Confederate Flag

[twinmama]

The Confederate BATTLE flag existed because if the Northern invasion, period. That's why the issue of the war and the Northern intentions is germane. The Confederate national flag should receive more hatred if anything. I HAVE come to the conclusion that it is offensive to fly the flag in people's face, I'd still say the Nazi flag is 20-30% worse.

This is BEYOND ridiculous. "Not as bad as the Nazis" isn't really a high bar to set, nor something to aspire to.

[formergothardite]

Not that anyone asked :) but my opinion on the two flags is something doesn't need to be equal to Nazism or the Nazi flag in order to be a horrible, shameful part of our history. No one wins at the pain Olympics. What's worse? Torture or immediate death? Doesn't matter!!!

Maybe it's simplistic of me, but all I have to think about is "if my child was black how would a Confederate flag make me feel?" I will never be a black woman obviously, but I could easily have a black child. That flag would scare the shit out of me, for my child. That fear, whether justified or not, makes flying the stupid flag not worth it. The south has so much good to be proud of, this flag does not represent ANY of it.

ITA. CnD claims that it is "over the top" to say that the Confederate flag is just as offensive as the Nazi one is what I originally disagreed with. And then he dissolved into a horrible "which is worse" thing where he decided that since the slaves were killed slowly that the flag is 20-30 % less offensive. No, it is 100% offensive and it doesn't really matter if they were killed fast or slow, what matters is that the flag represents oppression, tyranny and the dehumanization of a group of people. It is really disturbing that he took the time to try and figure out which group suffered the least so he could put a percentage on it. I still don't know how one could even do that. I can't and I wouldn't even try. The suffering that took place in both situations is more than I can ever imagine.

[catparty]

That's just flat out untrue. Also, I suppose your current flag is also treasonous to England.

Indeed it is, fuck those guys.

You hit the nail on the head when you called loyalty to the Confederate flag stupid, but it's also inherently malicious and purposely inflammatory. It doesn't matter what its personal connotations to you or any of these stupid but well-meaning "rebels" are, its purpose is the intimidation of black Americans period.

It is stupid, but how do you explain a black person flying it? Are they trying to intimidate themselves or other blacks? Or, are they just stupid and uninformed? Is it possible they view it differently and have a right to?

A black person flying it doesn't make it any less racist, believe it or not. Unless they've built a time machine and stopped the KKK and anti-integration governors from adopting it as their emblem, ofc. That would be totally different, at least if we're operating on Back to the Future time travel logic.

(And yes, they are probably stupid and uninformed.)

[twinmama]

ITA. CnD claims that it is "over the top" to say that the Confederate flag is just as offensive as the Nazi one is what I originally disagreed with. And then he dissolved into a horrible "which is worse" thing where he decided that since the slaves were killed slowly that the flag is 20-30 % less offensive. No, it is 100% offensive and it doesn't really matter if they were killed fast or slow, what matters is that the flag represents oppression, tyranny and the dehumanization of a group of people. It is really disturbing that he took the time to try and figure out which group suffered the least so he could put a percentage on it. I still don't know how one could even do that. I can't and I wouldn't even try. The suffering that took place in both situations is more than I can ever imagine.

I think at some point you pass a level of horrible and everything is just equal because it doesn't matter. No person would want to be a slave OR a Jew during the Holocaust. It doesn't matter if one experience was somehow worse than the other. They were both horrific. Quantifying it is impossible and pointless.

Really, as a non-Jewish, non-Southerner I see the Nazi flag and think "hates Jewish people" and I see the Confederate flag and think "hates black people." I don't think individuals should be banned from flying either in the US. However, if you fly either one, you have to realize what most people will assume about you. But I am a-okay with the government being forbidden from flying either. The government should never make a portion of its own citizens feel targeted or endangered.

And I will add that I don't care what color the person flying the flag is. It stands for what it stands for, you can accept that or deny it. But you cannot change it.

