Are Lina and Love planning to move to Israel?

[Beeks]

Have they mentioned this? I'm curious why they would need to learn conversational Hebrew....who are they going to talk to in TX? Each other? I get wanting to be able to read the prayers, but to speak the language seems a bit odd to me.

Can messianic Jews get Israeli citizenship? Faustian? Anybody know?

[VVV]

Any Jewish person can apply for Israeli citizenship.

How to become Jewish:

(Not entirely work-safe)

[defrauding]

Can messianic Jews get Israeli citizenship? Faustian? Anybody know?

For the most part, no: the government rightly views "Messianic Judaism" as another religion.

However, Israel's Law of Return, which determines who can make aliyah and receive citizenship, isn't just for Jews: it's also for descendants and spouses of Jews:

The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

Currently, this means that Messianics with Jewish parents or grandparents are eligible to make aliyah -- not because the government recognizes them as Jews, but because the government recognizes them as relatives of Jews. At the same time, though, since Jews use matrilineal descent to determine who's Jewish, a Messianic with a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother[*] counts as "a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion" and therefore isn't eligible to make aliyah.

[*] Edited to fix my mistake. Thanks, FaustianSlip!

[FaustianSlip]

I think you mean maternal grandmother, right? And I never considered that. Huh.

Basically, unless Lina or Anthony have some kind of non-matrilineal grandparents that are Jewish, they won't qualify. Israel doesn't recognize Messianic adherants as Jews. There was actually a case a while back in which a monk applied to stay in Israel under the Law of Return, in order to continue serving in his order's monastery there, and was denied because he had voluntarily changed his religion. I think he was applying on the basis of a grandparent, but I can't swear to that.

I don't think either Lina or Tony have the ancestral claims to qualify, because if they did, I think we would have heard all about it long before now. I can't see Lina sitting on information that she's got a Jewish grandparent or something, and definitely not if she found out her mother's mother was Jewish, because that would make her Jewish, too, no need to convert.

[let-them-eat-cake]

I don't know about Lina specifically, but Messianics in general tend to think that the English language in general is "plagued by pagan words and phrases". That includes even basic things like believing you are sinning when saying "Saturday" or "January". I'm thinking they at least want to learn enough to "replace the bad words with the right words". Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if one day they just decided to speak only Hebrew (and yes, even if that meant only to each other). :/

[Patsy]

I don't think either Lina or Tony have the ancestral claims to qualify, because if they did, I think we would have heard all about it long before now.

Yeah, I see Lina as the type to declare her 1/64th Cherokee ancestry at any given opportunity.

[ChickeyMonkey]

Yeah, I see Lina as the type to declare her 1/64th Cherokee ancestry at any given opportunity.

And, of course, that Cherokee blood is "royal," dontcha know? Her great-to-the-nth-grandmother was a Cherokee princess. ;)

[TheJewAmongUs]

From reading her blog (ugh, did not enjoy that), it seems like every post is basically sticking her tongue out and saying, "Nah, nah, I'm doing it better than you."

I wonder if she talks like she blogs. Even the really observant Jews that I've met don't overload every sentence with vocabulary words like it's some kind of "faith test." Sheesh.

[QueenMother]

What is the link to Lina's blog?

I did have it saved, but may have deleted it in a moment of "blogs I live without ever reading again" cleaning.

Thank you.

[defrauding]

I think you mean maternal grandmother, right? And I never considered that. Huh.

Oops! Thanks for pointing that out. And, yeah, a small group of Messianics successfully petitioned the High Court for Israeli citizenship based on the Law of Return.

And QueenMother, it's http://asetapartlife.blogspot.com.

[Sola]

Unless they Jewish ancestry they cant make Aliyah even as faux Jews.

The courts only allowed those Messianic Jews with Jewish (as in real Jewish) grandfathers and/or fathers to be reconsidered.

[FaustianSlip]

And, of course, that Cherokee blood is "royal," dontcha know? Her great-to-the-nth-grandmother was a Cherokee princess. ;)

Jeez, glad I wasn't drinking my Coke while I read that. I would've spit it all over my laptop.

