Confederate Flag

[doggie]

then there is this gun store owner.

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[VelociRapture]

Even if it didn't turn into a race issue(which it would) it would still on a moral level be wrong to turn people into slaves.

I absolutely agree.

I think a merging of the two ideas could potentially work. For instance, we still do prison time but we also put more emphasis on programs for prisoners - for instance, educational programs or teaching a trade. We already do it to a certain extent, but I would love to see more of that.

[ShesCrafty]

Oh, CnD, always the same old song and dance with you. You start out as though you're learning from your past mistakes and then you go COMPLETELY OFF THE RAILS! I know you're slowly coming out of fundiedom and I try to empathize, but good lord, quit trying to justify slavery! This isn't the first thread you've done this in and (unfortunately) probably won't be the last, but slavery is bad. The end. It's disturbing that people on this forum have to explain this to you over and over again.

[Boogalou]

Ah, debates about the morality of slavery. I had to check my calendar to make sure that it was 2015 not 1815. I am literally gobsmacked that someone in this day and age would seriously argue in favour of slavery.

Anyway, just after I finished this thread I read this http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... lack-pain/ and thought it was relevant.

[ShesCrafty]

Ah, debates about the morality of slavery. I had to check my calendar to make sure that it was 2015 not 1815. I am literally gobsmacked that someone in this day and age would seriously argue in favour of slavery.

Anyway, just after I finished this thread I read this http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/20 ... lack-pain/ and thought it was relevant.

That old excerpt from the newspaper literally gave me chills. Awful then and even more awful that people today still think it's okay.

[zebra #13]

The difficulty with the acceptance of any of our backward, vicious practices is that it harms us, and our children. On the one hand, I'm pleased wit m'ownself's choice of citizenry in a state, the only state, that seceded from the Confederacy and joined the Union. But then have to admit, that it substituted slavery of a sort of its own children.

That our response, as a nation, to awful people doing awful things is simply to throw up another wall of hate, and to kill them. We demean our own souls by claiming to envy prisoners their "cushy" lives.

In the name of someone's profit, my nation teaches terrorism to third world countries to control their populations. (Vide: School of the Americas) Refuses to worry about infant mortality rates, hunger, and food deserts because the bottom line of some corporation would be impacted. Puts the cost of educating our children directly into the pockets of people whose pockets are already full and overflowing. This includes both the voucher loving Waltons and the banks that make student loans for college. We observe passively as corporations cut back hours of workers to avoid paying benefits. Half of the nation does not even flinch when a former President suggested turning over our pension to his buddies to handle (SS). His brother thinks it's a good idea to propose phasing out the accompanying medical care for seniors--and he's considered a serious candidate for the Presidency.

Unless we wake up soon, the aquifers will be drained, the earth fractured and pumped full of poisons, our food will kill us. The bees and butterflies are dying at a terrifying rate. And yes, the goobers will be singing Dixie as the ship of the nation founders and sinks.

[VelociRapture]

I wrote out a long and very educational post regarding Frederick Douglass and Solomon Northup. . . only to lose all of it when the site logged me out. :angry-banghead:

CloakandDagger, I highly recommend you read Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, as well as Twelve Years a Slave. Both books are the true stories of men bought, sold, and forced to live in slavery - all in their own words.

Frederick Douglass was born into the institution of slavery. His mother was a slave and his father was likely his first master - rape and sexual abuse were shockingly common on plantations and in households were slaves were kept. He was separated from his mother as an infant in order to prevent him from bonding with her and forming normal familial relationships - despite this, his mother would regularly make the dangerous multi-mile walk to see her son before he went to bed at night and she would stay as long as she could before returning to her new master. Upon her death, Frederick states he felt the emotions most people would feel at the death of a complete stranger. He says this about his own mother, a woman who risked beatings and danger to see him once in a while because she loved him so much!

This is what true slavery was. It was not an institution that kept slaves well-fed, clothed, and healthy - it was an institution committed to dehumanizing people as much as possible in order to force them to accept whatever abuse was doled out to them. Slavery, at it's very core, was about more than just physical abuse - it was about the emotional, mental, and spiritual stunting of a race of people in order to control everything about them. If you tell someone they are no better than an animal enough times, while simultaneously depriving them of their liberty, happiness, and health they will eventually believe you.

Solomon Northup was a freeman born before the Civil War in New York state. He spent twelve agonizing years as a slave after he was kidnapped and sold to various masters in the Deep South. This was an intelligent, loving, and happy man who was torn away from his wife and children all so someone else could profit from the work produced by his labor.

