Josh Duggar Admits Molestation of 5 Juveniles - Part 5

[crazysnark]

Why the hatred for vyckie? I just discovered her and found her to be quite funny.

[Jilltoo]

Forced to forgive, forced to drive down to FL with ONLY Josh for his wedding. It makes me sick.

I'm pretty sure TLC was following them, they even had a camera in the car.

[OneQuill]

I do think that part of Michelle's cavalcade of bigotry is projection and denial. It's easy to persecute and denounce the Other as a predator. It's not easy to face that your own son is a predator.

I agree, don't forget hatred toward anyone not having the same belief system. No, it's not easy to find out anyone close to you is a predator. I had a friend find that out about her Dad. But, I think under their patriarchy system they believe that no wrongdoing really exists. I wonder if they worked so hard to cover it up to protect their belief system as well as to protect their son. I wonder if they believe their way of doing things is really what God wants, and therefore would trump any law of man?

So many many questions.

[purposed2015]

and you think this is a good thing

I am a people magazine devotee - and even I am disturbed that people.com knows about this place

I guarantee you it will be all over people magazine come Thursday including every other weekly and what peace will they have then

I know, even though they don't have internet access or tv they won't be able to avoid it every time they go through a grocery check out. I think the weekly gossip mags will be chewing on this for a long time. They can't stay in forever can they ? or maybe they can ?

[apple1]

Why the hatred for vyckie? I just discovered her and found her to be quite funny.

Feel free to use the FJ search function. When you finish there, feel free to go search the old FJ Yuku board. It's there, if you are interested. I'm not going to rewrite it. There is a very long history. By your own statement, you just "discovered" her. Nuff sed.

[Palimpsest]

I don't know; if so, I haven't seen it.

Unfortunately, V y c k i e Ga rri son is having a heyday being interviewed and posting articles. :x (which is a crying shame, and I have already seen one of her things being used against all "Duggar haters" on another internet venue)

Leave it to V y c k i e to spin the whole thing to toot her own horn. (And yes, there is a reaon I typed her name this way).

Just an FYI:

Kathryn Joyce is now working with the Arkansas Times on an adoption and rehoming project. http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/ar ... ng-project The Arkansas Times is pretty out there on its distaste for Fundies.

I can imagine she's working on an in-depth article right now. It should be good.

And I share Apple1's dislike of V y c k i e, but I'm not at all surprised that she is all over this with her tongue hanging out. She gives people in recovery from Fundamentalism a bad name.

[polecat]

I agree, don't forget hatred toward anyone not having the same belief system. No, it's not easy to find out anyone close to you is a predator. I had a friend find that out about her Dad. But, I think under their patriarchy system they believe that no wrongdoing really exists. I wonder if they worked so hard to cover it up to protect their belief system as well as to protect their son. I wonder if they believe their way of doing things is really what God wants, and therefore would trump any law of man?

So many many questions.

I think so. We were always taught not to bring shame to the cause of Christ or give "the world" any reason to mock Christianity. So it would absolutely make sense for them to try to cover it up and handle it in-house rather than bring outsiders in. As others have already mentioned, the idea to bring it before church elders is also common -- they only go to the law when the person refuses to play penitent and may not even then because of the doctrine of forgiveness. (which really isn't what they think it is, but that's another topic).

[Shadoewolf]

Let me preface this by saying I don't presume to tell anyone how they should or do feel. As dangerous as a generalization may be, this is what I'm seeing.

This subject has meant a lot to many people, and I think we all agree to some degree that Josh is pretty messed up and his parents are the root of the evil. While some may be projecting, others aren't. And a previous poster is right, we don't know a great many things. HOWEVER.....

I think that whether or not Josh should be and/or is forgiven is absolutely up to the victims. No-one should presume to understand what their feelings are, especially because of the world they live in. But I think what I'm seeing a lot of people say is it angers them that there's a good possibility the girls could be FORCED into forgiving Josh. Through guilt, through manipulation, through JTTH. That it wasn't a choice for them, and they never knew there could be another way. Its very possible the girls have let this go and moved on with their lives (or had, until the news broke and now its all right back on the forefront) and if they have then I am grateful for whatever peace they may have found. If they haven't (as it seems Jinger might still be struggling) then all we can do from the outside is hope. Hope that they find the courage to stand up and break away, hope they find access to the type of help they need to begin to heal.

For the victims of ALL abuse, there has to be hope. There has to be the ability to see a light through the darkness, even if its just a pinprick.