Honestly, given the amount of agita that has gone on amongst various sectors in Israel about Reform and Conservative converts qualifying to make Aliyah (and that comes with certain boxes you have to check), coupled with the increasing grip the ultra-Orthodox crowd have been getting on the government and the courts, I really can't imagine Messianic Jews that don't have the required Jewish ancestry being given the go-ahead any time soon.

I also agree that Lina (and, of course, Tony) both come across as really toolish and holier-than-thou. I don't think they'd bother me quite so much if their personalities weren't so ridiculous and obnoxious.

[Beeks]

From reading her blog (ugh, did not enjoy that), it seems like every post is basically sticking her tongue out and saying, "Nah, nah, I'm doing it better than you."

I wonder if she talks like she blogs. Even the really observant Jews that I've met don't overload every sentence with vocabulary words like it's some kind of "faith test." Sheesh.

I think this is because most observant folks are comfortable in their Judaism, whereas Lina (rightly) has something to prove. She knows she's not really Jewish, so no matter how often she claims to be "practicing Judaism" she has to throw in a Hebrew word every 2 seconds just to say "SEEEEEEE I really AM Jewish!" Actual orthodox folks don't generally have a need to do that.....

That said, I only have contact with modern orthodox for the most part. Some insanely observant, ultra-orthodox do have so much of their own language/customs/etc that I probably wouldn't even understand them if I tried to go hang out. ;-)

ETA: thanks for the clarification on who can obtain Israeli citizenship, folks. My brother moved to Israel about 5 years ago and even though he has every rightful claim it was still quite a process!

[masagoroll]

I wish they WOULD move away, so that my state of Texas would be free of them.

However, I wouldn't wish Lina and TT on Israel, haha.

Imagine them going around like "WE'RE JEWISH, TOO!!!!11!"

[IrishRose]

Why did Tony began being refered to as Taliban Tony...I missed that on the old board. Thanks!

[Soldevi]

Yuck, that Anthony has commented on one of her posts (May 3, 2011): " Some things that an evil husband demands SHOULD NOT be followed through with. When should his decisions be questioned? When his decisions lead to an infraction against the Torah, G-d's Law/Instruction, that is. HOWEVER, even in these cases, he must be HONORED and shown the truth clearly and RESPECTFULLY! Disrespect to a man from his own wife is equivalent to a death threat from a malicious neighbor." and "Submission is equivalent to obedience! At least form a Torah/Biblical perspective it is."

Anthony responded to the comments on the May 3 post:

Allow me to offer my perspective about your whole Taliban statement: IF you want your husband to begin acting as though he were a Taliban Soldier enforcing Sharia Law... then disrespect him, and so will your outcome be.

However, IF you want to live your life with a peaceful man that treasures you and Loves you with all of his might... then submit and follow him, and so will your outcome be.

[FaustianSlip]

As far as the Hebrew and Yiddishisms, I do think it's an insecurity thing. It seems like it's all about appearances with Lina. The more she goes on and on (and on) about how spiritual and in tune with G-d she is, the more superficial it seems to me. There are concepts and traditions in Judaism that are easier to describe using Hebrew or Yiddish (or have Hebrew or Yiddish names), either because using English terminology carries with it a Christian connotation that doesn't really match the Jewish view or because it's just easier to use Hebrew or Yiddish shorthand. That said, if I'm talking to someone who's not Jewish or wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about if I say I'm going to daven, for instance, I'll either use English or explain what I'm talking about. And endlessly peppering every single post with Yiddishisms is just unnecessary, especially if your blog is supposed to be geared toward teaching people new to observance and Judaism and so on.

Oh, and there's actually a dialect that is a weird melange of English, Yiddish and Hebrew: Yeshivish. There's a book called Dictionary of Frumspeak that talks about the grammatical patterns and gives definitions for a lot of slang and terminology. It's fascinating, but the thing is, with Lina, it's all an affectation. She hasn't grown up in a Yiddish-speaking environment in Brooklyn somewhere, and she's not living in some Yentl-esque shtetl. She's from Texas, for crying out loud. It just adds to the whole air of douchecanoe about the whole thing.