I'll leave you with a quote from Northup's memoir:

"The existence of Slavery in its most cruel form among them has a tendency to brutalize the humane and finer feelings of their nature. Daily witnesses of human suffering — listening to the agonizing screeches of the slave — beholding him writhing beneath the merciless lash — bitten and torn by dogs — dying without attention, and buried without shroud or coffin — it cannot otherwise be expected, than that they should become brutified and reckless of human life…There may be humane masters, as there certainly are inhuman ones…nevertheless, the institution that tolerates such wrong and inhumanity as I have witnessed, is a cruel, unjust and barbarous one. Men may write fictions portraying lowly life as it is, or as it is not — may expatiate with owlish gravity upon the bliss of ignorance — discourse flippantly from arm chairs of the pleasures of slave life; but let them toil with him in the field — sleep with him in the cabin — feed with him on husks; let them behold him scourged, hunted, trampled on, and they will come back with another story in their mouths. Let them know the heart of the poor slave — learn his secret thoughts — thoughts he dare not utter in the hearing of the white man; let them sit by him in the silent watches of the night — converse with him in trustful confidence, of “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,†and they will find that ninety-nine out of every hundred are intelligent enough to understand their situation, and to cherish in their bosoms the love of freedom, as passionately as themselves."

[formergothardite]

On the subject of volunteer slaves, most of the time it was a way for rich people to exploit poor people. The people chose that path, not because it was a good one, but because they often had the choice between starving to death or . And then there is the Bible where if a male slave is freed but he wants to continue to have contact and live with his enslaved wife and kids he has to volunteer to be a slave for life. Which is a pretty manipulative and I bet slave owners exploited that as much as possible.

No matter how it is done, the institute of slavery is a horrible one. There is no good way to enslave a person.

[Mama Mia]

Here's the old definition:

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/slavery

Right now we have a system where in a "three strikes" environment where for doing NO harm to anyone else but relaxing in your back yard and smoking a joint while your white redneck neighbor is drinking himself drunk next door - literally, 'cause I've seen it - a young black male goes to jail for a LONG time. It is NOT by consent or contract, and he is there involuntary, I guarantee you. That's wrong, right? I'd bet you are FINE with a murderer being locked up - right? Honestly, I don't think anything's changed. I think racist white people that aren't just in the South, are still finding ways to oppress the poor, and especially the black poor, but also the Hispanic. In reality, most of the drug war "crimes" and a host of other petty contrived offenses need to be done away with, and the only enslavement should be for real damage to the life or well-being of others, but should be strictly limited to the restoration of such.

I think I see where you're going with this. And having only read a few of your posts, maybe I'm not reading them the same way as some others because of the background. I see you saying that being kept alive as a slave in the confederacy was horrible and wrong, but even in horrific, appalling conditions, is, to your thinking, marginally better than being a Jew under the Nazi's . Because even though it was for purely selfish reasons the southern slave master would generally attempt to keep enslaved people alive in order to profit. Where the stated purpose of the Nazi's was to kill as many Jewish people as possible. Is that what you're trying to convey? That both are horribly wrong, but one represented certain death and under the other there was at least a chance for escape. I can see that, but fighting under the flag of either, or wanting to fly the flag of either, would still be advocating for a horrible, evil ideal. I'm sure, under either system there were plenty of young kids who were soldiers who were conscripted and had no choice, or did what people under any government tend to do - follow along with blind allegiance to their homeland. I think that's a given in any war. You could take other horrible genocides and atrocities that are less well known and say the same thing. If it's an evil system, it doesn't need to be continued to be represented in a romanticized, historically blurred, fashion. And flying either of those now just Continues to promote that evil.

As far as the criminal system and slavery, the answer to a criminal " justice" system that is hugely unjust isn't to just find another way to make make lives miserable for people who are lower income and/ or non-white ( and young, and male, if we want to be specific) . The solution is to just stop the failed, incredibly corrupt, racist, classist war on drugs in the first place. Stop throwing these same people in jail for non- violent crimes. Stop generating fodder for a profit making prison system. Save prison for people who really are a danger to society. And, for that matter, either get rid of fines, or make them truly sliding scale - a $200 ticket can escalate to wreck a poor persons life , while the same $200 fine means nothing to a wealthy person. How is that justice? If it's a behavior society wants to dissuade, but isn't serious enough to warrant prison ( which would cover most non- violent crimes) - require community service for a reasonable number of hours.

Slavery for crimes wouldn't improve anything.

[twinmama]

I see a difference in being indentured for a cause, such as crime, and because of your skin color, or who your daddy was. Our society is content to essentially own many, many black people because of a stupid "drug war". The government may not claim that they own you, but you are NOT free to go and you become a drain to the taxpayers. There's no win in our current system.

Yeah, I need someone to explain to me how our current prison system is not enslaving people? Some places they do jobs for pennies, they aren't allowed to leave at all, they are told when to eat and sleep. They are dehumanized. They may not be whipped with the full knowledge of the establishment, but they are certainly mistreated or not treated with the respect a human being deserves. And after all that, some are actually legally killed via death penalty.

