Josh Duggar Admits to Molestation Rumors - Part 4

[MisUndrstd]

I understand the outrage about this, I truly do. I get why we blame Michelle and JB, I get that. But I wonder if the public out cry would be different if it were the Kardashian sisters who were touched inappropiately by a male relative? Would the out cry be.. the mother had the girls dressing immodestly vs. modestly. their parents encouraged their sexuality vs. hid their sexuality. Are we putting too much emphasis on how the kids were raised, this obviously happens in a lot of homes and it happens to kids from all backgrounds. What is the real reason behind why these things happen?

[Honeysuckle]

Dont you wish they knew how many people out there support them and want them outta there?

We do not know where they are in their healing. They may be at a place where they want to take the support and make a break for it. They may be in a place of extreme anger. They may be at a place where they just want to hide in the safe spaces they have carved out for themselves in the past decade. They may wish that people would leave them alone because it was a long time ago and they think it's a done deal. They may be grieving, again, for the loss of their "happy family" facade. They may have all of these feelings and more within five minutes.

We don't know. We can't know. All we know is that they were outed by a poorly redacted report that allowed the victims to be identified, and that they did not choose to share their stories with us. Their right to privacy trumps our right to intrude in their lives with well-meaning platitudes.

[HermioneSparrow]

The fact that he did it to one, who didn't like it, didn't want it, cried about it, and he knew it was wrong. He was told, it appears he was caught/confessed whatever. And then he kept doing it! To 4 other people! He KNEW it was wrong and kept hurting his own sisters. I find it very disturbing.

VERY disturbing! I'm actually scared this will trigger something and he'll do a horrible thing to himself or someone else. Let's hope that doesn't happen. That guy need serious help.

[twinmama]

Yes they need to be out of the spotlight... But considering the fact that their parents raised them to view the female as ALWAYS being responsible for sexual assault there need to be people who reach out to tell them differently.

I do understand your points.... and normally I would agree completely. But considering the number of people saying this was blown out of proportion on social media, I just really think people should be trying to tell them otherwise.

(For the record, I tried very hard to avoid using any terms that might be graphic or harmful. I did only mention the eldest girls and the husbands, which may have been a bad choice... but I felt strongly that they should know people support them).

The people who should be telling them otherwise are not a bunch of strangers on the internet. It's their friends and family. All that hearing it from strangers on the internet is going to do is reiterate that everyone knows now and it's news. Hearing it from people they love is what they need and hopefully that will happen.

[Analytica49]

As I read all about the revelations about Smuggar's behavior, I notice that a lot of people are speculating about whether the media storm could result in the eldest daughters' breaking free of the cult.

Sadly, I don't think this is likely. I have a memory of some psychological research into religious cults. The research found that when something goes drastically wrong in a cult (e.g., the leader predicts Armageddon will happen in June; then June comes and no Armageddon, and all the cult members who sold all their stuff and moved into a hole in the ground have no prospects for self support), very often the cult members somehow become EVEN MORE devoted to the cult. Almost everyone rallies around and reiterates the cult's beliefs to an even greater extent than before.

I fear this will happen in Duggarland, and we may already be seeing it. In this case, everyone in Duggarland sees themselves as a victim of the rapacious librul media, who are picking on sainted son Joshie whom God has forgiven.

I'm inclined to think this revelation will not help the oldest daughters, and if anything, it might even make their situation worse, especially for the daughters who are still in Jim-Idiot and Clown Car's house.

I hope I'm wrong. But I may not be.

[SassyPants]

Exactly this.

When my son was sick and going through treatment, and he looked visibly ill, strangers would often approach us at random and say things like, "I know what you're going through, because child X died from this." Or, "I know what it's like to have a child die."

All I could think was two things: 1) You don't know my kid's prognosis. Who said anything about him dying? And 2) Thanks for bringing this up, we've been living this situation for every minute of our lives since diagnosis, and we managed to engage in a family activity where nobody thought about it for a few minutes. Thanks for feeling the need to mention it. :roll:

When I told this story in front of a group of friends and acquaintances, I received a lecture (from an acquaintance) about how I should be more grateful that people were willing to speak to me at all, and how dare I feel that way?

