Confederate Flag

[jacduggar]

I get that - but, on the other hand. A lot of far-flung, fringe (read: woo-woo) Christian sects are pretty diddly-darn racist. I'd wager they are at least as familiar with it as they are with the American flag insofar as the symbolism and such. Vague history, at best. I do know that they're definitely not above pretending to know about it because that's what their target demographic seems to be all about, as well. Like, I've talked about this before, but a certain flavor of woo-woo my parents tried out (they got some tracts and watched some sermons and decided it was hooey) correlated holiness to lack of melanin. That God did that because of I don't even remember why. Kind of similar to traditional Mormon anti-blackness beliefs.

I agree that they're likely racists, or at least were until their brand of celebrity forced them to be around people who weren't white (which I only hope has at least made them less ignorant. Probably not, but I digress.) I just don't know if they'd embrace a confederate flag BECAUSE they're (alleged?) racists.

I'm an excommunicated Mormon and all the bigotry I was raised to believe would make your head spin, even after the "reform". No one I know (who were so clearly racist) had anything to do with the confederate flag.

[DeFrauder]

1. It was never the official flag. It was Robert E. Lee's unit's flag. After the war, he himself distanced himself from it, claiming not to want to keep open the sore of war or whatnot.

2. It pretty much faded into obscurity until the mid-twentieth century, when the Dixiecrats became a thing, and one major part of their platform was pro-segregation.

3. It was symbolic of being anti-civil rights.

read more here: http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/us/confed ... index.html

link not broken because it's a legitimate news site.

Sorry but anyone saying it's heritage or freedom is either willfully ignorant or blatantly racist.

Duggars are probably all over that flag. (I don't really have proof but most fundie beliefs are pretty anti-POC.)

Also I hate that people on my FB cry states' rights - yeah, the states' right to own humans as chattel. When it's either the first or second sentence of a state's declaration, you have no room to say it wasn't secession because of slavery.

When I was in second grade, we moved to GA for my dad's job. We lived in a very, very small town. A mobile home park. My family's next door neighbor was crazy. He had confederate flags everywhere, used them as curtains, flew them above his home, etc. He had a big sign in his front yard that said "N***** go home" and other things that I don't remember.

What I do remember is how I felt. Full disclosure: I'm rather white-passing with absolutely not white-passing poc family. I remember asking my mom what that word was and what it meant. When I learned, I remember feeling sick to my stomach and wanting to cry. It hurt me. It continues to hurt, knowing that this hate is alive and well in the US.

Children are not born with hate in their hearts. It is instilled in them.

To me, leaving the flag up is pure contempt for black folk and is a sign of aggression. It's disrespectful for those folks who were slaughtered by that terrorist.

I agree with what you say here--except for the fundamentalists do not like POC or are white supremacists. It is not actually part of the belief system (in fact the opposite). One of the main arguments against abortion is that it is used to limit the numbers of non-white babies born.

BUT the people that are drawn to white supremacist ideas are sometimes drawn to fundamentalist forms of religious practice. Today, many people drawn to white supremacy movements are poor, disenfranchised, uneducated. Fundamentalist churches have always been the refuge of the poor, disenfranchised and uneducated.

There are many Black Churches whose foundation is in Calvinist and Baptist theology--both the base for fundamentalism.

The other issue is that it was the norm to be white supremacist and classist up until the mid 20th century. The British Empire was built on these principles. The idea that non-western European people are superior comes from the Mainline Protestant Denominations such as The Anglican Church (Episcopal), Presbyterian, Methodist, Lutheran, etc and were proponents of the social gospel. (these churches were the churches of the middle and upper classes that held political power). A hundred years ago the social gospel included Social Darwinism and Eugenics. They were interested in serving the "worthy" poor and limiting the reproduction of undesirables. These churches no longer embrace these ideas of Social Darwinism and Eugenics.

Mainline churches are "world affirming" meaning they embraced the social ideas of the day. Fundamentalist churches are "world rejecting" meaning they reject the social ideas of the day.

I have no doubt that the Duggars may hold some racist ideas and that they are unconscious that the ideas are racist. We all suffer from the effects of institutionalized racism. However, if they were consciously racist, I think we would have known about it by now. They are super clueless about how their ideas are perceived by the world. Being purposely racist would mean that they would be covering up these ideas. Their handling of the Josh crisis shows they are not smart enough to cover up a racist agenda.