Edited to add that in no way do I think we need to make our prison system a slave system. Just that our prison system is a horrific thing that needs a LOT of reform with emphasis on rehabilitation not punishment.

[formergothardite]

Interestingly enough someone in a prison in Vermont did sue the state for treating him like a slave because he had to wash clothes three days a week, was paid very little, got an bad infection on his neck because of the poor working conditions and was threatened with solitary confinement if he did not work. Initially the case was thrown out but he appealed and the original ruling was overturned. A program that was originally supposed to teach prisoners life skills and give them job skills had instead turned into something horrible and slave like.

Our prison system needs massive reforms, but it can be reformed. Slavery, no matter what is always going to be an awful institution no matter how nice slaves are treated.

[CloakNDagger]

I think I see where you're going with this. And having only read a few of your posts, maybe I'm not reading them the same way as some others because of the background. I see you saying that being kept alive as a slave in the confederacy was horrible and wrong, but even in horrific, appalling conditions, is, to your thinking, marginally better than being a Jew under the Nazi's . Because even though it was for purely selfish reasons the southern slave master would generally attempt to keep enslaved people alive in order to profit. Where the stated purpose of the Nazi's was to kill as many Jewish people as possible. Is that what you're trying to convey? That both are horribly wrong, but one represented certain death and under the other there was at least a chance for escape. I can see that, but fighting under the flag of either, or wanting to fly the flag of either, would still be advocating for a horrible, evil ideal. I'm sure, under either system there were plenty of young kids who were soldiers who were conscripted and had no choice, or did what people under any government tend to do - follow along with blind allegiance to their homeland. I think that's a given in any war. You could take other horrible genocides and atrocities that are less well known and say the same thing. If it's an evil system, it doesn't need to be continued to be represented in a romanticized, historically blurred, fashion. And flying either of those now just Continues to promote that evil.

As far as the criminal system and slavery, the answer to a criminal " justice" system that is hugely unjust isn't to just find another way to make make lives miserable for people who are lower income and/ or non-white ( and young, and male, if we want to be specific) . The solution is to just stop the failed, incredibly corrupt, racist, classist war on drugs in the first place. Stop throwing these same people in jail for non- violent crimes. Stop generating fodder for a profit making prison system. Save prison for people who really are a danger to society. And, for that matter, either get rid of fines, or make them truly sliding scale - a $200 ticket can escalate to wreck a poor persons life , while the same $200 fine means nothing to a wealthy person. How is that justice? If it's a behavior society wants to dissuade, but isn't serious enough to warrant prison ( which would cover most non- violent crimes) - require community service for a reasonable number of hours.

Slavery for crimes wouldn't improve anything.

You actually are reading what I said and intended to say. The others aren't trying to understand me.

[formergothardite]

You actually are reading what I said and intended to say. The others aren't trying to understand me.

No I understood that completely. What I don't understand is why you think it is "over the top" to put the Confederate flag in the same category as other flags(like the Nazi one) that only stood for horrific crimes against humanity.

[VelociRapture]

You actually are reading what I said and intended to say. The others aren't trying to understand me.

CloakNDagger, I just want to say I give you credit for coming on here. It can't be easy to have your opinions or beliefs challenged - but it is an incredibly important part of your emotional and mental development. Hopefully some of the posts made here - especially by formergothardite - will help you understand our views.

[CloakNDagger]

No I understood that completely. What I don't understand is why you think it is "over the top" to put the Confederate flag in the same category as other flags(like the Nazi one) that only stood for horrific crimes against humanity.

Because in my mind the Confederate flag is really no worse than our current one. New York and Boston were some of the biggest participants in the slave trade profits and the entire country was responsible for the treatment of the natives here and the racism you want to relegate to the Confederacy was essentially present in the entire country and I would argue exists in a a large subculture of this country to this day.

And I don't have a Confederate flag up now nor do I intend to in the future but I think those calling for its complete removal are under a delusion that they don't hold a double standard.

[formergothardite]

While our current flag has stood for many things(many horrible), the Confederate flag only stood for one thing and that dehumanizing people and killing them slowly. If the Confederate flag had ever stood for anything good, it might be different, but it didn't. So it gets stuck in the same category as the Nazi flag. Why is it any better? They killed the slaves slowly?

And please tell me you have at least thought about how horrible it is to enslave people in any situation. There is no good slave option, only bad ones. It doesn't matter what reason you make up to dehumanize and enslave someone, it isn't a good reason.

ETA:

Nazi Germany - creating a country around dehumanizing and killing people

Southern Confederacy - creating a country around dehumanizing, exploiting and working people to death.

