Faith Pennington "Help Me Prove It" updates

[Marian the Librarian]

Now that you've mentioned that, it sheds new light on why Faith's elder sister (forgot her name) was so vicious on Facebook. The work Faith used to do fell on somebody's shoulders--somebody female, who could do it competently--but those shoulders sure as hell weren't going to be Lisa's.

And somewhere in her posts against Faith, that same sister claimed she was thinking about applying for jobs (as a way of making her parents seem better--and Faith worse--than they were). At the time, I knew that claim was bogus, but it's sad now that we know how trapped she actually is--if she found and took a job outside the home, she'd be kicked out, and treated just as Faith has been by parents who believe they can do no wrong.

What a mess.

I got curious about the siblings, so I've just read through all the comments on Faith's public "Help Me Prove It" FB page (yes, I *know* how to have a good time on a day off... ;) ) There are replies buried under replies buried under more replies, so caveat reader - its become quite a fascinating and lengthy rabbit hole.

Three of Faith's siblings have actually posted there - Patience, Jacob, and J Grace, who was by far the most prolific responder. The common denominator, not surprisingly, is that they're defending their parents' choices and lifestyle. I've compiled all their posts, but don't want to suck up the bandwidth here unless mods have no objection - anyone interested can PM me and I will happily share that way.

I hasten to add, I'm not in any way faulting the siblings who posted. They've grown up in the toxic, control-freakish mix of Lisa's narcissism and James' ebil-gummint-separatism, steeped in the Kool-Aid of essential oils and shabby chic. I'd rescue every single one of them if it were possible.

[Palimpsest]

I got curious about the siblings, so I've just read through all the comments on Faith's public "Help Me Prove It" FB page (yes, I *know* how to have a good time on a day off... ;) ) There are replies buried under replies buried under more replies, so caveat reader - its become quite a fascinating and lengthy rabbit hole.

Three of Faith's siblings have actually posted there - Patience, Jacob, and J Grace, who was by far the most prolific responder. The common denominator, not surprisingly, is that they're defending their parents' choices and lifestyle. I've compiled all their posts, but don't want to suck up the bandwidth here unless mods have no objection - anyone interested can PM me and I will happily share that way.

I hasten to add, I'm not in any way faulting the siblings who posted. They've grown up in the toxic, control-freakish mix of Lisa's narcissism and James' ebil-gummint-separatism, steeped in the Kool-Aid of essential oils and shabby chic. I'd rescue every single one of them if it were possible.

Sending PM.

Also, many thanks MtL for the link to the hearings on TX HB 2794. I always get a kick out of seeing good legislators doing their jobs properly.

So the bill passed the House and is now in the Senate? It seems to be on a pretty fast track. Crossing my fingers that it passes the Senate quickly too and we see the Gov. sign off on it soon.

[Seven Severn]

Is it maybe disingenuous that Alecia, her grandmother, and aunt all claim that they don't know why her parents didn't file for birth certificates for their children? If FJers have been able to deduce that James is an anti-government wack-a-doo then how come they don't know? Are they trying not to embarrass the parents or do they just not want to open that can of worms?

[hoipolloi]

Is it maybe disingenuous that Alecia, her grandmother, and aunt all claim that they don't know why her parents didn't file for birth certificates for their children? If FJers have been able to deduce that James is an anti-government wack-a-doo then how come they don't know? Are they trying not to embarrass the parents or do they just not want to open that can of worms?

Maybe not disingenuous so much as they don't want to go there publically.

Can't believe either that this is the first they've known about James & Lisa's cultish ways but I can see that they wouldn't want to go into all of that publicly.

Whatever the case, I'm glad for Faith's sake that they are willing to do so.

[MamaJunebug]

Palimpsest,

Talk about taking one for the team! Thank you! My PM is on its way.

[Howl]

Maybe not disingenuous so much as they don't want to go there publicly.

There is so much at stake here for them, because they all, I'm sure, would like to re-establish a relationship with the Pennington kids remaining at home and I'm sure Lisa's mother finds it difficult being estranged from her daughter.

My sense is that James Pennington relishes a good fight and does not forgive easily, if at all and he's the one who calls the shots in that household -- and banished the grandparents.

The grandparents strike me as thoughtful decent people who would not consider making a difficult situation worse by public criticism of their daughter and son-in-law and risk alienating them forever.

[16strong]

Is it maybe disingenuous that Alecia, her grandmother, and aunt all claim that they don't know why her parents didn't file for birth certificates for their children? If FJers have been able to deduce that James is an anti-government wack-a-doo then how come they don't know? Are they trying not to embarrass the parents or do they just not want to open that can of worms?