Publically, I did thank people for their concern, even if I was seething inside, but my point in how it relates to the Duggar women in this story is that people don't often think before they speak, even when they think they are being helpful. And what's worse, said people often feel they are entitled to make such remarks, and that you are somehow the bad guy for asking for a bit of consideration. It's bad enough that the ones who were molested are having to hear and read about this situation everywhere they look right now, they don't need random strangers approaching them and making comments to that effect, comments that could be triggering.

For what it's worth, I hope all those young women are in seclusion for the moment so that they aren't being or feeling harassed, even by well-intentioned fans.

I had a co-worker whose daughter and my daughter attended the same private HS, so a bit of a smaller school community. Her daughter died in an accident while away at college. She was an only child. I sent a card and approached my co-worker privately at work and it did not go well for either of us. I guess wrong place, wrong time. I felt I needed to acknowledge the situation but now, I just don't know that beyond a card, I would ever do that again-

[VelociRapture]

VERY disturbing! I'm actually scared this will trigger something and he'll do a horrible thing to himself or someone else. Let's hope that doesn't happen. That guy need serious help.

Exactly. The people screaming for his head on a platter on social media bother me as much as people defending him. I don't want to see him harmed - I want to see him be held responsible (even if it's only not being on the show anymore), fully acknowledge the pain the victims experienced, and get real counseling.

[halcionne]

Yes, thank you, Fascinated. The bolded is correct and I agree with your entire post.

Speaking for myself I haven't commented much, partly that I can't keep up with the sheer number of "wildly speculative" and "jumping to totally unfounded and quite gross conclusions" posts that are pissing me off...

(I took this quote from Nowyn's reply and I'm guessing by the context there is more that I haven't seen yet; I'm currently working this thread from both ends)

I haven't commented much because I'm speechless and horrified and busy reading. I'm feeling a little hypocritical, because I have my own speculations, but I find reading others' upsetting. I haven't shared mine because I think it's distasteful, and I'm busy reading. Thank you for pointing out that so many of the posts on here have turned speculative and that regular posters aren't commenting much. Perhaps I can skip ahead on some of my reading; I'm still on part 3. I tried looking at the mega merge what happens next thread and I can't do it. Way too much speculation for me. Oh yeah fakejoshduggar is back, making tasteless jokes. I thought I missed him, but now I wish he would go away, too.

[twinmama]

I would agree with this if they lived in typical community. But them being so sheltered I feel there are some things they need to hear. We don't know what they have been told. But I think it's safe to assume their parents have toed the party line with this. Those girls know that it's out and in this situation, knowing people are mostly sympathetic towards them is only beneficial. IIC about my assumption of them being treated like they are responsible for what happened, they need to hear as many people respectfully saying "it's not your fault" as possible.

Who are they going to believe more, their parents or strangers? People who share their lifestyle and beliefs, or evil liberals (because face it, everyone who isn't ATI is probably a liberal to them).

[AB45377]

The name of this site is freejinger.org. WIth Jessa and Jill out of the house don't you think Jinger has heard out this site?

[Rescinded and Mended]

I think it's good that you wanted to reach out, SassyPants. there was some relationship involved by the sound of it, since the girls went to the same school together, and you wanted to be kind.

I never really minded when parents of the other kids at school wanted to know how my son was...I know they cared about how he was doing, and thankfully no one ever mentioned the "dying" part.

It's hard to put into words without sounding ungrateful for the concern of others (which, again, was why I was always careful to say thank you to them, because it was coming from a place of concern), it's just that so many people, always strangers, made the assumption that he was going to die, because he reminded them of others who had. They didn't know where he was with his healing, and almost never thought to ask. It was often the "I know someone who died of this, but hang in there!" comments that were so hard to take.

