Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Rumors - Part 4

[trissy]

I'm worried about Josh's children. I will tell you why. When i was around 5 my father molested me. I only remember this one episode. He came into my bed and did this. I was staying at my grandma's and so was he for some reason. My parents divorced when i was 3, so i would go visit him and my paternal grandparents on weekends. I am now 43. Anyway, i found out recently that he also molested his younger sister, my aunt, when he was in his early to mid and she was a pre teen.

I think a lot of the time the abuse continues for generations. Also, my father and Josh are like twins. They are both narcisstic, smug, cold, etc... My dad was the oldest child too. And from what my aunt tells me and what i witnessed was how boys were treated differently in that family, my aunt the only girl. The boys were rarely punished and treated like princes. Once my dad painted a swastika on the neighbors driveway, they were from Germany, and all he got was a "stern talking to" no punishment according to my aunt. So yes, i fear for his children. Something needs to be done .What can CPS do?? God this is horrible!

[trissy]

I meant to say he was in his early to mid teens.

[carriedaway14]

I agree that strangers should not be emailing the girls. This is something they went through over a decade ago. They may have healed. They don't need strangers telling them how they should feel. It has to be embarrassing. The media needs to keep them out of it! So many on here want to scream at the top of their lungs that is was his sisters. No, that should have been sealed! He was also a juvenile and would not have gone to prison. He would have been sent to a juvenile treatment center for sexual offenders. Then lots of follow ups I'm sure.

I also see people on here questioning Jana going on the RV trip with them, the girls traveling to FL for wedding prep with him alone. No, they were not alone. TLC was a chaperone in both these cases. That may have been a comfort to all.

There were cameras in the car Josh was driving. I imagine Jim Bob and Michelle watched all of the footage in the car. Also there's a picture of Jana sharing a bed with Josh and there's a pillow between them and her arms are folded, protecting her chest. Also, I'm pretty sure Jana seemed to be riding with the TLC crew for the majority of the trip. In older threads about Jana being edited out noticed she was not in the RV for most of the shots.

[DaysAgo]

This is a good link from a year ago that explains a bit of the religious culture of the Duggars:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ement.html

[church_of_dog]

Sigh. Yes it would be a great start. Alas, in my opinion, he feels that it has been settled, years ago. He prayed and was forgiven. Our opinion, our forgiveness is not an issue. It is not wanted or needed.

Sadly you are probably correct. It's just frustrating to think that even the scale of public reaction, backlash, leaving the job, etc., wouldn't be enough to open that thought process, to suggest that his response back then might possibly have not been enough. Urgh.

[ljohnson2006]

J'Chelle and Boob are just as to blame as Smugs. I know they're not mandated reporters, because they're not public school teachers, but they should've cared enough about their son, and the people he victimized to do it. Many people are to blame. The victims are not. J'Chelle and Boob need to stop acting like Smuggar is some golden child, and all should be forgiven. Not how it works in the real world.

[ApologistsBeDamned]

The name of this site is freejinger.org. WIth Jessa and Jill out of the house don't you think Jinger has heard out this site?

These adult Duggars are more wordly than many people are giving them credit for. You can see it the way their mannerisms and dress have evolved and the phrases they use.

Now whether they are doing this to appear more approachable to veiwers or so they can proselytize or just because they have picked it up in their travels it still shows they are not ignorant of how the other side lives.

At a certain point people are going to have to realize these adult children have made a conscious decision to continue in this lifestyle because it is just not possible they are still so sheltered.

[AB45377]

She is already retiring in June so I don't think anything will happen to her, it's like some have said its Jim Bob calling in favors...

And Huckabee it the one that appointed her to be a judge in Arkansas juvenile courts.

[Clementine]

I am very interested in the connection between the Duggar family and the police officer that got 56 years in jail for child pornography. It's a strange coincidence. I think there should be a separate thread for researching more about it.

Pedophile rings have more or less been in the tinfoil hat/conspiracy theory land, but after the pedophile rings and grooming gangs that have been exposed in the UK, and that apparently have been going on for decades, I am sure something similar could happen in the US too.

[eri]

The child who discussed spanking did clarify that the parents did not leave bruises on them with the rod. I think the majority of Americans consider corporal punishment to be acceptable in some circumstances, so I don't see this information as something that most papers would think is newsworthy ESPECIALLY considering the other information being discussed atm.

