Christians and guns

[OkToBeTakei]

I think it is an americanism. I havent seen any European christians being crazy about guns.

Definitely. I have seen many ridiculous reasons served up for the desire/wish/right to own a gun, none and I mean absolutely none make any sense at all to me. Ever. Using religion is just another nonsense because obviously in countries where owning a gun is illegal all the Christians are .... What? :lol:

It's a cultural difference. Not religious.

Hunting. That's about the only reason.

[FoxyMoxie]

I'm Christian. I've never owned or shot a gun. I, personally, think the risk of shooting someone accidentally, or having a child access it is greater than the risk of an intruder coming to kill me. For me. I have no problem with people hunting for food, that's entirely different.

But -- I don't understand why it would be a contradiction to believe in " thou shall not kill" - and killing in self-defense. I may not have a gun, but if it came down to kill or be killed. Or someone killing my family -- I'd use any means at my disposal to kill first. Without guilt. Sure it might be a sin on some level -- but protection wins out, in my view anyway. I don't think Jesus meant " hey, no problem, let someone murder your child" when he talked about turning the other cheek.

Because 'thou shalt not kill' is a fairly simple commandment, it doesn't say 'thou shalt not kill except in self-defence' does it? Aside from the fact that owning a gun puts you at more danger of being killed or killing your family, rather than an intruder (and the threat of violence from a stranger compared to a family member is much much much lower than everyone thinks), why do you need to kill someone to protect others? Like if someone's coming at you with a gun, a shot to the knee is going to make them stop - there's no need to pretend that killing is morally justifiable when injuring is possible and would protect people just fine. A 'kill or be killed' situation is pretty much never going to happen and is false justification for murder from gun-lobby groups.

Like, European Christians seem to be a-OK with not having to kill others to protect their families, why aren't American Christians? It's such an Americanism and not Biblically justifiable in the least. Like Anabaptists (Amish/Mennonite/Hutterites) and Quakers are pacifists and seem to protect their families and communities just fine. Owning a gun invites violence, not preventing it.

[Mama Mia]

Because 'thou shalt not kill' is a fairly simple commandment, it doesn't say 'thou shalt not kill except in self-defence' does it? Aside from the fact that owning a gun puts you at more danger of being killed or killing your family, rather than an intruder (and the threat of violence from a stranger compared to a family member is much much much lower than everyone thinks), why do you need to kill someone to protect others? Like if someone's coming at you with a gun, a shot to the knee is going to make them stop - there's no need to pretend that killing is morally justifiable when injuring is possible and would protect people just fine. A 'kill or be killed' situation is pretty much never going to happen and is false justification for murder from gun-lobby groups.

Like, European Christians seem to be a-OK with not having to kill others to protect their families, why aren't American Christians? It's such an Americanism and not Biblically justifiable in the least. Like Anabaptists (Amish/Mennonite/Hutterites) and Quakers are pacifists and seem to protect their families and communities just fine. Owning a gun invites violence, not preventing it.

Like I said, I don't personally have a gun. Largely for the reasons you mentioned. But if I did have a gun, and someone was coming at me or my family member with a gun aiming to kill? I'd shoot them in the head or chest. If I had a knife I'd try to stab them in a vital organ. I wouldn't be chancing a kneecap. Because my ONLY goal would be saving my own or my loved ones life. Period. I wouldn't be diddling about worrying about the possible moral implications.

I don't think " kill or be killed" is a " never going to happen" situation. That's why you have people who kill in self defense. I've had my life threatened by an abusive ex. I have a young relative who was robbed at gunpoint. In either of those situations, if the assailant had been shot and killed, I think it would be justifiable. Fortunately I lived. Fortunately my relative lived. But if I had a gun, or my relative had a gun - and successfully used it - fair play. One of the primary reasons I personally don't approve of guns though is that there is a pretty big chance the assailant will use your weapon against you. Or it will scare the assailant into shooting instead of just threatening.

Also like with many issues in the U.S. I think attitudes towards gun ownership is more regional and/ or political than religious.

[Cartmann99]

Hey guys, this is a continuation of a conversation started in another thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=25060

and then went to PM, but it fits this topic much better.

__________________________________________

I would agree with you that Kory Watkins (the reactionary head of Open Carry Tarrant County) is not helping the open carry movement present their case in a good light and can completely understand why CJ Grisham ( the head of Open Carry Texas) wants to distance his group from Kory. That said, CJ Grisham has his own issues that could prevent him from qualifying for an open carry permit if Texas based the requirements for it on the CHL (Concealed Handgun License).

Both CJ Grisham, founder of Open Carry Texas, and Kory Watkins, who heads Open Carry Tarrant County, have arrests on Class B misdemeanor charges of interfering with the public duties of a peace officer.