[twinmama]

I cannot for the life of me fathom why apologists fail to see that once is a mistake, curiosity, whatever. Repeating the offense, after being counseled is a crime. not to mention, it was not consensual exploration, and there was an age difference,and relative physical/sexual maturity of offender and victim was not the same. This is not 'kids being kids.'

Oh yeah, I'll give a lot of passes on first offenses because there really seems to be no limit to how stupid or naive some people can be. Once you have been told you did something terrible, if you do it again knowing for sure that it's wrong, no more passes! You're even worse because you specifically KNOW it's wrong.

Also, I'm not excusing groping breasts over clothes, but to me that is one level of abuse and he took it to another even worse level when he pulled up the dress, down the pants and groped the genitals. There is no getting around that being wrong, unwanted and not accidental or exploratory.

[Yoshimi]

I think the announcement was Derick going to Nepal now for Disaster relief. He probably just left recently(after the Texas wedding before the scandal) It's gotta be tough for both him and Jill if they are seperated and this is going on. If he is there then I am relieved she didn't go along with him and bring Izzy. I feel disaster zones are no place for a newborn to be. Even if they are poorly strapped to their mom

I have a hard time believing that Derick go off to Nepal without Jill and Izzy. Even if this all happened before the scandal broke. Nope, not happening. Derick will never be that inconsiderate of his wife, who's going through a tough recovery - both physically and mentally, and abandon his two month old. Not to mention he himself just underwent a massive jaw surgery recently. There are other ways to help out the disaster relief from home. Plus in the previews Derick said "WE" (him and Jill) have special news to share. Would he phrase it like that if their announcement didn't involve both of them? Going to Nepal alone is only "special" for Derick.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if Derick AND Jill go to Nepal to help out eventually. And that's what their announcement in the previews was about. I just don't think they'll be leaving immediately. Especially if they're looking to do long-term mission work (2+ years like Derick's first stint). I imagine it'll take more than a few months for them to plan and get things in order before they leave.

[VelociRapture]

The people who should be telling them otherwise are not a bunch of strangers on the internet. It's their friends and family. All that hearing it from strangers on the internet is going to do is reiterate that everyone knows now and it's news. Hearing it from people they love is what they need and hopefully that will happen.

I absolutely understand. I directed my messages to Derick's mother and Ben's mother. Hopefully they can pass along the basics of the message - which consisted of there are many people praying for you guys. I figured it was better to send it to them than direct to the girls (I did post to Jessa and Jill's Instagram accounts, but doubt they'll ever see the comment because of all the other comments coming in). I truly hope that they are getting support from loved ones right now (which I also mentioned).

Under any other circumstances, I wouldn't have considered reaching out. The fact that their entire family and the majority of people they know subscribe to the same disgusting views on the matter made me feel I should try. I think other people feel the same and should be cautious about keeping things short and simple (like simply saying you're praying for them).

ETA: Just want to add that if people can't refrain from writing harmful things concerning their beliefs or family then they absolutely should not considering writing anything to the victims. Doing so is not helpful at all and will only cause them far more pain.

If people like that want to help, then I recommend they focus on getting the show cancelled (if they feel that is the best option) or they should donate time/money to organizations that help survivors of sexual assault.

[vienna]

Spanking with implements isn't a big deal here- in the United States or in the South where the Duggars (and I) live. My parents didn't spank me, but I remember having a friend next door whose mother had a paddle with the girl's name engraved on it. I thought it was creepy. Everyone else thought it was cute.

Thanks so much to the both of you for the insight. I am from europe. I used to live with a very conservative religious family when I have been to Texas as an exchange student. I read fj and other pages on quiverfull for years now and know that within ATI blanked training and physical abuse is an issue. But I thought that a lot of people watching 19 Kids and counting are also "normal" people not necessarily conservative christains. People beeing impressed how the Duggars deal with so many children and raise them to be such nice kids. As far as the conservative christians are concerned the info about the rod wouldn´t change a thing. But the fans of 19kac are in my opinion not just people sharing the duggars cult. But if spanking with a rod is in general not considered to be such a big deal, my hopes seem to be wrong.