[apple1]

I am bringing this up because, even though there have been numerous posts on these threads talking about the victims "forgiving" -- I haven't seen what I am about to say.

The word "forgive" means different things to different people. The following is how I - and some others define it.

It can be appropriate for a victim to choose to forgive a perpetrator who is not worthy of being forgiven --- but in the sense of the victim choosing to do whatever work is necessary to move beyond the victimization and into a better place for her/himself. This is not necessarily dependent on the perpetrator's actions. The other caveat is that forgiveness does NOT equal restoration of relationships/situations/potential for interaction. Many perpetrators should NEVER have that kind of restoration.

[justbecause]

Let me preface this by saying I don't presume to tell anyone how they should or do feel. As dangerous as a generalization may be, this is what I'm seeing.

This subject has meant a lot to many people, and I think we all agree to some degree that Josh is pretty messed up and his parents are the root of the evil. While some may be projecting, others aren't. And a previous poster is right, we don't know a great many things. HOWEVER.....

I think that whether or not Josh should be and/or is forgiven is absolutely up to the victims. No-one should presume to understand what their feelings are, especially because of the world they live in. But I think what I'm seeing a lot of people say is it angers them that there's a good possibility the girls could be FORCED into forgiving Josh. Through guilt, through manipulation, through JTTH. That it wasn't a choice for them, and they never knew there could be another way. Its very possible the girls have let this go and moved on with their lives (or had, until the news broke and now its all right back on the forefront) and if they have then I am grateful for whatever peace they may have found. If they haven't (as it seems Jinger might still be struggling) then all we can do from the outside is hope. Hope that they find the courage to stand up and break away, hope they find access to the type of help they need to begin to heal.

For the victims of ALL abuse, there has to be hope. There has to be the ability to see a light through the darkness, even if its just a pinprick.

On that note, I think that if the girls or extended family would make a statement that is other than "Josh has been forgiven" it would make a LOUD statement. I'm sure there are many who look at this family as role models and if they would stand up and say that this has not been ok, I think that others would then start to ask themselves questions and search for answers.

Within the terrible situation there 'could' be a glimpse of light if someone would come forward. I hope that they do. I'm sure there are many other girls in this situation watching how they handle it.

[Clementine]

I am happy that Josh has been exposed. Hopefully this can prevent more kids from becoming his victims.

I grew up in a small rural town with 10,000 people. It was a very safe place and we kids were allowed to play outside, unsupervised,we were allowed to go and play in the woods and we all walked or took the bike to school. Exept for one girl, who lived on the same block as the rest of us. Her mother always drove her to school, less than one kilometer away, and waited for her to go inside. She was always waiting for her outside the school after classes were done. She was never allowed to go and play in the forest and every time we were playing on the street outside the home, her mother would check on her every ten minutes. We basically thoght the mother was insane or hysterically overprotective, but we never made a big deal of it. It was just the way it was.

Fast forward 30 years. I am reading the local newspaper online. A man in his 40's has been arrested for abusing his stepchild and his biological children. It turns out that it was the older brother of the sheltered girl... and it was also revealed that he had abused his sister as a child. That really explained a lot to us. Luckily the "hysteric" mother had passed away a couple of years earlier so she didn't have to live through the trial and his prison sentence.

I don't think that a person who abuses little children will just stop, unless there is treatment involved, real treatment, not praying and being sent to a Jesus camp. Why would Josh stop preying on kids now that he has three, soon four of them, available in his home, brought up in an environment that is just set up for abuse without anybody ever getting to know it?

Anna should be damn grateful that her husband has been exposed.

[Razzmatazz]

Gothard/Huckabee/Hobby Lobby and the "treatment" center.

http://www.arktimes.com/arkansas/a-day- ... oid=865453

[nastyhobbitses]

I don't think that a person who abuses little children will just stop, unless there is treatment involved, real treatment, not praying and being sent to a Jesus camp. Why would Josh stop preying on kids now that he has three, soon four of them, available in his home, brought up in an environment that is just set up for abuse without anybody ever getting to know it?

Anna should be damn grateful that her husband has been exposed.