Under state law, anyone convicted of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor is ineligible to carry a concealed handgun for five years; those arrested for similar offenses see their concealed handgun licenses revoked until the issue is settled. Delinquent child support payments, a history of substance abuse or mental health issues also would disqualify some from being eligible for a concealed handgun license

Http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/po ... 060477.php

Then there's Travis Kuenstler:

Travis Raymond Kuenstler, 34, was arrested Thursday and charged with criminal trespass, a class B misdemeanor. The former enlisted Marine and chapter coordinator for Open Carry Texas had traveled to Austin to join dozens of other activists urging lawmakers to lift Texas' 125-year ban on the open carry of handguns.

Open Carry Texas founder CJ Grisham said Kuenstler was arrested after he repeatedly questioned why Department of Public Safety officers were asking him to hand over a plastic toy gun he had holstered.

"He just said, 'What law am I breaking?' and at that point they handcuffed him," said Grisham, who pointed to a YouTube video that showed the toy was a plastic cap gun. "It's literally too small to fit in a normal person's hand."

Kuenstler has been arrested five times in Harris County over the last 10 years. On Sept. 16, 2008, he arrested for assault with a deadly weapon and possession of less than a gram of MDA, an amphetamine. The felony assault charge later was reduced to deadly conduct, a class A misdemeanor, for which Kuenstler was convicted and spent 60 days in county jail

Http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/po ... 080098.php

I don't know all the details about Kuenstler and the plastic cap gun so I won't be discussing that part of the quote, but this man's previous arrests are troubling to me.

Okay, so the reason that open carry folks are openly carrying long guns is because it's illegal to openly carry a handgun in Texas, right? If this is really about convenience for CHL holders as you say, it would make more sense to me, for CHL folks to carry posters with a picture of their handgun and say something like: "I have passed all the requirements to obtain a CHL in the state of Texas. It is illegal for me to openly carry the gun in this picture. As a law abiding citizen of this state, I would like to see the law changed so that I may legally carry my handgun openly." While I disagree with their stance, to me that seems a better way of making one's point and also makes the person in question look like a reasonable adult.

Right now, open carry folks are coming across to me as a group of people unable or unwilling to obtain or maintain a CHL in the state of Texas. If the cause is truly about CHL holders wanting the flexibility to legally carry openly, those folks need to start their own distinct group where every member is a current CHL holder with no current legal problems.

Obviously, I am not a fan of the open carry movement. If the state of Texas chooses to go open carry, especially constitutional carry ( no permit or licensing needed to carry openly), I will not be a happy camper. That said, I believe that most gun owners are sane, responsible, law-abiding citizens, who understand the immense responsibility that comes with choosing to own a deadly weapon. I'm not a gun owner, nor am I a gun hater. I'm just someone who doesn't believe that easier access to guns is the solution to every problem that we face.

[salex]

I have always wondered if I were the only person to think one or both of these guys is really just tryig to compensate for shortcomings.. I mean, really can you be any more symbolic than having a gun dangle between your legs?

I work around a lot of people who carry as part of their jobs, so I am in a lot of meetings, classes and conferences where people are carrying, legally. They are holstered and carried by very well trained people, but I am always aware of the weapons AND of who is around the people with the weapon at any given time. I am not frightened, I am simply alert.

That said, if I walked into a restaurant and so the guys in this picture with those particular weapons, I might well not order, as I have no reason to believe, based on that picture, that they are trained, attentive or aware enough to be casually carrying those particular weapons.

[ghost]

I have always wondered if I were the only person to think one or both of these guys is really just tryig to compensate for shortcomings.. I mean, really can you be any more symbolic than having a gun dangle between your legs?

I work around a lot of people who carry as part of their jobs, so I am in a lot of meetings, classes and conferences where people are carrying, legally. They are holstered and carried by very well trained people, but I am always aware of the weapons AND of who is around the people with the weapon at any given time. I am not frightened, I am simply alert.

That said, if I walked into a restaurant and so the guys in this picture with those particular weapons, I might well not order, as I have no reason to believe, based on that picture, that they are trained, attentive or aware enough to be casually carrying those particular weapons.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I would turn around and walk out...quickly.

[formergothardite]

People who carry around guns like that are not people, IME, who care a lot about gun safety. It is more about bragging about their guns.

[Toothfairy]

I hate gun people like this. It's like your saying look at me I have a gun. And why in the hell do you need a gun like that. It's like waiting for something bad to happen. Nobody needs those kind of guns. Unless your planning to kill.