I personally don't think spanking is a particularly effective method of discipline because it only teaches children to be frightened of consequences when they're caught, and doesn't teach them why their actions were wrong or inappropriate. Instead it teaches them that bad things are bad because you end up spanked, but if they think they can get away with it, that won't deter them at all. However, I don't think that spanking itself (even when using an object like a paddle) is abusive provided the parents doing it are not out of control emotionally (no angry outbursts and immediate physical discipline, that's a recipe for overreactions and emotional damage to the child) and provided they don't leave bruises or abrasions on the child. I was spanked as a child (sparingly) and I don't consider it to have been abusive. I just also don't consider it to have taught me right from wrong or changed my behavior in any significant way. It does create the opportunity for abusive situations to occur in parents who do not have the necessary levels of self-control, and it doesn't actually deter misbehavior in the children - it just motivates them to hide their wrongdoings. But I don't think most people would consider the spanking as described to be abuse, certainly not when the molestation and the failure of the parents to properly address or prevent the molestation is much more obviously abusive.

Sorry I'm so early in the thread as it is moving at lightspeed.

Most people who are OK with corporeal punishment don't realize that if you smacked an adult with a rod, it would be aggravated assault or battery. People rationalize doing it to children and I think it is very important that this perspective is addressed. I think we can evolve passed hitting kids.

[weezie]

So I wonder how the parents have dovetailed the purity and modesty ideals of Gothardism [what an effing joke, based on what we know about Gothard men] with what has happened to their daughters at the hands of their son? Think about Jinger's speech at Jessa's wedding/rehearsal dinner...how did JB and M convince their daughters that they are still whole per Gothardism?

JB and M should have their parental rights terminated.

I have wondered that myself. Then, it occurred to me that in the beginning of the girls' courtships, the chaperones were often the older ones. What on earth would a bunch of teens talk about, huh? Something that worldly Derrick considers no big deal could be mind blowing to these sheltered girls. D and Ben may have been the chink in the Fundie armor that allowed more mainstream and less oppressive viewpoints through. Just a guess.

[veron1que]

I am very interested in the connection between the Duggar family and the police officer that got 56 years in jail for child pornography. It's a strange co

incidence. I think there should be a separate thread for researching more about it.

Pedophile rings have more or less been in the tinfoil hat/conspiracy theory land, but after the pedophile rings and grooming gangs that have been exposed in the UK, and that apparently have been going on for decades, I am sure something similar could happen in the US too.

Maybe it's the cynic in me. But I don't find the coincidence all that strange, because I believe pedophilia is a lot more rampant then most people think.

[LittleOleMe]

So here's a theoretical:

Let's say that a 14-year-old boy molests several girls, including his sisters and a houseguest.

Let's say that the boy is certainly old enough to know right from wrong in this regard, but has also been raised with the very warped ideas about sex, sexuality, patriarchy and power that we generally discuss here.

Let's say that the boy's parents make no useful attempt to prevent him from reoffending, nor to get him or his victims actual therapy.

Let's say that we know from the rest of society that pedophilia (which we do NOT know is the condition of this boy or not) is EXTREMELY hard to self-control, to the point that some offenders choose to be castrated in an attempt to get their behavior under their own control. In a world where self-control seems to be harder and harder to come by for just mundane "shoulds" like sleep, diet and exercise, compulsions anywhere on the sexual spectrum seem to be off the charts in terms of how difficult to self-control they are.

So basically I'm saying that this boy, while knowing right from wrong, may not have had a hope in hades of controlling himself, all things considered.

And when his parents take XYZ ineffective action and then tell him he's now fine and all is right with the world and Jesus, that certainly is not going to increase his ability to solve this problem.

Now let's say that this boy is now an adult who, while still in the cultish world he grew up in, now also has access to the rest of society. Including the ability to understand the concepts I just wrote above, and including the ability to understand the concept of actual therapy to control behavior and thoughts, and therapy to process past traumas, and therapy to understand how to be truly apologetic and repentant toward those he hurt both directly and indirectly.

So, the question is -- given all the above, what ideally should the man do now? I think first on the list is "ensure the protection of those around him" by being brutally honest about his condition, followed quickly by "get real therapy" and "issue authentic apologies." That would be a start.

Does anyone wonder (or care?) whether Josh is thinking along these lines?

NB: I'm sure this post will strike some as defending him, but it is not. I'm simply pretending that deep inside him is a speck that wants to do the right thing now, regardless of the past.

I really want to believe this. But I'm not sure that I can. Maybe if he hadn't campaigned against the civil liberties of lbgt people, saying they were a threat a children. Maybe if he didn't equate homosexuality with child molestation. Maybe then I could attempt to believe that deep down he does want to do the right thing now, that he does recognize that he has a problem and can't control his "urges". But I just can't. He has spent years actively trying to paint homosexuals as child molesters. He has spent years fighting against women's rights to choose, even in the case of incest and rape, essentially saying that if he had managed to impregnate one of his sisters, he believes she should have had to carry it to term and then raise it herself since adoption is also evil in gothardom. He is a predator and should not be around small children, even his own. And if Anna had any brains at all, she would leave him and take her children far away. They're young enough that in a few years they won't be recognized if she keeps them out of the spotlight. She can dye her hair and change her - and their - last name and start wearing pants to blend in and attempt to live a normal life. Too bad she won't do that.