[Beeks]

As far as the Hebrew and Yiddishisms, I do think it's an insecurity thing. It seems like it's all about appearances with Lina. The more she goes on and on (and on) about how spiritual and in tune with G-d she is, the more superficial it seems to me. There are concepts and traditions in Judaism that are easier to describe using Hebrew or Yiddish (or have Hebrew or Yiddish names), either because using English terminology carries with it a Christian connotation that doesn't really match the Jewish view or because it's just easier to use Hebrew or Yiddish shorthand. That said, if I'm talking to someone who's not Jewish or wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about if I say I'm going to daven, for instance, I'll either use English or explain what I'm talking about. And endlessly peppering every single post with Yiddishisms is just unnecessary, especially if your blog is supposed to be geared toward teaching people new to observance and Judaism and so on.

Oh, and there's actually a dialect that is a weird melange of English, Yiddish and Hebrew: Yeshivish. There's a book called Dictionary of Frumspeak that talks about the grammatical patterns and gives definitions for a lot of slang and terminology. It's fascinating, but the thing is, with Lina, it's all an affectation. She hasn't grown up in a Yiddish-speaking environment in Brooklyn somewhere, and she's not living in some Yentl-esque shtetl. She's from Texas, for crying out loud. It just adds to the whole air of douchecanoe about the whole thing.

Yep, that's why even Aish.com doesn't use "G-d" and will translate any Hebrew or Yiddish 99% of the time. Aish is like Jewish evangelicals - except they just recruit other Jews. My point though is that they're as orthodox as they come but because they are trying to teach people who might not know the first thing about Judaism, they keep it readable. Lina is like a little kid with a shiny new toy who wants to show it off to everyone and anyone, not realizing how ridiculous she comes across to people who know even the first thing about what she's talking about.

Also, I have never heard of Yeshivish! So interesting. I love your posts Faustian, I feel like I always learn something new.

[FaustianSlip]

Heh, I do the "G-d" thing and don't even realize it half the time. I think it's out of habit from hanging out on boards where everyone else did it when I was starting out and not wanting to offend anyone. Which, really, it's not the tetragrammaton, so it doesn't matter much. Ah, well. If that's the most obnoxious thing I do (it isn't!), I'm doing okay. I think Chabad sites do write "G-d" for "God," and I never even noticed that Aish doesn't, it seems so ubiquitous on so many frum sites. Interesting. At least you can be totally unrelated to Judaism in any way and probably figure out what that means, though, even if you don't get why it's done. Things like "bentching" or "daven" or "kasher," not so much.

And there's an interesting intro in that book I mentioned where the author discusses where Yeshivish is really a dialect, a sociolect (as Wikipedia describes it) or a kind of creole. You get it occasionally in non-Haredi circles; I once heard my rabbi ask someone if his friend "is davka an opera singer." I love language and love Yiddish in particular for its earthiness (and great curses!), so while I like hearing stuff like that, I also think that using it to prove how spiritual you are or deliberately try and block other people out is silly. Besides, Yiddish is passe. If Lina really wanted to be a member of the Jewish elite, she'd learn Ladino.

And thanks for the nice compliment, Beeks. I've spent so long reading about stuff like this, it's nice when it comes in useful occasionally.

[Patsy]

There are concepts and traditions in Judaism that are easier to describe using Hebrew or Yiddish (or have Hebrew or Yiddish names), either because using English terminology carries with it a Christian connotation that doesn't really match the Jewish view or because it's just easier to use Hebrew or Yiddish shorthand. That said, if I'm talking to someone who's not Jewish or wouldn't know what the hell I'm talking about if I say I'm going to daven, for instance, I'll either use English or explain what I'm talking about. And endlessly peppering every single post with Yiddishisms is just unnecessary, especially if your blog is supposed to be geared toward teaching people new to observance and Judaism and so on.

I've seen her usage of those terms as being a claim to the cultural background, which is what annoys me most. No, you don't need to freakin say "Yeshua", we've got a word for that, it's "Jesus".