[VelociRapture]

(I took this quote from Nowyn's reply and I'm guessing by the context there is more that I haven't seen yet; I'm currently working this thread from both ends)

I haven't commented much because I'm speechless and horrified and busy reading. I'm feeling a little hypocritical, because I have my own speculations, but I find reading others' upsetting. I haven't shared mine because I think it's distasteful, and I'm busy reading. Thank you for pointing out that so many of the posts on here have turned speculative and that regular posters aren't commenting much. Perhaps I can skip ahead on some of my reading; I'm still on part 3. I tried looking at the mega merge what happens next thread and I can't do it. Way too much speculation for me. Oh yeah fakejoshduggar is back, making tasteless jokes. I thought I missed him, but now I wish he would go away, too.

We're all guilty of speculating. I have my thoughts about this incident - I regret that I shared a few of them early on out of shock that this was true. Going forward I intend not to do that so much because it honestly doesn't help matters.

[weezie]

Let's put ourselves in the girls' shoes for a minute. Forgive my armchair psychology. When this happened, they were young. The older girls hopefully knew that their brother's actions were wrong, but they also were heavily dependent upon their parents as their spiritual guides. I gather that from birth, they are taught that God, above all, is who we are accountable to. So, if at this young age, they are told that Josh sought forgiveness and is truly sorry, they will likely accept it. Then more happens. And more, but parents impress upon them that Jesus forgives. It dies down, and they start in with the TLC show. They become exposed to the outside world. I feel that the children are all fairly intelligent, and when they begin seeing differences between Fundie World and the rest of the world, the parents, of course, paint a bleak and sinful picture of life outside TTH. The real world leaks through more and more. And that sets their heads spinning. Their trust in their parents may be wavering. And I think that is the key. They have been sheltered and now they have to figure out what is what, whom they can and should trust. On top of that, they are living their lives under scrutiny, thanks to their parents. The outpouring of support for them, while certainly well-intended, is offered from millions of people who are complete strangers. Everyone knows about their most intimate secret, that they are no longer pure. Imagine the shame!

I think that the best that we can hope for is that there is someone in their lives that they can trust, someone that will get them the help that they need. It may be a long time before that kind of trust is gained again. As far as 'doing something," they will seek help when they feel trust. If you feel you want to do something, volunteer at a local shelter or become active politically to change laws to protect victims as best as we can.

Sorry for the rambling. Think that we all want them to break free and heal. From their perspective, it may look like we are trying to rip them from the only life they have ever known. A tough choice, to say the least.

[Nowyn]

Spanking with implements isn't a big deal here- in the United States or in the South where the Duggars (and I) live. My parents didn't spank me, but I remember having a friend next door whose mother had a paddle with the girl's name engraved on it. I thought it was creepy. Everyone else thought it was cute.

I think this has to be a cultural thing. In here (Finland) majority believes all physical discipline is wrong. Almost everyone thinks that physical discipline administered by an object is criminal.

Yes they need to be out of the spotlight... But considering the fact that their parents raised them to view the female as ALWAYS being responsible for sexual assault there need to be people who reach out to tell them differently.

I do understand your points.... and normally I would agree completely. But considering the number of people saying this was blown out of proportion on social media, I just really think people should be trying to tell them otherwise.

(For the record, I tried very hard to avoid using any terms that might be graphic or harmful. I did only mention the eldest girls and the husbands, which may have been a bad choice... but I felt strongly that they should know people support them).

I agree with VelociRapture. They need to hear some things. But this also isn't time to try to get them leave. I think this is the point of unconditional support. IMO there is also a timeline for this. It's true that they have been dealing with this for over a decade, but triggering has already happened. IMO as long as letters are delivered within next week and they are respectful of their culture and unconditionally supportive it's ok. There will also be those letters that aren't those things, and if they aren't in complete seclusion they need that counterbalance.