[twinmama]

I absolutely understand. I directed my messages to Derick's mother and Ben's mother. Hopefully they can pass along the basics of the message - which consisted of there are many people praying for you guys. I figured it was better to send it to them than direct to the girls (I did post to Jessa and Jill's Instagram accounts, but doubt they'll ever see the comment because of all the other comments coming in). I truly hope that they are getting support from loved ones right now (which I also mentioned).

Under any other circumstances, I wouldn't have considered reaching out. The fact that their entire family and the majority of people they know subscribe to the same disgusting views on the matter made me feel I should try. I think other people feel the same and should be cautious about keeping things short and simple (like simply saying you're praying for them).

ETA: Just want to add that if people can't refrain from writing harmful things concerning their beliefs or family then they absolutely should not considering writing anything to the victims. Doing so is not helpful at all and will only cause them far more pain.

If people like that want to help, then I recommend they focus on getting the show cancelled (if they feel that is the best option) or they should donate time/money to organizations that help survivors of sexual assault.

That is probably the best approach for anyone wanting to give words of encouragement. I like that idea. I very much hope they will get the help they need from their family and friends.

[Clementine]

Maybe it's the cynic in me. But I don't find the coincidence all that strange, because I believe pedophilia is a lot more rampant then most people think.

You are probably right and it is horrifying to think about. I found this very short article about Joseph Hutchens, former state trooper who worked as a Benton County bailiff when he was arrested in 2005 on child porn charges.

http://www.nwaonline.com/news/2012/jun/ ... cials-vote

[contessa perdono]

As I read all about the revelations about Smuggar's behavior, I notice that a lot of people are speculating about whether the media storm could result in the eldest daughters' breaking free of the cult.

Sadly, I don't think this is likely. I have a memory of some psychological research into religious cults. The research found that when something goes drastically wrong in a cult (e.g., the leader predicts Armageddon will happen in June; then June comes and no Armageddon, and all the cult members who sold all their stuff and moved into a hole in the ground have no prospects for self support), very often the cult members somehow become EVEN MORE devoted to the cult. Almost everyone rallies around and reiterates the cult's beliefs to an even greater extent than before.

Yup, you are correctly remembering that research. The cult members just convinced themselves that their faith/repentence/etc had been enough to prevent the end of the world. The underlying psychological principles are investment theory (the more you give up for something, the more likely you are to think positively of it) and cognitive dissonance (if actions are incongruent with beliefs, beliefs will change).

It's true that we don't know where the girls are in their recovery process. A lot of people do recover from trauma naturally, without needing clinical intervention. Unfortunately, from what we know about trauma recovery, it is likely that the girls had/continue to have a lot of the risk factors for trauma-related psychopathology.

[DarkAnts]

I keep coming back to the fact that Josh was not given the resources needed to overcome his perverted interest. He was just sighed up for a few months of hard labor and forced indoctrination. That is not help. If he had been put into a treatment center after the first incident, then I don't think things would have gotten so out of hand. Put him in a therapeutic foster home for a few months after graduating from the treatment center, and slowly intigrate him back into the family. Both Josh and his victims needed counseling before he should have been allowed back into the house full time.

I don't begrudge Josh for visiting strip clubs (if he did). It's a safer way for him to explore. Magazines would have been another safe outlet for curiosity. But I am afraid those would be more sinful than what he did in his community.

[MatthewDuggar]

It's a great sentiment in theory, but in practice, we don't know how triggering these comments will be for them.

We also need to keep in mind that these women have been dealing with this for 10 years. What may seem shocking and new to us is not the same for them.

Over all, we just don't know whether it will upset them to see their brother being called a disgusting monster or to see him being defended. Till they speak out, we just really don't know.

The last thing the victims are going to do is read any of the comments made to them from perfect strangers. You're not helping them, you're helping yourself feel better for not being able to do anything.

Like others have said, for all we know they could be well over the abuse or it could be a massive set back. We don't know what stage they are in. Also, this is nothing new to them other than now they know the entire world knows their personal business. If anything they are extremely embarrassed and ashamed that their parents exploited them to this point.

[sense and nonsense]

The last thing the victims are going to do is read any of the comments made to them from perfect strangers. You're not helping them, you're helping yourself feel better for not being able to do anything.

Like others have said, for all we know they could be well over the abuse or it could be a massive set back. We don't know what stage they are in. Also, this is nothing new to them other than now they know the entire world knows their personal business. If anything they are extremely embarrassed and ashamed that their parents exploited them to this point.

Their Instagram comments are easily accessible to them, and some will be read at one point.

The rest of your post I agree with completely.

[Nowyn]

Who are they going to believe more, their parents or strangers? People who share their lifestyle and beliefs, or evil liberals (because face it, everyone who isn't ATI is probably a liberal to them).