I have no doubt that they were aware of James' beliefs. In fact, they probably had to ignore his beliefs to have any type of relationship with him. I have a family member that is very militant anti big pharma/western medicine. You have to ignore that aspect of that person, and look at the good. All of my family members have super expert topic-changing abilities when this family member goes on rants. At home, it's likely that James views anti-government policies like Lisa views her oils. It's a non-stop conversation, and everyone rolls their eyes when it comes up (yet again) at the dinner table.

James ikely comes across as highly sanctimonious in person, and so they probably thought he'd never go as far as he did. At this point, they are probably very embarrassed that they did not put two and two together, and are trying to sweep it under the rug. It's understandable, and it doesn't make them guilty. I have nothing but sympathy and well wishes for them.

[Palimpsest]

Palimpsest,

Talk about taking one for the team! Thank you! My PM is on its way.

Oh no. Marian the Librarian took one for the team, not me. I've forwarded your PM to her already. :)

BTW, the comments are well worth reading, in a very depressing way. I want to rescue all the Pennington kids/young adults too.

[hoipolloi]

Thank you, Marian!

Why do I get the feeling that James and/or Lisa dictated if not wrote a significant number of the siblings' FB posts? :shakehead2:

[Palimpsest]

Thank you, Marian!

Why do I get the feeling that James and/or Lisa dictated if not wrote a significant number of the siblings' FB posts? :shakehead2:

What scares me is the thought that the siblings' posts were from their fully indoctrinated hearts and not dictated by James and/or Lisa.

Alecia broke free. Not everyone has that resilience. And I'm not blaming those who don't have that resilience. This sort of programming is very hard to overcome.

[Palimpsest]

There is so much at stake here for them, because they all, I'm sure, would like to re-establish a relationship with the Pennington kids remaining at home and I'm sure Lisa's mother finds it difficult being estranged from her daughter.

My sense is that James Pennington relishes a good fight and does not forgive easily, if at all and he's the one who calls the shots in that household -- and banished the grandparents.

The grandparents strike me as thoughtful decent people who would not consider making a difficult situation worse by public criticism of their daughter and son-in-law and risk alienating them forever.

Disingenuous, perhaps.

A few thoughts:

- Alecia still needs info from her parental units so cannot call them out publically.

- Alecia and the grandparents cannot claim to "know" the reasons of Lisa/James without qualifying language. Alecia cannot testify to her knowledge of the reasoning of her parental units when she was an infant, but merely to later statements they perhaps made about "religious reasons" later. Hearsay.

- Specific to the hearings - the legislators do not care about the reasons. There is limited time to give testimony and all the legislators care about is fact. Fact: my parents and/or the midwife did not apply for a birth certificate and SS#. Fact: the documentation I can scrape together now is insufficient within today's requirements. Fact: I'm asking you pass this Bill, which has the potential to help people in my situation and punish people for aiding and assisting in identity abuse.

[DaffyDill]

I got curious about the siblings, so I've just read through all the comments on Faith's public "Help Me Prove It" FB page (yes, I *know* how to have a good time on a day off... ;) ) There are replies buried under replies buried under more replies, so caveat reader - its become quite a fascinating and lengthy rabbit hole.

Three of Faith's siblings have actually posted there - Patience, Jacob, and J Grace, who was by far the most prolific responder. The common denominator, not surprisingly, is that they're defending their parents' choices and lifestyle. I've compiled all their posts, but don't want to suck up the bandwidth here unless mods have no objection - anyone interested can PM me and I will happily share that way.

I hasten to add, I'm not in any way faulting the siblings who posted. They've grown up in the toxic, control-freakish mix of Lisa's narcissism and James' ebil-gummint-separatism, steeped in the Kool-Aid of essential oils and shabby chic. I'd rescue every single one of them if it were possible.

PM coming from me, too.

Thanks for taking this particular one for the team, Marian :D

[MamaJunebug]

Poo-yee shah!!!--as the old Cajun would say.

Marian's transcription is well worth the read, but have a can of Pepsi or other idolatrous beverage at hand.

Grace [sic] so methodically repeats her talking points:

"Our parents would have helped Alecia get her documentation "

"They helped us"

"SSNs aren't needed to get a job or a driver's license"

"Getting an SSN is a choice"

"My parents are very good, and sane"

"Alecia is at fault"

"Alecia is no scrappy heroine; why, *I* have been the rebellion one, and see how happily I live with my folks in grownup harmony".....

.....that a reader with no real dog in the fight closes up the document thinking, "Meh, yeah, the truth is probably somewhere in between...."