[Jilltoo]

I agree that strangers should not be emailing the girls. This is something they went through over a decade ago. They may have healed. They don't need strangers telling them how they should feel. It has to be embarrassing. The media needs to keep them out of it! So many on here want to scream at the top of their lungs that is was his sisters. No, that should have been sealed! He was also a juvenile and would not have gone to prison. He would have been sent to a juvenile treatment center for sexual offenders. Then lots of follow ups I'm sure.

I also see people on here questioning Jana going on the RV trip with them, the girls traveling to FL for wedding prep with him alone. No, they were not alone. TLC was a chaperone in both these cases. That may have been a comfort to all.

[church_of_dog]

So here's a theoretical:

Let's say that a 14-year-old boy molests several girls, including his sisters and a houseguest.

Let's say that the boy is certainly old enough to know right from wrong in this regard, but has also been raised with the very warped ideas about sex, sexuality, patriarchy and power that we generally discuss here.

Let's say that the boy's parents make no useful attempt to prevent him from reoffending, nor to get him or his victims actual therapy.

Let's say that we know from the rest of society that pedophilia (which we do NOT know is the condition of this boy or not) is EXTREMELY hard to self-control, to the point that some offenders choose to be castrated in an attempt to get their behavior under their own control. In a world where self-control seems to be harder and harder to come by for just mundane "shoulds" like sleep, diet and exercise, compulsions anywhere on the sexual spectrum seem to be off the charts in terms of how difficult to self-control they are.

So basically I'm saying that this boy, while knowing right from wrong, may not have had a hope in hades of controlling himself, all things considered.

And when his parents take XYZ ineffective action and then tell him he's now fine and all is right with the world and Jesus, that certainly is not going to increase his ability to solve this problem.

Now let's say that this boy is now an adult who, while still in the cultish world he grew up in, now also has access to the rest of society. Including the ability to understand the concepts I just wrote above, and including the ability to understand the concept of actual therapy to control behavior and thoughts, and therapy to process past traumas, and therapy to understand how to be truly apologetic and repentant toward those he hurt both directly and indirectly.

So, the question is -- given all the above, what ideally should the man do now? I think first on the list is "ensure the protection of those around him" by being brutally honest about his condition, followed quickly by "get real therapy" and "issue authentic apologies." That would be a start.

Does anyone wonder (or care?) whether Josh is thinking along these lines?

NB: I'm sure this post will strike some as defending him, but it is not. I'm simply pretending that deep inside him is a speck that wants to do the right thing now, regardless of the past.

[DaysAgo]

I am sorry if this has already been addressed, but has anyone considered that Josh may have been molested as a child? He was a young offender (not saying this is OK or that it should get him off it is just a fact he was young) and many if not all young offenders do so because it has happened to them as well. My question is, if he was molested, then who is/are the offender(s)?

I have been posting the same thing. I think Josh was sexually abused and I also think he abused more than 5 people.

[lascuba]

It's a great sentiment in theory, but in practice, we don't know how triggering these comments will be for them.

We also need to keep in mind that these women have been dealing with this for 10 years. What may seem shocking and new to us is not the same for them.

Over all, we just don't know whether it will upset them to see their brother being called a disgusting monster or to see him being defended. Till they speak out, we just really don't know.

Exactly. And even taking out the issue of potentially triggering them--it's a bit arrogant to think that an internet stranger can be a source of comfort for these girls. We don't know them, they don't know us. They're celebrities who get contacted by thousands of people with all sorts of intentions. I know and believe that the intentions here are good, but people need to get a sense of perspective about their influence and ability to help. Not many of us would appreciate it if a stranger on the bus approached us to offer comfort/advice because they overheard us having an upsetting conversation or something. Why would it be any different for the Duggar girls for people from the internet that they don't interact with except maybe on a celebrity/fan level?