[formergothardite]

That's just flat out untrue. Also, I suppose your current flag is also treasonous to England.

It is stupid, but how do you explain a black person flying it? Are they trying to intimidate themselves or other blacks? Or, are they just stupid and uninformed? Is it possible they view it differently and have a right to?

The same reason there are Jewish Holocaust deniers.

As for the first part, she is correct, and if you had a better understanding of history you would know that. The Confederate war flag had pretty much faded into history and viewed as a treasonous flag until the Civil Rights era where racists decided to use it to intimidate black people. I do believe someone provided a link explaining all this earlier in the thread.

[formergothardite]

In the end the Confederate flag is 100% offensive, the Nazi flag is 100% offensive and the only thing over the top and ridiculous is trying to quantify the suffering to put percentages on it to make one flag seem less offensive than the other.

[formergothardite]

I just read the story of Margaret Garner and I was reminded of this thread. For those who don't know, she was a slave who was trying to escape to freedom with her husband and children. When she was caught she decided to kill her children instead of allowing them to be slaves again. She considered death the better option. She was only able to kill one before she was stopped.

Anyway, I had never heard the story and immediately thought of CnD and his idea of a "maintained" slave and how that makes the Confederate war flag less offensive.

[RosyDaisy]

I'm not Jewish, but I am Southern. Both the Nazi and Confederate flags are offensive to me for the simple fact that they represent hatred.

[Hera]

BULLSHIT!!!! Just come to Alabama. In my home state, that flag is flown for both reasons inclusively.

Grew up in AL and live in LA and anyone I have ever met who in any way associates with or claims the Comfederate flag is a racist. No really. Maybe not a "N word this and N word that" overt racist, but a racist nonetheless. Let's not pretend here. Whatever historical significance some may wish to attribute to that flag, in today's symbolic parlance, it represents white supremacy, separatism and racism.

[RosyDaisy]

Grew up in AL and live in LA and anyone I have ever met who in any way associates with or claims the Comfederate flag is a racist. No really. Maybe not a "N word this and N word that" overt racist, but a racist nonetheless. Let's not pretend here. Whatever historical significance some may wish to attribute to that flag, in today's symbolic parlance, it represents white supremacy, separatism and racism.

QFT! Some sugar coat it by saying it represents southern pride. It doesn't, and they know it.

[ShepherdontheRock]

Grew up in AL and live in LA and anyone I have ever met who in any way associates with or claims the Comfederate flag is a racist. No really. Maybe not a "N word this and N word that" overt racist, but a racist nonetheless. Let's not pretend here. Whatever historical significance some may wish to attribute to that flag, in today's symbolic parlance, it represents white supremacy, separatism and racism.

Or, you know, if you don't want to be considered racist, just fly the "Don't tread on me" flag.

Or the jolly roger. It's a rebel flag, and I believe, associated with anti-racism. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Discobiscuits]

It is stupid, but how do you explain a black person flying it? Are they trying to intimidate themselves or other blacks? Or, are they just stupid and uninformed? Is it possible they view it differently and have a right to?

As a black American who was born and raised in the south (So Southern, my mother lives about 5 miles from the plantation her ancestors were owned; yes, slavery was VERY BAD), there are some misguided blacks around here who present themselves as "The Good Negro" and subscribe to the ideology that whites saved us from Africa through slavery and Christianity and other insanities.

To say they are stupid and uniformed is only half true. It's actually more like "misinformed" or "cherry picking what's convenient." The other half is a survival mechanism gone horribly wrong. They want to belong in the South and the USA, even if it means being accepted by white bigots with a horrible grasp on history. They want to be the one who gets told "I don't see you as black," or "You're one of the good ones!" Getting called out by other black Americans, they deem it as jealousy, submitting to a racist, liberal agenda, and other weird beliefs that would be right at home on Breitbart.

Oh, and they probably blog for Breitbart. It's not like there are many...