I don't know. It depends on them. If there is enough of voices saying the same thing while not saying that they are liberals MIGHT convince them to try to talk to someone outside. I think they won't stop believing their parents until they get years of therapy.

I have been posting the same thing. I think Josh was sexually abused and I also think he abused more than 5 people.

Please don't go there. Of course, there is that possibility, and it has crossed my mind but a.) we should never but that label on anyone out of speculation b.) connecting being abused to being abuser is bad for survivors.

I'm worried about Josh's children. I will tell you why. When i was around 5 my father molested me. I only remember this one episode. He came into my bed and did this. I was staying at my grandma's and so was he for some reason. My parents divorced when i was 3, so i would go visit him and my paternal grandparents on weekends. I am now 43. Anyway, i found out recently that he also molested his younger sister, my aunt, when he was in his early to mid and she was a pre teen.

I think a lot of the time the abuse continues for generations. Also, my father and Josh are like twins. They are both narcisstic, smug, cold, etc... My dad was the oldest child too. And from what my aunt tells me and what i witnessed was how boys were treated differently in that family, my aunt the only girl. The boys were rarely punished and treated like princes. Once my dad painted a swastika on the neighbors driveway, they were from Germany, and all he got was a "stern talking to" no punishment according to my aunt. So yes, i fear for his children. Something needs to be done .What can CPS do?? God this is horrible!

That's a very complex thing for me. While I don't think we have enough of information to make conclusions about his probability to reoffend, I also feel that his kids need to be protected. But this type of speculation can so easily do more harm than good.

I am very interested in the connection between the Duggar family and the police officer that got 56 years in jail for child pornography. It's a strange coincidence. I think there should be a separate thread for researching more about it.

Pedophile rings have more or less been in the tinfoil hat/conspiracy theory land, but after the pedophile rings and grooming gangs that have been exposed in the UK, and that apparently have been going on for decades, I am sure something similar could happen in the US too.

Scary thought. This needs to be looked at, but I don't think any of has enough of resources to do so. Is there any channels in USA to get this looked at?

[FundieFarmer]

Exactly. The people screaming for his head on a platter on social media bother me as much as people defending him. I don't want to see him harmed - I want to see him be held responsible (even if it's only not being on the show anymore), fully acknowledge the pain the victims experienced, and get real counseling.

Yes. I find what he did abhorrent, but I also find threatening him just as unhelpful as his statement!

We all feel very strongly about this in one way or another but at this point, tempered answers and messages of support for the victims & family are the best I feel we should/can do. And of course, hang up the speculation.

And from an FJ standpoint, I think several of our fundies are doing excellent jobs of exposing their own hypocrisy and corruption just by virtue of their statements about this, for which I am very thankful. Input aside about the Duggars, I am admittedly thankful that cracks are showing for the whole community (though of course I wish it hadn't had to come out this way).

[LittleOleMe]

And let's not forget that another set of parents are completely to blame for this as well. The fifth victim came forward; that means her parents knew about the abuse and didn't do anything about it. They didn't speak out or anything. The girl and/or her parents could easily have done an interview with their faces blacked out and their voices changed saying that this happened and there's a police report/file to look up. That girl's parents should have stood up for her just as much as JB and J'chelle should have stood up for their daughters. So while Josh and JB and J'chelle are all to blame for this debacle, so are those parents, whoever they are.

I'm also bothered by the fact that it's been reported that a minor victim wanted the records expunged bc she was STILL a minor. That tells us it was Joy and outs her as a victim. That never should have been reported. Of course the police reports/files should have been redacted a whole lot more than they were. Sigh.

[halcionne]

Can anyone link the judge's order to have the record expunged? I saw it somewhere--the actual order, not a synopsis--and now I can't find it again. The verbiage was...something worth analyzing, imo, at some point; though maybe not right now.

[Rachel333]

Regarding "rods", that's the word used in the Bible so it's pretty normal for conservative Christians to talk about spanking with a rod.

My parents spanked us with rods, in their case thin wooden dowel rods kind of like these which never left any marks. I'm not saying it was okay, because now I think spanking at all is wrong, but I guess because of my own experience it doesn't seem like such a big deal to me compared to any other kind of spanking. It was definitely not on the same level as the Pearls' plumbing line anyway.

(Off-topic, but a few days ago my mom shocked me by saying she wished she had never spanked any of us. My parents always defended spanking because that's what the Bible prescribes, but my mom was reading a book about horse training that explained why violence is never okay and it made her realize that it isn't okay with children either.)

[MisUndrstd]

Well, I've noticed on Facebook that the Duggar scandal is not trending, that is the first time in the last couple of days I haven't seen it. I truly hope the worst of the fire storm is over, especially for the girls' sake.