[Mama Mia]

Wait. So there are towns and/ or states where people just walk around other people in populated areas and into stores and restaurants with a big gun in their hands ? :shock:

Wouldn't people hit the floor or scream or hand over their wallet or call 9-1-1?

I mean, I could see maybe way out in the country if it was an area where people hunt.....but they do this in actual towns?

[RosyDaisy]

I live in Alabama, and I have never seen anybody other than law enforcement having a visible gun in public places like restaurants and stores. They are usually wearing a uniform or have a badge visible on their person. I would freak the fuck out and run out the nearest exit if I saw a private citizen with a visible gun in a public place.

[formergothardite]

I'm in NC and have never seen people walk around with guns like that. If I saw that I would freak out and call 911. I'm pretty sure those guns are not used for hunting. I know people who collect guns who have guns like that, but no one who would walk around in public with them.

[Cartmann99]

Wait. So there are towns and/ or states where people just walk around other people in populated areas and into stores and restaurants with a big gun in their hands ? :shock:

Wouldn't people hit the floor or scream or hand over their wallet or call 9-1-1?

I mean, I could see maybe way out in the country if it was an area where people hunt.....but they do this in actual towns?

These guys are part of the open carry movement in Texas that I discussed in my previous comment. Yes, they go into certain businesses, congregate near heavily trafficked areas, or just walk around in a group with their weapons. Some businesses have politely asked them to not bring their weapons into their stores or restaurants which goes over like lead balloon.

Just Google "Open carry movement" if you want to know more about the movement in general.

I just checked Open Carry Texas's webpage, and my county has a chapter of Open Carry Texas.

Hell, I'd be stunned if my county didn't have a chapter. :roll:

[FloraKitty35]

These guys are part of the open carry movement in Texas that I discussed in my previous comment. Yes, they go into certain businesses, congregate near heavily trafficked areas, or just walk around in a group with their weapons. Some businesses have politely asked them to not bring their weapons into their stores or restaurants which goes over like lead balloon.

Just Google "Open carry movement" if you want to know more about the movement in general.

I just checked Open Carry Texas's webpage, and my county has a chapter of Open Carry Texas.

Hell, I'd be stunned if my county didn't have a chapter. :roll:

My sister in law has a job where she has to travel a lot and she was gushing over how great she thought that this was when she is in TX. She felt so safe. She is a dingbat. :cray-cray:

[flojo]

I'm a relatively new immigrant to the US, having moved here about 18 months ago. I still find American gun culture a tad jarring. On the one hand, I have a lot of friends who use guns extremely responsibly. On the other hand, the lack of regulation really bothers me. I personally know people who really should not have guns (E.g. certain mental illnesses. In my state unless you've been hospitalised there's no restriction. I struggled to write this as I don't want to seem against people with mental illnesses - I personally have GAD, but I do think there should be better restrictions).

In my experience, a lot of American conservative Christians struggle to separate American conservative politics/culture with Christianity. Hence a lot of Christians being against welfare etc. I think the gun culture stems out of that.

[nausicaa]

I live in Alabama, and I have never seen anybody other than law enforcement having a visible gun in public places like restaurants and stores. They are usually wearing a uniform or have a badge visible on their person. I would freak the fuck out and run out the nearest exit if I saw a private citizen with a visible gun in a public place.

Do you mean in their hands or just in a visible holster? I live in the DC metro area, in Virginia, (so pretty urban and becoming more and more liberal) and I have seen A LOT of people who have a handgun (small, nothing like the ones in the photo) in a visible holster on their hips eating in restaurants or just out shopping or playing with their kids. And it was unlikely they were law enforcement or anything like that. I mean, it's not everyday, but I can think of more than ten times I've seen this off the top of my head, and one guy I work with always has a gun in a side holster whenever I visit him at his office (and he works in IT, not law enforcement, and his office is not in a remotely dangerous area either so it's definitely a political statement). I'm surprised, because I would expect this would be at least as common in Alabama? Or do I just attract anarcho-libertarian types into my orbit?

However, I can't ever recall seeing someone with such a large gun, and certainly not being carried in their hands, out in public. And you'd think I'd remember something like that... And no matter the size of the weapon, if someone walked into a public place carrying a firearm, as if about to shoot someone, I would begin to freak out.

[nausicaa]

An American friend's dad is a pastor, and a seminary friend of his is spending time in Jordan. A Jordanian (Christian) student asked him how it was possible for him to be an American and a Christian. Food for thought.

Considering that "American" is not synonymous with "pro-gun," that the more than 300 million people who are Americans vary widely in their political and religious beliefs, and that one has no say over the country of one's birth...I'm really confused as to what food is supposed to feed what thoughts?