They are also married to the idea that dumptrucks of blacks fought for the South. There were less than 100 step-and-fetchits who did so willingly, but most slaves were busy mass-producing munitions for the confederates while / or plotting for their escape and possibly fighting with The Union.

That said, most blacks who had an ancestors fighting for the Confederates, well... said ancestor might not have been black... and that the consummation was likely not consensual.

Also why are Confederate and Nazi flags being ranked side by side?? Are we grading the pear of anguish vs Judas's cradle next?? :wtf:

[formergothardite]

I didn't mean to it to turn into a "who suffered more" debate. I was responding to roddma when she was talking about how silly it is for people to get offended at the Confederate flag, I was wondering if she would same the same to people who got offended at the Nazi flag being flown proudly. CnD got offended at the idea that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive just like the Nazi flag is. And that is how we ended up with the :wtf: moments where he was putting percentages on how offensive each flag. His percentages seem to be based on the false idea that slaves were well taken care of.

There is absolutely no reason to try and rank which situation was worse or who suffered worse. The point is(that he and roddma still don't really want to address) is that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive and there is absolutely no defense in flying in.

[CloakNDagger]

CnD got offended at the idea that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive just like the Nazi flag is.

It is offensive, but again, not in the same way, and again, I don't assume the same about the beliefs of the person flying one vs the other.

His percentages seem to be based on the false idea that slaves were well taken care of.

Not so much that they were well taken care of as that there wasn't a death sentence over most of their heads unlike the Holocaust victims.

There is absolutely no reason to try and rank which situation was worse or who suffered worse. The point is(that he and roddma still don't really want to address) is that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive and there is absolutely no defense in flying in.

You're right on that. It was silly to make it about degrees of worse. You conveniently ignore that I've said I wouldn't fly it and believe it be genuinely offensive. You also miss my point that some people still fly it out of genuine ignorance to this day right or wrong and to a degree one simply could not imagine for the Nazi flag. A high percentage of teenagers flying the flag in the south today are simply flying it as rebels against the system or otherwise and they've been fed stuff similar to what I was fed.

Yeah, I used to wave it, too and am embarrassed by it now, but it was never intended on my part as a racist thing and I have black friends who could attest to that.

[CloakNDagger]

And 100% of the Nazi skinhead types I've met are really dangerous and definitely racist no question about it.

[ShesCrafty]

CnD, I'm confused over why you are trying to debate over whether concentration camps during WWII or slavery in the American south is worse/better. And how you got the 20-30% worse regarding the flags. Can't we all agree that both are horrible and leave it at that?

[formergothardite]

CnD, the slaves did lose their lives. They were worked to death, treated like animals or a piece of property, they were dehumanized, raped, tortured, and all sorts of things that are hard to imagine. They lost their families and even after the Civil War ended, it was almost impossible to find family again. It was a death sentence, but a slow death sentence that destroyed their body, mind and soul. It was so bad that one woman would rather kill her children then let them be slaves again. She considered death the better option.

Let me ask you this, if you went to your Confederate flag waving friends and explained to them that it is offensive and the the Confederate flag stand for oppression and dehumanization and that it only gained popularity when it was used as a symbol of racism in the Civil rights era, would they be willing to get rid of their flag? Or would they try to pretend all that was not true? Do you explain to people you know why it is offensive and why the South was wrong? IME it is less straight up ignorance and more willful ignorance. When I see someone flying the flag wtih pride I see someone who wants to whitewash what the South did and the horrors of slavery.

And why can't you just admit that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive in every way and there is no excuse to fly it? Do you think that one of the reasons the ignorance about the Confederate flag remains is because people don't react in horror when they see it like they would if they saw someone flying the Nazi flag? If people started treated Confederate flag wavers like they would a Nazi flag waver, perhaps the truth about the issue would come out. But instead people like you and roddma come up with excuses and you went so far as to come up with percentages.

ETA: What I have been trying to say and probably saying really poorly is that flying the Confederate flag is 100% offensive. Don't come up with excuses as to why it isn't and don't act like it is silly or over the top for people to find it 100% offensive.