Of course we do not know for sure. That Dog the Bounty Hunter lost his shit one day and few guessed that was about to happen.

[DeFrauder]

Hooray for Wal-Mart.

LOLZ! The woes of Wal-Mart.

And did I read above that Arkansas celebrates Robert E. Lee Day on MLK Day? Lee even gets a day? Whose idea was that?

[Cleopatra7]

I very seriously doubt the Duggars know much about the Confederate flag. The kids have likely only seen it while out and about. I think some people may be overestimating the Duggar's current events knowledge and their participation in anything that isn't Gothard. When I was in school we didn't learn a lot about it at all, I don't know if JB or M would have learned much either, and I doubt it made it's way into a Gothard pamphlet because Jesus didn't talk about it.

The fact that JB went to a Christian school as a kid always pinged me as possibly a racist action on the part of Grandma Mary. Until the 1960s, white Protestants didn't believe in religious schools (except for expensive prep schools that catered to the elite), because the only people who had them were Catholics and Jews, groups that they thought needed to assimilate (i.e., become Protestants). This was because the King James Bible and the Protestant form of the Lord's Prayer were de facto part of the public school curriculum until the Supreme Court ended the practice, especially true in the South, where Protestant fundamentalists tended to dictate what was taught in schools. It wasn't until Brown v. Board of Education that the "Christian school" concept took off among white, because such institutions were used as segregation academies for white students. I don't know what the exact demographics of Tonitown were back when JB was a student, but given the time period, I would be surprised if racial animus didn't play a part in the decision to send him to a "Christian school."

The religious right really came together not because of abortion as they often claim, but through racial issues like busing, the tax-exempt status of "Christian schools"/segregation academies, and the Southern strategy. The SBC originally supported Roe v. Wade and thought that being against abortion was a weird Catholic thing. However, it was always against racial integration until it became publicly untenable to say otherwise, at least in polite company. The Duggars have also visited Bob Jones University more than once, and they must be aware of the school's less than honorable racial past.

[lascuba]

It does confuse me though when I see black people with confederate paraphernalia.

I heard Kanye West was selling that shit during his last tour. :roll: Money, the great equalizer. Enough of it turns everyone into an asshole.

[lascuba]

LOLZ! The woes of Wal-Mart.

And did I read above that Arkansas celebrates Robert E. Lee Day on MLK Day? Lee even gets a day? Whose idea was that?

Maybe that's the real reason Derrick quit...no more confederate flags!

Before anyone gets hysterical at the ridiculous speculation, it's obviously a joke, since Wal-Mart announced they'd stop selling the flags long after he resigned. :whistle:

[JessaJessa]

Born & bred Southerner here. Seeing the flag throughout the South was common and comforting to me as a minority. Before anyone jumps the gun, by comforting I mean it's nice to know and identity who the racists are before engaging in any way with them. The flag paraphernalia on license plates, clothing, etc instantly marked these bigots. Out here in SoCal, the racism is much more subversive. It's coded in the language. Thug is the descriptor du jour, like ghetto a few years ago. Also, I've heard the n-word said casually more times in my 5yrs here than a lifetime spent in the South. :angry-banghead:

...

[DeFrauder]

Yep, I thought they just picked two of the tribes of Israel until I read about him here! :shock:

I think there is a very good possibility that JD was making fun of his parents. I doubt they knew who "Judah Benjamin" is.

I would not put it past TLC to put the name in their heads either. Part of the appeal of their reality shows are hate watching.

Someone mentioned Bob Jones University and their racist past. They issued a formal apology for being dicks.

[artdecades]

I am not sure why people are acting like Jim Bob and Michelle are naive, sheltered children. Both of them grew up in normal households. They know about the flag and they know who Judah Benjamin was. They chose the name Judah Benjamin for that reason. Lets not treat them with kiddie gloves because they put off this "separate from the world", backwoods persona.

I imagine all the kids know about the flag, or at least the conservative, racist view of the flag.

[Rachel333]

LOLZ! The woes of Wal-Mart.

And did I read above that Arkansas celebrates Robert E. Lee Day on MLK Day? Lee even gets a day? Whose idea was that?