[Arrowoftruth]

I have a hard time believing that Derick go off to Nepal without Jill and Izzy. Even if this all happened before the scandal broke. Nope, not happening. Derick will never be that inconsiderate of his wife, who's going through a tough recovery - both physically and mentally, and abandon his two month old. Not to mention he himself just underwent a massive jaw surgery recently. There are other ways to help out the disaster relief from home. Plus in the previews Derick said "WE" (him and Jill) have special news to share. Would he phrase it like that if their announcement didn't involve both of them? Going to Nepal alone is only "special" for Derick.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if Derick AND Jill go to Nepal to help out eventually. And that's what their announcement in the previews was about. I just don't think they'll be leaving immediately. Especially if they're looking to do long-term mission work (2+ years like Derick's first stint). I imagine it'll take more than a few months for them to plan and get things in order before they leave.

It's probably just me that could see him leaving then. I don't think he would've been gone long. Just like 2 weeks. I think Jill is mostly recovered now if she was well enough to travel in a small airplane with an infant to Texas. Do we know what type of surgery Derick had? I don't think it was massive jaw surgery. His face would still be wrapped up then. If he got something like a palate expander to fix a crossbite then it would be just uncomfortable as to painful at this point.(It's been two weeks right?) He might not think leaving them as abandoning since he knows he'll be back and it's his Christian duty to help others in need. :) But since you said he said we I guess my idea has a low chance of being possible. Unless he felt like including Jill so it was we. Like how he said we have been laboring :lol:

ETA:He might not be worried about leaving her since she has a crap ton of family. I still say if he left it was before the scandal.

[weezie]

So, the question is -- given all the above, what ideally should the man do now? I think first on the list is "ensure the protection of those around him" by being brutally honest about his condition, followed quickly by "get real therapy" and "issue authentic apologies." That would be a start.

Sigh. Yes it would be a great start. Alas, in my opinion, he feels that it has been settled, years ago. He prayed and was forgiven. Our opinion, our forgiveness is not an issue. It is not wanted or needed.

[SassyPants]

Let's put ourselves in the girls' shoes for a minute. Forgive my armchair psychology. When this happened, they were young. The older girls hopefully knew that their brother's actions were wrong, but they also were heavily dependent upon their parents as their spiritual guides. I gather that from birth, they are taught that God, above all, is who we are accountable to. So, if at this young age, they are told that Josh sought forgiveness and is truly sorry, they will likely accept it. Then more happens. And more, but parents impress upon them that Jesus forgives. It dies down, and they start in with the TLC show. They become exposed to the outside world. I feel that the children are all fairly intelligent, and when they begin seeing differences between Fundie World and the rest of the world, the parents, of course, paint a bleak and sinful picture of life outside TTH. The real world leaks through more and more. And that sets their heads spinning. Their trust in their parents may be wavering. And I think that is the key. They have been sheltered and now they have to figure out what is what, whom they can and should trust. On top of that, they are living their lives under scrutiny, thanks to their parents. The outpouring of support for them, while certainly well-intended, is offered from millions of people who are complete strangers. Everyone knows about their most intimate secret,that they are no longer pure. Imagine the shame!

I think that the best that we can hope for is that there is someone in their lives that they can trust, someone that will get them the help that they need. It may be a long time before that kind of trust is gained again. As far as 'doing something," they will seek help when they feel trust. If you feel you want to do something, volunteer at a local shelter or become active politically to change laws to protect victims as best as we can.

Sorry for the rambling. Think that we all want them to break free and heal. From their perspective, it may look like we are trying to rip them from the only life they have ever known. A tough choice, to say the least.

So I wonder how the parents have dovetailed the purity and modesty ideals of Gothardism [what an effing joke, based on what we know about Gothard men] with what has happened to their daughters at the hands of their son? Think about Jinger's speech at Jessa's wedding/rehearsal dinner...how did JB and M convince their daughters that they are still whole per Gothardism?

JB and M should have their parental rights terminated.