics used in the west to stop?

Where I come from I have experienced racism expressed from "Yankees," Rednecks, a handful of "Southerners" and Hispanics towards black people whereas most of the communities I was around were on much better terms with them and no one I was around would have dared vocalizing an opinion advocating re-enslaving them. I genuinely would have been angry if I had heard that and I was angry the first time I heard that there were Kinists that were part of the VF camp, but that was never a thing that I remember being discussed. As I mentioned before, there was a real emphasis on the Creation order and "one blood" meaning that there was no Biblical place for racism, so I think that left me confused as to the promotion of Confederate hats, swords, books, and the like being just about states rights.

You have come a long way from "Well they can just stay slaves for 10 more years and the Northern aggressors persecuted the noble Southerners." :lol: I understand, though. Because I really thought that our founding fathers were conservative, Republican Christians until I was college age and it took some time to realize I had been taught lies my whole life.

Am I reading you wrong but you only think racial slavery is wrong, not just slavery in general?

[CloakNDagger]

If it was truly voluntary, or for payment of wrong done, I think it would be superior to our current system of incarceration.

For instance if a drunk driver who is broke does $200,000 of damage to a business or individual, I think he should pay back those he damaged, out of pocket, or by time, rather than sit in a jail.

[CloakNDagger]

You have come a long way from "Well they can just stay slaves for 10 more years and the Northern aggressors persecuted the noble Southerners."

The attitudes were certainly different here in the States than in England. It IS a shame that it couldn't have been done without a war.

[formergothardite]

If it was truly voluntary, or for payment of wrong done, I think it would be superior to our current system of incarceration.

For instance if a drunk driver who is broke does $200,000 of damage to a business or individual, I think he should pay back those he damaged, out of pocket, or by time, rather than sit in a jail.

I still think that enslaving a person like that would be wrong. People aren't objects to be owned by another person. I do think that something like you suggest would work, just not turning people into slaves. Let people work to help pay back the damage, but slavery? Nope.