[fundiefan]

My friend's daughter moved to Israel. She did so, however, as a convert and is there right now in seminary which is part of the conversion process. She married a Jew who, I am assuming, has ancestry because while he is from New York he moved to Israel a few years ago.

I don't know at all how it works but it's not as simple as just packing your bags & getting the appropriate paperwork and moving like it is for other international moves

[bea]

This has nothing to do with the actual topic, but I thought of Lina and Tony the other day when I was at an absolutely gorgeous Jewish wedding. There was no bullshit about not touching before the wedding, the bride and groom lived together, and it was a fully Jewish wedding and it was SO JOYFUL. It was just....I don't even know the couple getting married that well, the bride is one of my husband's junior attorneys, and the room full of people who were just SO HAPPY that this couple was not only getting married, but getting married in the Jewish tradition and pledging to be Jewish and raise their kids Jewish and....I can't even articulate it. I cried - along with a few other observers - during the Hava Nagila, because there were a number of Holocaust survivors there and there was such a clear sense of "The world tried to kill us, they tried to wipe us out, and WE'RE STILL HERE, we're still practicing our traditions and celebrating our triumphs and we're JOYOUS."

And that's where Lina and Tony, to me, completely fail. There's no joy in their bizarre amalgamation of fundamentalist Christianity and ultra-orthodox quasi-Judaism. They're following rules that they've read about, they're not part of a community of faith, they're just picking and choosing bits of religion that appeal to them and they're calling it Judaism. All of Lina's posts are about how everyone is doing it wrong.

The wedding I was at on Saturday night? Those were people who were doing it because it's their heritage and their religion and their life and their ancestors and they didn't care if my husband and I shared their beliefs, and it didn't matter to them that half the guests weren't Jewish and didn't understand the Hebrew (they gave us little books so we could follow along in the ceremony), and there was none of this "God-honoring" and "God-ordained" crap that Lina keeps spouting. We weren't there to see a couple serve as an example of what God wants. We were there to see a young couple get married according to their religious tradition.

It was AWESOME.

[GeoBQn]

I'm really curious about what their wedding will be like. Who would officiate? I bet no actual clergy person in their area would meet their super special needs, so they will get someone in their meet up group to be ordained through the Church of the Internet. Then they will have a traditional Orthodox ceremony, but with Yeshua sprinkled everywhere.

[Beeks]

I'm really curious about what their wedding will be like. Who would officiate? I bet no actual clergy person in their area would meet their super special needs, so they will get someone in their meet up group to be ordained through the Church of the Internet. Then they will have a traditional Orthodox ceremony, but with Yeshua sprinkled everywhere.

I was wondering the same thing - who will marry them? I think she has mentioned that there is a messianic synagogue somewhere in TX/sort of near her....maybe they will travel for the ceremony or have the "rabbi" travel to them? I can't wait to hear more wedding details from her.

[TheJewAmongUs]

Of course, they don't have to make aliyah to move to Israel.

Oh, there I go again with the unnecessary terminology.

They don't have to become citizens to move to Israel.

There are tons of expat communities in Jerusalem, or at least there were when I was there 15+ years ago. Twice I stayed with American families for the weekend who tried with all their might to convince me to see it their way. Because, being actually Jewish, I can always come around, but not matter how hard they try or how much they want it, converts can't marry their sons. :roll: (Seriously, I felt... appraised on more than one occasion.)

I did scoff a little at her post that they are no longer going to touch each other before the wedding. It seemed like they're reading "The Big How-to Manual of Judaism" and when they got to chapter 14, they realized they had to do this too! :o

Twice in Israel I was taken to hear this woman speak about her book (I think it was called "The Magic Touch,") which has different stories of couples who never touched before their wedding night. Her favorite example is the ones who grew up together but had never touched, so they held hands all night long, and that was enough. Yea, ok, sounds great and all, so I'll take your word for it and keep on keeping on. (I was, afterall, 16 at the time :D )

I'm sure they will go to Israel some day to visit. And upon setting foot in the great and magical Jerusalem, they will achieve special fundie super powers that will make us all quiver in our boots and in our bedrooms...