This. I am incredibly fearful for Josh's children. People who serially molest or sexually assault don't just "stop" doing that when told not to or whatever. Sometimes it's because they don't care that it's wrong and they just want to do it. Sometimes they just cannot stop. I've heard of pedophiles who go through incredible lengths to will themselves not to hurt children, because they DON'T want to hurt anyone, but the thoughts and urges still exist. I believe that people who do bad things can be redeemed, move forward, and become good people, but for that redemption to happen, you need actual psychiatric help and rehabilitation, not Jeebus. I hope fervently that Josh has the willpower and humanity not to harm his own children, but considering that he didn't get any real help after the initial incident and continued to live in an environment that taught him to sexualize even baby girls, I wouldn't be shocked if he did.

This situation is just all-around horrible. I do think that Josh had to learn to hurt people by being hurt himself (we know that he grew up in a household where violence was a means to make people obey you, and was taught that even normal displays of affection between family are sexual and bad, and that mental illness is just a moral failing), and now his actions have harmed not only his sisters, who had to live with him and the secret of what he did to them for twelve long years while they had to smile and look pretty for the cameras, but also his own family, who have now lost both their sources of income with a baby on the way, and may well have been victimized as well.

The only silver lining I can see is that this might make people more aware of the reality of sexual violence: it's most often not the nasty man in the trenchcoat who snatches away your child from the bushes, but someone a child knows and trusts, and even loves.

[Lillybee]

A good article on how ATI shames sex abuse victims.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/heres-h ... e-victims/

[SassyPants]

I am having a hard time even contemplating that JB might have made the decisions that he did when these incidents occurred, because he was operating from a Christian standpoint and using Christian principles. IMO, money and his own political future were the driving forces. Did JB not make a statement that the reason he was a 1 term AR politician was d/t sin in the camp?

I hate how JB perverts religion. He uses religion to justify behaviors, both good and bad. He intertwines Gothardism with Christianity. He uses religion as a weapon against others. He has used religion to mind screw his own children. He uses religion and ignores free will in excusing all sorts of Duggar behaviors.

The man is a fraud. Those poor kids were starting life at such a deficit.

[Boogalou]

Agreed with the bold. There is no known evidence of abuse of the boys, but it bears discussion as a possibility. Claiming that it is true based on what we know? No. But could it be possible? Certainly. Until a few days ago, there was no evidence of abuse of any of the girls, or anyone at all. Persistent rumors, but no evidence. So I think it's valid to discuss this as a possibility.

We should be concerned about all of the children. Even those who weren't abused in any way, they were witness to, if not the actual acts, then at least the fallout of it all. And that in and of itself would be bad enough.

Girl or boy, abused or not, they have all been done a grave disservice by their parents, their church elders, and the legal authorities.

Someone mentioned in an earlier part of this thread that Josh was given his own room in the TTH. Idle speculation perhaps. But someday we may look back and once again say, "the signs were there". As with all things, time will tell.

Using this ridiculous "logic", everything is a possibility. Everyone could possibly be a pedophile! Everyone could possibly be a secret member of ISIS! Everyone is possibly a murderer! There's no evidence for any of that, but who cares, it's a possibility!

Use your brain here. What happened is bad enough. There is no need for your ridiculous speculation based on nothing whatsoever to make it worse.

[happy atheist]

Well, seeing as how this all started out as internet rumors and gossip, I think it's very important that all reports of abuse be taken seriously and investigated. This kind of abuse happens in every socioeconomic and religious class. It has to stop. How Josh is is diagnosed is really beside the point.

!	{TEXT1}:
	But you are not making a report of abuse. You're making up a report of speculated abuse.

[mamallama]

I just wanted to throw something out here...Back in the 80's I volunteered at a rape crisis hotline and we were taught to always refer to women who had been sexually assaulted as "survivors" instead of victims. One of the thing sexual crimes do is rob women of their power and using a word like "victim" furthers that. I have to say over the years victim has taken on a worse meaning as someone who "can't get over it". In any case the daughters are the only real heroes in this scenario, despite everything they reported Josh's actions and I like to think the fact that they repeated brought it to light may have forced Jim Bob to go to pedo-cop and get Josh out of the house for a few months.

[happy atheist]

Alice's claims were dismissed as speculation all these years. Let that set in for a minute.

!	{TEXT1}:
	The major difference is that YOU KNOW THAT YOU ARE SPECULATING. Alice was telling the truth, you are guessing and making shit up. You do not have any actual knowledge of anything that happened. You are not a Duggar insider. You did not witness anything. You're playing a game of "what if." If you can't see the difference, then you need to step away from the internet for a while.

[Buzzard]

You're right, that is a blog. However, they make a very interesting point. Zimmerman has been appointed by Huckabee in the past.