When it comes to horrific events it is best to not play the worst game of "Would you rather" ever. Some things are just so bad that we don't really need to compare and contrast and take guesses and which instance of suffering we would rather endure.

[CloakNDagger]

Let me simplify the Civil War for you. One group of people chose to use offensive forcible coercion against another group of people while retaining their own basic racist ideals. The South was clearly racist, was wrong to enslave a race of people based on their skin color, and deserved to lose, but their interests were basically defensive. Additionally, I believe that the war would have taken place even if the South had been convinced to free their slaves because the Northern states DID choose to alter the essential form of the compact between the states.

[CloakNDagger]

The fundamental reason that some people who are not racist choose to still support the Confederacy is because they believe as did our founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence that states, governments, and groups of people have the right to break away from tyrannical governments if their interests no longer align.

[zebra #13]

Sorry. The South lied to itself then about what it was doing, and is still lying to itself.

[CloakNDagger]

Sorry. The South lied to itself then about what it was doing, and is still lying to itself.

Or you refuse to accept the evidence of letters, papers, and oral testimony.

[formergothardite]

Let me simplify the Civil War for you. One group of people chose to use offensive forcible coercion against another group of people while retaining their own basic racist ideals. The South was clearly racist, was wrong to enslave a race of people based on their skin color, and deserved to lose, but their interests were basically defensive. Additionally, I believe that the war would have taken place even if the South had been convinced to free their slaves because the Northern states DID choose to alter the essential form of the compact between the states.

Let me simply it for you a little more.

Guy A kidnaps and murders someone.

Guy B kidnaps someone but instead of just straight up murder he uses the person to make himself money. He provides very, very minimal food, shelter and clothing, just enough to keep them from dying, but the person is still underfed, kept in dismal living conditions and clothed in almost nothing. He is working the person to death with the hard labor, little food and poor living conditions, but the person isn't going to die right away.

In your mind it would be completely over the top to act like Guy A and B are equally bad people. Correct? It would be okay for some people to even support Guy B because he has some other points that are really good even if that support means that he can keep working his kidnapped person to death and then gain the opportunity to kidnap more people. Those people who support his other causes and keep it so that he can continue kidnapping and working people to death shouldn't be judged for that. Right?

Stop justifying the Confederacy by saying that their actions were "basically defensive". You know what they were fucking defending? Enslaving people.

[formergothardite]

The fundamental reason that some people who are not racist choose to still support the Confederacy is because they believe as did our founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence that states, governments, and groups of people have the right to break away from tyrannical governments if their interests no longer align.

If your morality and God leads you to choose the rights of a state over actual human rights then your morality sucks. The South wasn't moving away from a tyrannical government, it was moving towards expanding a country founded on slavery. Don't downplay it by pretending otherwise. You can drag up all the letters you want, but those people were either completely ignorant of a cause they decided to go fight for(which isn't admirable*) or were okay with a country founded on slavery and whose goal was to expand slavery.

*I"m not talking about the people who were forced to fight against their will, I'm talking about the people who chose to fight because they apparently didn't realize they were fighting to start a country that was actually taking away some state rights and was founded on slavery.

[Coco]

CnD, you seem to be under the illusion that slaves were generally well fed, clothed and taken care of. But that isn't what happened. Sure there were some masters who took good care, but many didn't. From my own home state here is a little history of how slaves were cared for:

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchi ... ellum/5602

Slavery wasn't this "maintained" idea that you seem to think it was.

Treated like dogs, including feeding children from troughs.

[formergothardite]

Coco, it is a crying shame that people were forced to live like that and it is still downplayed by so many acting like the Confederacy/Confederate flag stands for state rights.

[Coco]

I agree that they're likely racists, or at least were until their brand of celebrity forced them to be around people who weren't white (which I only hope has at least made them less ignorant. Probably not, but I digress.) I just don't know if they'd embrace a confederate flag BECAUSE they're (alleged?) racists.

I'm an excommunicated Mormon and all the bigotry I was raised to believe would make your head spin, even after the "reform". No one I know (who were so clearly racist) had anything to do with the confederate flag.

i guess everyone's already seen this. But the comments are legitimately scary. I know, youtube comments :lol: but some people are really arguing that skin pigment relates to IQ and how much a person is worth. Racism at its nastiest. If Mormons believe even a fraction of that mess, thank goodness Mitt didn't get elected. No way do people like that need to be in a powerful position to dole out favors to their cronies or elect supreme court judges or other appointments, etc. Kind of puts his ugly comments about the 47% in a new light. And this is a really far out there tangent comment from the confederate flag, but i know some people who want to outlaw Affirmative Action and who have given off the impression that they think that God puts people in power because they're superior, not just crooks taking advantage of marginalized lower classes.

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