Yes, and the state legislature even voted this year to keep it that way: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/ ... 3720150129

[GeoBQn]

Josh probably forwarded the flag pic because it is "cool" to be pro Confederate flag in ultra conservative circles. Was his post before or after the big shooting?

I also assume that Josh had an assistant that gathered pro conservative propaganda for Josh to post--in his role of spokesperson for that dumb lobby he worked for.

Beyond the above examples, are there any other pro confederacy leanings? I took the baby names to be jokes. And if it is true that JB and M had to be pulled aside and warned that Judah Benjamin was an inappropriate name it must because they are completely clueless on the issues.

This was back when he ran the car lot. The picture is saved on FJ one of the threads about his Instagram account.

[artdecades]

The Duggars align themselves with many people who are openly and no so openly racist

David Barton, their buddy who they have brought on their show, has spoken at events for Neo-Nazi's and White Supremacists and then denied knowing. However, he still argues that the Three-Fifths Rule was a good thing. He has also been anti-immigration (coded racism) and worked to remove MLK and Cesar Chavez from school text books.

Mike Huckabee, their best buddy, has defended the confederate flag on numerous occasions. He also go in trouble recently for his racist remarks against Beyonce. Most importantly, however, he was involved in the racist group, Council of Conservative Citizens, the white supremacist group which radicalized the South Carolina terrorist.

Rick Santorum, who they campaigned for in 2012, made racist remarks about black welfare recipients (welfare recipients, btw, are actually primarily white) and maybe almost called Obama the n-word.

Their buddies the Bateses displayed portraits of confederate, KKK members in their house proudly (despite Kelly Jo having two black siblings) and named one of their children after one of them (I think???).

Bill Gothard, their false idol, uses a lot of coded racism in his teachings. All that stuff about "rock music" and music with a "rhythm" being bad is basically saying that the influence of black culture on white society has lead to its decline. Its all very coded, but a close reading will illuminate it.

Tony Perkins, Josh's old boss, also worked with the Council of Conservative Citizens. He also worked with David Duke to purchase Duke's mailing list for a lot of money.

This is just a few of the Duggar friends and allies who have racist views. I have no doubt in my mind that the Duggars are racist for this reason and more. The company people keep says a lot about them.

[Cleopatra7]

Bill Gothard, their false idol, uses a lot of coded racism in his teachings. All that stuff about "rock music" and music with a "rhythm" being bad is basically saying that the influence of black culture on white society has lead to its decline. Its all very coded, but a close reading will illuminate it.

Condemning "music with a rhythm/strong beat" has been coded language against black music since the days of ragtime and dixieland jazz. It's also why many white Christians until recently looked down on black gospel music, because it seemed too Dionysian for church. Although by this "logic," a military march is also "sinful" because it has a strong beat.

[jacduggar]

I am not sure why people are acting like Jim Bob and Michelle are naive, sheltered children. Both of them grew up in normal households. They know about the flag and they know who Judah Benjamin was. They chose the name Judah Benjamin for that reason. Lets not treat them with kiddie gloves because they put off this "separate from the world", backwoods persona.

I imagine all the kids know about the flag, or at least the conservative, racist view of the flag.

Until relatively recently I didn't even know that the Confederate flag was viewed this way. I don't see it very often and it was barely a topic of discussion in school-middle school, high school, undergrad, or 2 years graduate. So no I don't think they're naive but racist=/=confederate flag flying. I knew of Judah Benjamin too FYI (and how crude that was in the special :ew:). With how little they access the outside world, I don't think it's unlikely that they have very limited knowledge on the subject. I grew up in the real world and went to normal public schools, and this knowledge didn't come to me until well into my adult life. I don't think it's that crazy to assume that not everyone knows everything.

[DeFrauder]

Condemning "music with a rhythm/strong beat" has been coded language against black music since the days of ragtime and dixieland jazz. It's also why many white Christians until recently looked down on black gospel music, because it seemed too Dionysian for church. Although by this "logic," a military march is also "sinful" because it has a strong beat.

I was exposed to a lot of sermons in my life about secular rock music being bad. Some might remember the guy who traveled around playing records backwards and exposing that rock music played backwards were playing satanic messages. Yawn it was all so stupid. KISS=Knights in Satan's Service. Ozzy Osbourne was a disciple of the Devil. Even the Beatles were in on the vast Satanic Conspiracy to turn us away from Jesus. I had like 2 records and I had to break them. One was the sinful Juice Newton album with the shameful lyrics about "Playing with the Queen of Hearts". Not only was she singing about playing cards (SIN!!) but she MIGHT have been singing about premarital sex.