But after a good night's sleep, thinks clearly:

If Alecia is the passive gal her sister claims, her parents could easily dismiss her requests for documents until "when WE are darn good and ready."

And if Alecia is the plucky gal we imagine her to be, her parents could easily dismiss her requests for documents until "when WE are darn good and ready."

Which prompts a Q about the midwife at F's delivery. Is she still liable for her neglect in filing a BC, 18 years later? Do James & Lisa even have record of the midwife's name? Good gracious sakes alive, umpteen chirrun came after her, y'can't expect us to have saved ALL that piddly ole paperwork, or to remember details other than, "Baby and M O T H E R are doing fine," now, can you?!?!?

[VVV]

"Grace [sic]" :lol:

[Howl]

Here's the second paragraph in the Birth Registration Handbook from Texas Dept. of Vital Statistics:

A birth certificate is a permanent legal record of an individual’s birth. The birth certificate is an individual’s basic claim and proof of citizenship, identification and relationship to his or her parent(s). It serves as the primary document for individuals to enter school, play little league sports, obtain a social security number and account, a driver’s license, a marriage license, a passport, and to prove citizenship to be qualified to work in this country.

Little League? OK, THAT's got our attention. Moving right along:

The birth certificate must be filed by the attendant at birth. If the birth occurs in a licensed institution (hospital, birthing center), an administrator may file the certificate. If the birth occurs in a non-licensed institution (occurs outside of a licensed institution) and was attended by a registered, certified or documented health care provider (doctor, Midwife, EMT) the birth may be registered by the attendant or by the local registrar after he/she have presented their professional documentation. If the birth occurs in a non-licensed institution and a registered attendant is not present, the birth should be registered by the father or mother of the child or the owner/ householder of the premises where the birth occurred. Documentation is required from the parent(s) before a birth certificate may be filed.

Mama JB, currently the midwife or person attending the birth is legally required to record the birth. It would not surprise me at all if the Pennington's requested that the birth not be recorded; at the time of Alecia's birth, perhaps there was no penalty for refusing to record a birth.

Here is the current penalty:

It is also a Class C misdemeanor if a person fails, neglects, or refuses to fill out and file a birth certificate with TER [Texas Electronic Registration], the local registrar or deliver the certificate upon request to the person with the duty to file it.

Grace [sic] so methodically repeats her talking points:

"SSNs aren't needed to get a job or a driver's license"

"Getting an SSN is a choice"

While technically true, she's never applied for a job outside the family's fundy economy, so what does she know? She's just parroting her dad's talking points.

I've processed i-9 documents for grad students being employed as Teaching Assistants and Assistant Instructors at a major university and believe me, everyone HAD to have an SSN to get signed up and paid. Had someone shown up and said they didn't have an SSN for some esoteric reason, the response would be to look at the other students waiting in my office and yell, "Next!".

If Alecia's parents wanted her to have documentation, she'd have it now; actually, she would have had it in February with no issues. All of this is just James Pennington ***king with the system. James has recently graduated from a law school for fundamentalist Christians. I'm sure legal strategies to fight with the government over these types of public policy issues and laws are covered in great detail and really, is part of the focus of that program.

Because he has said the law proposed by Rep Farney is "draconian" I'll be interested to see if he challenges it in court, if it becomes law in this legislative session. However, I don't know if he can challenge it directly, because he is not licensed to practice in Texas, just California, as far as I know.

In addition, I'd be curious to know how withholding a birth certificate or other documentation of birth dovetails with voter laws and voter rights. Cuz in Texas now, you have to show a photo ID to vote and yup, a concealed hand gun license does the trick.

Anyway, we'll find out if Rep. Farney's bill passes into law in a few weeks. So very much hoping that it does!

[Grimalkin]

During that whole debacle I read and interacted on that FB page but must of missed parts. I am pm ing to. I remember that reading Grace's viscous posts appaled me and got my blood pressure to spike. She is terrifying because she was so hateful and lacked logic, but was so convinced she was right and so smug. She sounded like an idiot, and was so, so smug about it.

[ariel9]

So are you all messaging faith? I really do not want her to go back there. For crying out loud I would not even treat my dog like her parents treated her.

[VVV]

So are you all messaging faith? I really do not want her to go back there. For crying out loud I would not even treat my dog like her parents treated her.

I've had a few interactions with her on FB but it seems a little creepy to me for a bunch of internet strangers to overwhelm her inbox. Faith seems to have a good support system in her extended family and friends, and I would say there is approximately zero chance of her going back to the Penningtentiary based on her posts. She has a remarkably clear head on her shoulders.