She was appointed to two committees, not a really big deal. She was elected on her own after serving as a prosecutor for years.

What I'd like to know is if boob gave to her campaign. Perhaps someone with better Google skillz than me can find her disclosures.

[latraviata]

I am happy that Josh has been exposed. Hopefully this can prevent more kids from becoming his victims.

I grew up in a small rural town with 10,000 people. It was a very safe place and we kids were allowed to play outside, unsupervised,we were allowed to go and play in the woods and we all walked or took the bike to school. Exept for one girl, who lived on the same block as the rest of us. Her mother always drove her to school, less than one kilometer away, and waited for her to go inside. She was always waiting for her outside the school after classes were done. She was never allowed to go and play in the forest and every time we were playing on the street outside the home, her mother would check on her every ten minutes. We basically thoght the mother was insane or hysterically overprotective, but we never made a big deal of it. It was just the way it was.

Fast forward 30 years. I am reading the local newspaper online. A man in his 40's has been arrested for abusing his stepchild and his biological children. It turns out that it was the older brother of the sheltered girl... and it was also revealed that he had abused his sister as a child. That really explained a lot to us. Luckily the "hysteric" mother had passed away a couple of years earlier so she didn't have to live through the trial and his prison sentence.

I don't think that a person who abuses little children will just stop, unless there is treatment involved, real treatment, not praying and being sent to a Jesus camp. Why would Josh stop preying on kids now that he has three, soon four of them, available in his home, brought up in an environment that is just set up for abuse without anybody ever getting to know it?

Anna should be damn grateful that her husband has been exposed.

Josh was 13/14 years old and fondled his sisters while asleep, that doesn't make him a pedophile. It needed to be addressed properly, absolutely!

[happy atheist]

Agreed with the bold. There is no known evidence of abuse of the boys, but it bears discussion as a possibility. Claiming that it is true based on what we know? No. But could it be possible? Certainly. Until a few days ago, there was no evidence of abuse of any of the girls, or anyone at all. Persistent rumors, but no evidence. So I think it's valid to discuss this as a possibility.

!	{TEXT1}:
	But rumors don't carry any weight when you make them up yourself.

[ShadowyOne]

Feel free to use the FJ search function. When you finish there, feel free to go search the old FJ Yuku board. It's there, if you are interested. I'm not going to rewrite it. There is a very long history. By your own statement, you just "discovered" her. Nuff sed.

Please excuse me, but my home internet is on the fritz, and not being quickly resolved due to the holiday weekend, and I've been burning through data on mobile devices to try & follow everything. Tapa's search function is less than ideal, so if someone could just affirm my fuzzy memory, I'd appreciate it.

Was it that we fell out with her over her refusal to remove RR's story, after the end of the RR/Alecto debacle? I have a vague memory of it from around Thanksgiving 2013. Is that about it?

[latraviata]

I just wanted to throw something out here...Back in the 80's I volunteered at a rape crisis hotline and we were taught to always refer to women who had been sexually assaulted as "survivors" instead of victims. One of the thing sexual crimes do is rob women of their power and using a word like "victim" furthers that. I have to say over the years victim has taken on a worse meaning as someone who "can't get over it". In any case the daughters are the only real heroes in this scenario, despite everything they reported Josh's actions and I like to think the fact that they repeated brought it to light may have forced Jim Bob to go to pedo-cop and get Josh out of the house for a few months.

The Duggar girls are not rape survivers! They have been inappropriately fondled by their 13/14 year old brother.

[nastyhobbitses]

I am having a hard time even contemplating that JB might have made the decisions that he did when these incidents occurred, because he was operating from a Christian standpoint and using Christian principles. IMO, money and his own political future were the driving forces. Did JB not make a statement that the reason he was a 1 term AR politician was d/t sin in the camp?

I hate how JB perverts religion. He uses religion to justify behaviors, both good and bad. He intertwines Gothardism with Christianity. He uses religion as a weapon against others. He has used religion to mind screw his own children. He uses religion and ignores free will in excusing all sorts of Duggar behaviors.

The man is a fraud. Those poor kids were starting life at such a deficit.

He claims to take the word of God literally and live as a man of God, but likes to ignore those inconvenient bits of Christianity that teach justice, mercy, kindness, humility, and focusing on your own sins before condemning the sins of others.

To paraphrase one of Disney's best movies, Jim Bob Duggar longed to purge the world of vice and sin. And he saw corruption everywhere, except within.