[Discobiscuits]

I meant that moreso towards rodma and CnD, sorry!

It's interesting that they even decided to weigh it. If they knew their history, they would know that the same lolscience the confederacy used to justify maintaining their bullshit eventually became the same lolscience the nazis used to justify their bullshit. If someone wants to try to debate that and get proof, it's 2015. Hit up Google or your local library and read about "race science", eugenics, and all that magical sort of thing. Check your sources, too! Or pay me my $55/hr rate to teach you. Either way! :mrgreen: My PayPal is...

...Anyway, I'm not surprised the Duggars would support that Failed State Flag in some way. I almost expect them to. The way the Duggars and their type live is very popular here in SC among a lot of white fundies. They love Duggars, they love Duck Dynasty... There's a lot of overlaps.

Personally, I think they should go ahead and be more open about it while they're on a pandering streak. It's not like they have anything left to lose.

[RosyDaisy]

CnD, bless his heart, just can't admit that he's wrong. He's still on the kool aid and in serious denial.

[CloakNDagger]

CnD, the slaves did lose their lives. They were worked to death, treated like animals or a piece of property, they were dehumanized, raped, tortured, and all sorts of things that are hard to imagine. They lost their families and even after the Civil War ended, it was almost impossible to find family again. It was a death sentence, but a slow death sentence that destroyed their body, mind and soul. It was so bad that one woman would rather kill her children then let them be slaves again. She considered death the better option.

Yes they lost their lives, but not as the default option... Where were blacks rounded up to be gassed or something similar? And the stuff you rightly mention wasn't the default state. Plenty of evidence to the contrary. Not saying it didn't happen a lot, but I think you'd be hard pressed to prove it was a majority, either.

Let me ask you this, if you went to your Confederate flag waving friends and explained to them that it is offensive and the the Confederate flag stand for oppression and dehumanization and that it only gained popularity when it was used as a symbol of racism in the Civil rights era, would they be willing to get rid of their flag? Or would they try to pretend all that was not true? Do you explain to people you know why it is offensive and why the South was wrong?

1) Many of them, no, because they genuinely know they aren't using it for deliberately racist purposes. They won't accept that your opinion is 100% correct because it is just your opinion. You are fully committed to your view and I admire you for it and believe you are more correct than them, but not 100%. 2) Probably to some degree, but they would offer documents and logic, not just pull it out of thin air. 3) Yea, I have done so and risked friendships over this of late.

IME it is less straight up ignorance and more willful ignorance. When I see someone flying the flag wtih pride I see someone who wants to whitewash what the South did and the horrors of slavery.

That's awfully simplistic of you.

And why can't you just admit that the Confederate flag is 100% offensive in every way and there is no excuse to fly it?

I pretty much have, but I still don't presume the same things you do about those who choose to display the flag because I know what I used to think and it was not what you claim.

Do you think that one of the reasons the ignorance about the Confederate flag remains is because people don't react in horror when they see it like they would if they saw someone flying the Nazi flag? If people started treated Confederate flag wavers like they would a Nazi flag waver, perhaps the truth about the issue would come out. But instead people like you and roddma come up with excuses and you went so far as to come up with percentages.

No I don't. And it's largely because of real differences that you won't accept between the nature of the Confederacy vs the Nazi regime.

ETA: What I have been trying to say and probably saying really poorly is that flying the Confederate flag is 100% offensive. Don't come up with excuses as to why it isn't and don't act like it is silly or over the top for people to find it 100% offensive.

No, your opinion is loud and clear and makes sense to me, but I don't think it's fully accurate with regards to other people's intent. That's all. You can't tell me that you are omniscient and know why everyone waves a Confederate flag or a U.S. flag, or wears a rainbow for that matter.

[Discobiscuits]

CnD, bless his heart, just can't admit that he's wrong. He's still on the kool aid and in serious denial.