[RosyDaisy]

I mean in a holster. I also live in rural Alabama, not in a big city. But I do see hunters in or near the woods with guns in their hands, but I'm used to that.

[stardust]

I am a Christian, though I consider myself politically a moderate (registered independent) and social liberal/libertarian. I can try and add some perspective as someone in the middle of the debate and left-leaning on social issues. I believe in the right to bear arms. If the constitution becomes amended and the 2nd amendment is done away with, fine, I'll follow the law without much fuss.

I know that with all the gun violence in the media in the past two or three years it's hard to understand why anyone would be pro-gun, but then if you look at the statistics, most crimes aren't committed by gun owners. The people who commit these crimes are criminals who often steal them or purchase guns easily (our gun laws, which are crappy to begin with, aren't even enforced).

I just feel like the rest of us shouldn't be punished because some idiot broke the law and decided to shoot up a theater or a school. Despite the problematics of the second amendment in the past, the purpose of the law today is to protect us against the type of people who trespass on our land or aim to harm/steal from us. I know that if it were me or one of my loved ones vs an intruder, I would take the intruder out, no question.

As for the biblical side of the debate, I believe that when God commanded against murder, he was talking about voluntary murder, or first degree murder as we know it today. Calculated, revenge-minded, malice-driven murder against someone who has wronged us. I don't believe he was talking about defending yourself and your family against someone who wants to kill you. I can't imagine he would want you to idly stand by and let yourself die and not fight for your life against an evil person. I may be wrong on this, but this is how I see it.

It's pretty much the same way I see war in the bible (because people often tie in gun rights, war, and the death penalty as conflicts of interest with Christianity- though I will say I do not favor the latter as there are examples of evil people in the scripture repenting). War obviously involves killing, and yet there are wars in the bible where God helps his servants fight (and ultimately kill) their enemies.

Phew. Reading over that, I sound like a bit of a gun nut and warmonger (yes, I'll defend guns, but I personally hate war and think Bush's wars were unnecessary). Anyway, hope I provided some perspective into how guns and Christiany can coincide.

[Maxwell]

Came across this quote today:

“Like parachutes and fire-extinguishers, guns are emergency/safety equipment. When you require one, your need will be immediate, critical, and desperate. And, when unprepared, you’ll likely never need one again!â€

Anon

That pretty much sums up my views. I'm a Christian, libertarian, concealed carry holder, and regular gun carrier. I mean no harm to any that do not intend to harm me, my family, or those around me.

I agree with much of what Stardust said although I would strongly disagree with his/her hohum take on the 2nd amendment, I see it as just as vital as the other 9 in the bill of rights. I also have no qualms with the death penalty.

Just my $0.02.

[jaelh]

I agree with much of what Stardust said although I would strongly disagree with his/her hohum take on the 2nd amendment, I see it as just as vital as the other 9 in the bill of rights.

But what is it vital for?

There are many other non-tyrannical democracies in the world that survive without an armed populace. Self-defence wise, most counties in the developed the world have much lower murder rates than the US. What am I missing?

For those of you who are "pro-gun", can I ask: the second amendment doesn't state a right to bear guns; it's a right to bear arms. Do you support the right to open carry samurai swords in Walmart, or to keep rocket launchers in the back yard? Maybe a brace of grenades on your belt, for when you know that person who wants to kill you and yours is alone the next room over?

If not, why not? The same arguments that can be made about guns can, for the most part, be made about other weapons. Where is the line? Or should there be no line?

[Walking Cat Bed]

I'm in NC and have never seen people walk around with guns like that. If I saw that I would freak out and call 911. I'm pretty sure those guns are not used for hunting. I know people who collect guns who have guns like that, but no one who would walk around in public with them.

Same state, and I've not NOTICED people walking around with guns in public. My connections to local veterans means that some of them likely have concealed-carry permits, but MOST of that subgroup know how to handle guns. Most public places are no-gun zones (which doesn't bother me at all) and most of the rental residences are just that -- rentals, mostly to students. I know the apartments I rented had no-gun policies. My roommate (who owns the house) has said that I CAN own a gun if it's stored safely and he doesn't know where it is; I'm choosing to not own a gun.

But I'm in a city (the state capitol) and live in a neighborhood in which, well, the older residents tend to be more wary of gun use because of typical police response to young people in this area of town having guns. Every few years the universities (especially mine, since it has the agriculture programs) debate whether to allow registered guns on campus. I always vote against it, because I prefer to know exactly who should have guns -- the campus and city police. Makes it a LOT easier as a bystander to know where the guns SHOULD be, based on who's wearing a uniform and/or has a badge. If I saw someone without a uniform and/or badge holding a gun, I'd get out of their line of sight and call the police.