But not once did I hear anything (even coded) against rock music because it was "black". It wasn't the beat or the rhythm that was the problem. It was the words. I remember one preacher carefully explaining that if it was the beat that was relevant in rock music (in terms of sin) that rock bands would not bother with writing lyrics and none of us could name a single hit rock song that had no lyrics, right??!? Clearly it was the lyrics that were evil. We were encouraged to listen to Christian Rock and "rock music" was played during the worship portion of the church service.

These issues are not always associated with racism. Actually the most overt form of racism that I experienced in church was a preacher that told me (in a personal conversation not from the pulpit) that he thought that inter-racial marriages were a bad idea when it involved a non-white husband and a white wife. He thought that a white husband and a non-white wife is no problem. His reasoning was that he believed that non whites are more patriarchal and abusive to their wives and that they come from cultures where it is acceptable to beat women and limit their rights. He was completely oblivious to how bigoted he was being.

[Lovebug]

Here in Florida (or Flori-duh, take your pick!) we have the world's largest confederate flag on display in Hillsborough County. You can see it from two major highways, it's that big. The mayor wants it down. David McAllister, commander of the Judah P. Benjamin Camp says that the only thing that will bring it down is a hurricane, since it had nothing to do with the killings in in Charleston. Curious to see how this will pan out. The flag is 30 feet by 60 feet, folks - and they're proud of that, y'all...

http://tbo.com/news/breaking-news/in-wa ... -20150622/

[HarryPotterFan]

Born & bred Southerner here. Seeing the flag throughout the South was common and comforting to me as a minority. Before anyone jumps the gun, by comforting I mean it's nice to know and identity who the racists are before engaging in any way with them. The flag paraphernalia on license plates, clothing, etc instantly marked these bigots. Out here in SoCal, the racism is much more subversive. It's coded in the language. Thug is the descriptor du jour, like ghetto a few years ago. Also, I've heard the n-word said casually more times in my 5yrs here than a lifetime spent in the South. :angry-banghead:

I'm from the DC Metro area and confederate flags are a rare sighting for me. The area I grew up in is very liberal. I'll rarely see a confederate flag bumper sticker on a car. I think downtown and other areas near DC where you have a whole mishmash political ideologies, people are too smart to wear confederate flag paraphernalia (especially if they work on the hill).

But yesterday I saw some asshole teen with a confederate flag hat that said "REBEL" when I got off the metro (in a very liberal part of town). I assume he was a tourist because I heard his dad say something about their hotel. But I wanted to scream at him. Wearing that screams of racist douche baggery at any time, but wearing that NOW??

Then I think it's more common as you go south in VA. I was on a road trip with some friends and a gas station has a giant confederate flag behind the counter.

[Exposedknees]

I have no problem with racists displaying confederate flags on themselves or their personal property. Frankly, it's a time saver! I know who not to waste time or resources on.

[HarryPotterFan]

Here in Florida (or Flori-duh, take your pick!) we have the world's largest confederate flag on display in Hillsborough County. You can see it from two major highways, it's that big. The mayor wants it down. David McAllister, commander of the Judah P. Benjamin Camp says that the only thing that will bring it down is a hurricane, since it had nothing to do with the killings in in Charleston. Curious to see how this will pan out. The flag is 30 feet by 60 feet, folks - and they're proud of that, y'all...

http://tbo.com/news/breaking-news/in-wa ... -20150622/

Well this explains why the person I know who's from there is upset about people wanting to remove the flag and busts of Robert E. Lee and other confederate generals from various places (according to her doing such thinks erases history)

[Lovebug]

Well this explains why the person I know who's from there is upset about people wanting to remove the flag and busts of Robert E. Lee and other confederate generals from various places (according to her doing such thinks erases history)

See? Flori-duh is not an exaggeration. Wouldn't it be grand if we actually could erase certain bits of history?

[nausicaa]

Condemning "music with a rhythm/strong beat" has been coded language against black music since the days of ragtime and dixieland jazz. It's also why many white Christians until recently looked down on black gospel music, because it seemed too Dionysian for church. Although by this "logic," a military march is also "sinful" because it has a strong beat.