Bless his sweet little heart, indeed.

[formergothardite]

CnD if you explain to your friends the history of the Confederate flag, that it stood for a tyrannical country that dehumanized a group of people and that it was only brought back to popularity so that it could be used by racists to scare black people and they still decide that they want to keep using it, then I think that makes them pretty damn selfish people. Someone using a flag or a term out of ignorance or because they want to pretend it means something else doesn't make it less offensive. As a child I had picked up a really racist term. I didn't know what it meant, I thought it meant something else, so I used it one day at a family dinner. Everyone was horrified and it was explained to me why it was a bad term and why I should never say it. Me saying it out of ignorance didn't make the term less offensive. Your Confederate flag waving friends using it out of ignorance or because they want to pretend it doesn't stand for something awful also doesn't make it less offensive.

My opinion on the Confederate flag is based on historical facts. The opinion of the Confederate flag that it stands for rebellion, Southern pride or whatever the hell else people want to claim it stand for, isn't based on historical facts. What documentation can your friends use to claim that it was not a flag used to fight in defending a tyrannical country whose foundation was dehumanizing a group of people? What documentation can they use to prove that it wasn't brought back to popularity by a racists to scare black people? I'm interested in what they will use to claim that these things aren't true.

As for the default state of slaves, did you read the link I posted earlier that described the average life that a slave lived in the state of NC? It also provided stories taken from slaves about how they lived. Historians generally feel like the majority of slave women were victims of sexual assaults.

What does he know of the half-starved wretches toiling from dawn till dark on the plantations? of mothers shrieking for their children, torn from their arms by slave traders? of young girls dragged down into moral filth? of pools of blood around the whipping post? of hounds trained to tear human flesh?â€

Incidents in the life of a Slave Girl.

[formergothardite]

I meant that moreso towards rodma and CnD, sorry!

It's interesting that they even decided to weigh it. If they knew their history, they would know that the same lolscience the confederacy used to justify maintaining their bullshit eventually became the same lolscience the nazis used to justify their bullshit. If someone wants to try to debate that and get proof, it's 2015. Hit up Google or your local library and read about "race science", eugenics, and all that magical sort of thing. Check your sources, too! Or pay me my $55/hr rate to teach you. Either way! :mrgreen: My PayPal is...

...Anyway, I'm not surprised the Duggars would support that Failed State Flag in some way. I almost expect them to. The way the Duggars and their type live is very popular here in SC among a lot of white fundies. They love Duggars, they love Duck Dynasty... There's a lot of overlaps.

Personally, I think they should go ahead and be more open about it while they're on a pandering streak. It's not like they have anything left to lose.

I'm not surprised they support it ether. The Bates have an entire room devoted to celebrating the Old South. There is a lot of romanticizing of the Old South among some fundies. It isn't even just Southerners, People like Miss Raquel who lives in Oregon thinks the Old South was wonderful.

It is just so frustrating that after all this time there is still a debate over the issue and still people pretending like the flag represents something good.

[GiggleOfGirls]

Slaves didn't have a death sentence? They were slaves: owned, abused, raped, worked, broken, beaten, starved, separated from their loved ones, treated like animals or worse, until their DEATH. Many died from the horrible conditions they had to live and work under. Being rounded up and gassed is not the only way to be killed.

There is no comparison other than to say that they were both horrific displays of evil that should not be celebrated with pride by their respective descendents.

*says the granddaughter of a proud :? member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy*

[formergothardite]

Slaves didn't have a death sentence? They were slaves: owned, abused, raped, worked, broken, beaten, starved, separated from their loved ones, treated like animals or worse, until their DEATH. Many died from the horrible conditions they had to live and work under. Being rounded up and gassed is not the only way to be killed.

There is no comparison other than to say that they were both horrific displays of evil that should not be celebrated with pride by their respective descendents.

*says the granddaughter of a proud :? member of the United Daughters of the Confederacy*

But according to CnD slaves weren't typically treated this way. :roll: