HBO Documentary: Going Clear

[eri]

Scientology has always reminded me of Mormonism with more aliens and less Jesus (well, and polygamy). Going Clear is a really excellent book, as is Jenna Miscavige Hill's book. Hers was particularly tragic, I thought, in that she was raised in this insanity and really had no other options- her family had been living a normal life in New Hampshire one day, and the next day her parents up and decided to join the Sea Org, dragging the kids down the rabbit hole with them. Scientology schools are basically a joke, so once a kid is really entrenched in that system, they have no real options besides joining the Sea Org themselves.

I completely agree that Going Clear paints a really damning picture of Tom Cruise. The way that Katie Holmes had to go about getting herself and their kid out of his clutches, coupled with the whole Nicole Kidman breakup, which sounds more and more as if it was at least partially engineered by Cruise's Scientology handlers when it became clear that Kidman was never going to go along with the Scientology stuff, goes a long way to corroborate a lot of what the book had to say about his personality and relationship with David Miscavige. The idea that the Church of Scientology was literally auditioning women to be his next girlfriend after he broke up with Kidman is just crazy, but the kind of crazy that I don't think is made up out of whole cloth.

I wonder why polygamy isn't a thing in Scientology? It should be more common--from what I understand, you pay to move up the ladder. So the rich guys at the top could easily get greedy and start justifying polygamy on religious grounds.

I would do the same thing if I were a wealthy sociopathic man with a powerful position within my "religion"!

[VodouDoll]

Come to think of it, I don't recall anything in the book about Miscavage being into weird sex stuff or exploiting followers that way. Does anyone else? He sent his wife to rot in a Sea Org prison and that was it, lady-wise.

[Peas n carrots]

Come to think of it, I don't recall anything in the book about Miscavage being into weird sex stuff or exploiting followers that way. Does anyone else? He sent his wife to rot in a Sea Org prison and that was it, lady-wise.

Besides being violent and abusive towards people regardless of gender, there has been no evidence of him having any sexual interests outside the vanilla hetero-normative.

[FloraKitty35]

Here's the video of Miscaviage announcing that L. Ron Hubbard had died in 1986. It has subtitles to translate Scientology to English.

[treemom]

Another celebrity Scientologist who may have routed out is Lisa Marie Presley. She moved out of LA, where she has lived most of her life and the lyrics from her last album are critical of Scientology and interviews she is evasive about Scientology. However, she still has a link to CCHR (Citizens Commission on Human Rights) on her website. Priscilla Presley is still in and I don't know how in Danny, Riley and Benjamin Keough are.

She has been evasive in local Memphis media (she is active here charitably and has significant business interests with EPE). But there is indication she routed out or rather has at least not been harassed because of her standing.

[FaustianSlip]

I wonder why polygamy isn't a thing in Scientology? It should be more common--from what I understand, you pay to move up the ladder. So the rich guys at the top could easily get greedy and start justifying polygamy on religious grounds.

I would do the same thing if I were a wealthy sociopathic man with a powerful position within my "religion"!

My guess is too many kids. Children aren't really a part of the whole Scientology milieu- at one point, Sea Org members were barred from procreating entirely, and any women who got pregnant were forced to go and get abortions. I don't know if that's still the case, but the thinking, apparently, was that kids complicated the organizational logistics and created too many problems with Sea Org members actually wanting to spend time with their children. Lots and lots of wives means lots and lots of kids, even if they're supposed to be using birth control.

[shedemei]

There aren't religious grounds. Scientology doesn't believe in differences between the sexes, as we're all souls with different bodies. They extend this to titles: everyone is Mr. and Sir regardless of gender. Sex isn't a big thing in Scientology except for reproduction. Church members can be separated from spouses and parents from children (including all at once) for years. They can be told who to marry and who to divorce, and believe strictly that marriage is n and one woman.

[VodouDoll]

Besides being violent and abusive towards people regardless of gender, there has been no evidence of him having any sexual interests outside the vanilla hetero-normative.

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Miscavage is a violent, abusive psychopath, and I don't mean to minimize that at all. I'm just saying that as far as we know he's not up to any Warren Jeffs-type sexual exploitation of his followers. Though if he ever wanted to, I'm sure he'd be able to make that happen. Sorry if I was unclear.

[church_of_dog]

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Miscavage is a violent, abusive psychopath, and I don't mean to minimize that at all. I'm just saying that as far as we know he's not up to any Warren Jeffs-type sexual exploitation of his followers. Though if he ever wanted to, I'm sure he'd be able to make that happen. Sorry if I was unclear.

Good one! :lol:

[VodouDoll]

Oh! Ha! I'll pretend I phrased it that way on purpose!

[nataraja]

My favorite LRH saying, that I had forgotten about, is "truth is what is true for you." I've seen it quoted in various ways, all with the same general meaning. Anyway, that should be the response to their anti-psychiatry rants. Sorry, that's not my truth!

Eugh. I have heard and read this loads of times within the new age scene and I really have my issues with this "everbody has its own truth" sentiment.

Because I feel like that this belief supports harmful lies and I would also be confused if there wasn't any universal truth. Maybe there is some sort of truth to that sentiment but we are living in a world full of lies and deception and therefore someone telling us that truth is what is true for us is the last thing we need to hear.

[twinmama]

All the religions I can think of are based on equally ridiculous bullshit stories. It's just time which gives them a patina of less ridiculousness.

https://www.ted.com/talks/julia_sweeney ... anguage=en

Could not agree with this more. If you told the Christianity story without names, and told people you believe it actually happened, people would think you were insane. But because it's Christianity and it's been around for a long time and lots of people are into it, no one bats an eye at all the walking on water, turning water into wine, whatever other ridiculousness is in the bible.

[lilwriter85]

Scientology has always reminded me of Mormonism with more aliens and less Jesus (well, and polygamy). Going Clear is a really excellent book, as is Jenna Miscavige Hill's book. Hers was particularly tragic, I thought, in that she was raised in this insanity and really had no other options- her family had been living a normal life in New Hampshire one day, and the next day her parents up and decided to join the Sea Org, dragging the kids down the rabbit hole with them. Scientology schools are basically a joke, so once a kid is really entrenched in that system, they have no real options besides joining the Sea Org themselves.

I completely agree that Going Clear paints a really damning picture of Tom Cruise. The way that Katie Holmes had to go about getting herself and their kid out of his clutches, coupled with the whole Nicole Kidman breakup, which sounds more and more as if it was at least partially engineered by Cruise's Scientology handlers when it became clear that Kidman was never going to go along with the Scientology stuff, goes a long way to corroborate a lot of what the book had to say about his personality and relationship with David Miscavige. The idea that the Church of Scientology was literally auditioning women to be his next girlfriend after he broke up with Kidman is just crazy, but the kind of crazy that I don't think is made up out of whole cloth.

Lawrence Wright has compared similarities between Scientology and Mormonism. One similarity, he has brought up is that the LDS church, like Mormonism doesn't give new recruits/converts, the full skinny when they join. There have been reported incidents of some people leaving the LDS church and being harassed by officials from the wards they attended. Scientology does the same thing to some ex-Scenos, but in more extreme manners.

Joseph Smith had arrest records about con-artistry IIRC. People have said that some aspects of Mormon Temple ceremonies are ripped off from Freemasonry. L.Ron Hubbard took some occult ideas from people he lived with Los Angeles and put them into Scientology.

[Peas n carrots]

Lawrence Wright has compared similarities between Scientology and Mormonism. One similarity, he has brought up is that the LDS church, like Mormonism doesn't give new recruits/converts, the full skinny when they join. There have been reported incidents of some people leaving the LDS church and being harassed by officials from the wards they attended. Scientology does the same thing to some ex-Scenos, but in more extreme manners.

Joseph Smith had arrest records about con-artistry IIRC. People have said that some aspects of Mormon Temple ceremonies are ripped off from Freemasonry. L.Ron Hubbard took some occult ideas from people he lived with Los Angeles and put them into Scientology.

Not just any occult group, the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis) whose founder was Alestair Crowley. You can draw a lot of similarities with some of Alestair Crowley's teachings and LRH's.

[Howl]

The book was fascinating. Tons of detail and it just leaves you scratching your head as to why people bought into this mess

Just brought the book home from the library; can't wait to read it.

[CallmeChaCha]

ABC World News Tonight had a segment about the documentary. I can't find a link to the story. ABC News called it a "full-frontal assault on the wealthy, controversial, celebrity-studded religion" and showed that the CoS has produced several videos in response to the documentary. Excerpts from the CoS videos include: "Alex Gibney's HBO piece is textbook propaganda" "he presented a one-sided and false diatribe that can scarcely be called journalism." The reporter also discussed another CoS video that said there's no such place as "The Hole" and the site of "The Hole" is occupied by a lavish Scientology center. If I remember tomorrow, I'll try to find a link to the news segment.

Can't wait to watch this documentary.

[Peas n carrots]

Just brought the book home from the library; can't wait to read it.

I just finished it, and I agree with the OP's it was a great read. I plan on checking out some earlier books about $cientology such as A Piece of Blue Sky.

Oh, and also LRH fan's today is his 114th birthday! He was born this day in 1911 in Tilden, Nebraska (why oh why does my homestate seem to produce more than its fair share of religious nuttery?) and dropped his body on January 24th, 1986. I wonder what OT level he has reached now?

Hail Xenu!

:sci-fi-grayalien: :sci-fi-grayalien: :hb2: :hb2: :sci-fi-grayalien:

[DarkAnts]

I still want to know when Tom Cruise is going to come out of the closet.

[Cleopatra7]

One of the interesting aspects of "Going Clear" (the book version) was how Tom Cruise freaked out when he learned about the space opera/Xenu elements. Apparently, this is not an unusual reaction, and Cruise felt like he had been lied to and misled, and began distancing himself from Scientology. Miscavige put the blame on Nicole Kidman, but it seems like being exposed to the OTIII levels is what really did the trick. I think that Cruise was seduced back into Scientology by a mixture of Miscavige's hard sell/bromance and his own low self esteem. Based on the description in the book, it seems like Cruise has always felt inferior because of his dysfunctional family, his severe dyslexia, his relative lack of stature, etc. and Scientology gives him self-esteem and makes him feel special. Because he has linked so much of his identity with Scientology now, I doubt that Cruise could ever leave, even if he started doubting again.

[VodouDoll]

Their obsession with converting Steven Spielberg is insane too. That part of the book was fascinating.

[Peas n carrots]

I still want to know when Tom Cruise is going to come out of the closet.

It seems like a lot of former $cientology sources who were close to Tom Cruise swear that he is straight. However Going Clear was pretty adamant about John Travolta being attracted to men. Actually, John Travolta came off as a far more sympathetic character than Tom Cruise.

[DarkAnts]

It seems like a lot of former $cientology sources who were close to Tom Cruise swear that he is straight. However Going Clear was pretty adamant about John Travolta being attracted to men. Actually, John Travolta came off as a far more sympathetic character than Tom Cruise.

I was referring to the South Park episode.

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/155090/to ... the-closet

[Hane]

One of the interesting aspects of "Going Clear" (the book version) was how Tom Cruise freaked out when he learned about the space opera/Xenu elements. Apparently, this is not an unusual reaction, and Cruise felt like he had been lied to and misled, and began distancing himself from Scientology. Miscavige put the blame on Nicole Kidman, but it seems like being exposed to the OTIII levels is what really did the trick. I think that Cruise was seduced back into Scientology by a mixture of Miscavige's hard sell/bromance and his own low self esteem. Based on the description in the book, it seems like Cruise has always felt inferior because of his dysfunctional family, his severe dyslexia, his relative lack of stature, etc. and Scientology gives him self-esteem and makes him feel special. Because he has linked so much of his identity with Scientology now, I doubt that Cruise could ever leave, even if he started doubting again.

I'm only about 20% of the way into the book, so I may learn something different as I progress--but I once read something in which one of Tom Cruise's teachers flatly said that Cruise was emphatically NOT dyslexic. The writer of the article--wish I could remember who/where it was--apparently believed that Cruise was feigning dyslexia in order to build himself up as a feisty underdog deserving of recognition.

[Peas n carrots]

I'm only about 20% of the way into the book, so I may learn something different as I progress--but I once read something in which one of Tom Cruise's teachers flatly said that Cruise was emphatically NOT dyslexic. The writer of the article--wish I could remember who/where it was--apparently believed that Cruise was feigning dyslexia in order to build himself up as a feisty underdog deserving of recognition.

Interesting. I would imagine it would present a challenge when reading scripts. It seems he credits $cientology for helping him cope with his dyslexia.

[shedemei]

Cruise claims that he didn't actually have dyslexia after all.

There was just one problem, he admitted: he could not understand what he was reading in his training manual — and to make matters worse, a decade earlier he had been convinced of a label he found impossible to shake at the time. “I had been diagnosed with a false label, dyslexia,†he said. “With that I had been told I had a ‘learning disorder.’â€

—www.freedommag.org/english/vol36i1/page18.htm

Cruise claims that Scientology's Study Tech (aka the Applied Scholastics program Co$ pushes into schools) fixed his problems. It's a false label because Scientology believes that it is part of psychiatrist's schemes to control humanity.

I went looking for Co$ documentation in handling dyslexia in Study Tech, and found this great article from a critical source: http://studytech.org/?page_id=19