Yes, anyone condemning music with a strong beat always pings my racist radar. The foundation of that argument is that a strong beat comes from tribal Africa, where of course everyone is horny and jumping all over everyone else. Hell, I've heard people just come out and say that. I also believe the KKK used to push this argument quite a bit in the 20s and 30s in regards to jazz.

I actually came upon that argument in a non-fundie, but horribly written and poorly fact-checked parenting book, called The Hurried Child a few years ago.

[Chubbi]

I agree with what you say here--except for the fundamentalists do not like POC or are white supremacists. It is not actually part of the belief system (in fact the opposite). One of the main arguments against abortion is that it is used to limit the numbers of non-white babies born.

Yeah...you're right. I tend to talk pretty much 100% from my feelings and anecdotes when I get on subjects like this, and my personal anecdotal experience was of a fundie church that is actually really unpopular and kind of super racist? ucg.org if you're curious. the racist stuff is mostly found in the older publications, which were what my parents had. until they actually read it and were squicked out.

[MisUndrstd]

Born & bred Southerner here. Seeing the flag throughout the South was common and comforting to me as a minority. Before anyone jumps the gun, by comforting I mean it's nice to know and identity who the racists are before engaging in any way with them. The flag paraphernalia on license plates, clothing, etc instantly marked these bigots. Out here in SoCal, the racism is much more subversive. It's coded in the language. Thug is the descriptor du jour, like ghetto a few years ago. Also, I've heard the n-word said casually more times in my 5yrs here than a lifetime spent in the South. :angry-banghead:

I'm a Northern girl and I work for the government. Imagine my horror when I was transferred to the Gulf Coast of Mississippi, I think my exact words were "I can't go there, those people are racist". I was scared to death and just for the record I'm white. What i found was far different than I expected. Now one thing you must know about the Gulf Coast of MS, is it is a very diverse community, sure there are your rednecks and racists but they have to keep their prejudices low key because the community as a whole would not support any outward signs of blatant racism. We have here an Air Force base, Naval base and Coast Guard so like I said, the people are from all over and it is very diverse. It is not the typical Hollywood Mississippi, with dirt poor people and Klansmen running wild. In fact this part of Mississippi is generally quite wealthy, not to say it doesn't have it's fault. The people tend to hold onto fundamental religion like you'd hold on to your last dollar if you were hungry. But I do agree with what this poster is saying. The flag never bothered me, rather, it helped me to define who I wanted to associate with and who I didn't. If I had a neighbor with a confederate license plate, I would automatically know, he or she was not someone I would want to invite into my circle of friends. Since I was not born a Southerner and my family came over during the turn of the Century after the war, I have absolutely no feelings about the Confederate flag personally but I do think it has historical significance and should be reserved for battle fields and museums only, it should not be flying above a State Capital, I think there are much better choices for the people of the Southern States to put on their flag to represent them. On another note, my time in MS is almost up and although it has been a learning experience and I've met a lot of nice people, I can't wait to get back to the North, you just can't make a Northern girl into a Southern girl.

[halcionne]

Yeah...you're right. I tend to talk pretty much 100% from my feelings and anecdotes when I get on subjects like this, and my personal anecdotal experience was of a fundie church that is actually really unpopular and kind of super racist? ucg.org if you're curious. the racist stuff is mostly found in the older publications, which were what my parents had. until they actually read it and were squicked out.

I missed DeFrauder's comment the first time around. That's not a main argument against abortion, it's "exploiting and distorting the facts to serve their antiabortion agenda." https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html

[Geechee Girl]

Here in Florida (or Flori-duh, take your pick!) we have the world's largest confederate flag on display in Hillsborough County. You can see it from two major highways, it's that big. The mayor wants it down. David McAllister, commander of the Judah P. Benjamin Camp says that the only thing that will bring it down is a hurricane, since it had nothing to do with the killings in in Charleston. Curious to see how this will pan out. The flag is 30 feet by 60 feet, folks - and they're proud of that, y'all...

http://tbo.com/news/breaking-news/in-wa ... -20150622/

Is that the one visible from I-4? I had long forgotten about that one. I would point it out to friends & family on the way to Clearwater.