[MamaJunebug]

I've had a few interactions with her on FB but it seems a little creepy to me for a bunch of internet strangers to overwhelm her inbox. Faith seems to have a good support system in her extended family and friends, and I would say there is approximately zero chance of her going back to the Penningtentiary based on her posts. She has a remarkably clear head on her shoulders.

Oo!! Oo!! Another post count title possibility:

"Escaped the Penningtentiary" ---?????

[DaffyDill]

So from what the Pennington childults said, their parents did not want to register their infants' births with the government "for religious reasons", although said parents are supposedly quite happy to assist their childults in getting a birth certificate and/or a SSN now...I doubt this last bit, as if it were true, Alecia would not have had to leave home. Unless she was being treated badly or unfairly in other ways which would not surprise me.

What those religious reasons are, they don't say, although Jacob did say this:

When my older sister and I were born, parents in Texas were thrown in prison for homeschooling their kids. So if my parents had a religious opposition to putting their kids in the public school, then exposure would absolutely become a concern.‬

So they didn't register the births of their children, or get them a SSN, because they wanted to homeschool them in accordance with their religious beliefs, and would not have been allowed to in Texas around 1990 or so? Does anyone know if that is true? Or are Jacob, Patience and Grace just parroting their parents words?

And a huge thanks to MarianTheLibrarian for compiling all the posts by the three Pennington siblings :worship:

[Mango]

The funny thing is that I grew up in Texas and I have a NUMBER of friends who were homeschooled during that time frame. It was definitely not a big deal.

[VVV]

So from what the Pennington childults said, their parents did not want to register their infants' births with the government "for religious reasons", although said parents are supposedly quite happy to assist their childults in getting a birth certificate and/or a SSN now...I doubt this last bit, as if it were true, Alecia would not have had to leave home. Unless she was being treated badly or unfairly in other ways which would not surprise me.

What those religious reasons are, they don't say, although Jacob did say this:

So they didn't register the births of their children, or get them a SSN, because they wanted to homeschool them in accordance with their religious beliefs, and would not have been allowed to in Texas around 1990 or so? Does anyone know if that is true? Or are Jacob, Patience and Grace just parroting their parents words?

And a huge thanks to MarianTheLibrarian for compiling all the posts by the three Pennington siblings :worship:

The bolded is such bullshit. I've lived in Texas since 1988 and there have always been homeschoolers. It should be more astonishing than it is that the Pennington parents would teach their children such a baldfaced lie.

[spud]

I found this link on a subreddit for children of narcissists.

15 Narcissistic Religious Abuse Tactics - http://pro.psychcentral.com/exhausted-w ... e-tactics/

Sems to fit Lisa perfectly.

[Delilah]

I have been reading Marian Librarian's wonderful collection of Pennington sibling posts and, like everyone here, I have a few questions.

1. Patience wrote that 2 older sibs (that must be Grace and Jacob) had no trouble getting driver's licenses. She and another sib (that must be Hope) are working on it and "are having no trouble getting the identification we need." So, if Patience and Hope are having no trouble getting the identification they need, have they received their licenses yet? It's been 3 months since she wrote this comment, so there has been enough time if they truly had no trouble getting their identification.

2. Grace wrote, "One possible document is a court order with your name and date of birth on it. I was able to get this by a legal name change." She also wrote, "I actually don't have any documentation she doesn't have." If Faith has the same documentation as Grace, then Faith would also have the court order with name and date of birth on it. Faith says she doesn't have that document, so is Grace wrong?

3. Jacob wrote that his older sister is getting a SSN now. Was she successful?

4. Why would Grace not have a birth certificate if she was born in a hospital? That doesn't make sense to me.

5. Grace acknowledged that the laws to get a DL may have changed since she got her license. She said she's not up-to-date on those laws, but wouldn't she know about it if 2 siblings living under the same roof (Patience and Hope I think) were going through the process? I would think such an important matter would be dinner table conversation - at least it was at my house when my kids were getting their driver's permits and licenses.

Somebody isn't telling the whole truth here.

One last thing - a guy named Ken posted on Faith's Help Me Prove It FB page that the Pennington siblings might have difficulty renewing their driver's licenses. He posted this link http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/renewal.htm (I didn't break it because it's government stuff)

which says Texas requires someone to verify SSN, identity, and citizenship to renew. Would the DMV accept the alternative documents? I don't know if these are new regulations or if they already cleared these hurdles. It's going to be a bit embarrassing for them if they have difficulty renewing after they spoke about how effective alternative documents are.

[16strong]

Because we all need some good news, Faith posted on her FB that HB 2794 passed the senate committee! Go Faith!!!! :mrgreen: