Gay Marriage Worse than Divorce or Cohabition

[Cleopatra7]

I couldn't fit it into the title, but the ones making this claim are "top Catholics and evangelicals," who plan to write a sequel to the "Manhattan Declaration" about how gay marriage will lead America into a moral abyss and cause believers in "traditional marriage" to be oppressed.

http://www.religionnews.com/2015/01/28/ ... abitation/

(link not broken because it's a news site)

In addition to obsessing over gay marriage, the signers also show their obsession with policing gender

The signers say they “do not dispute the evident fact of hormonal and chromosomal irregularities, nor of different sexual attractions and desires.†But they say that in legitimating same-sex marriage, “a kind of alchemy is performed, not merely on the institution, but on human nature itself.â€

“We are today urged to embrace an abstract conception of human nature that ignores the reality of our bodies. Human beings are no longer to be understood as either male or female,†it says. The result, it says, will undermine society by eliminating any moral compass except that which the state declares to be the norm, to the exclusion of all others.

While some conservatives think that the fight against marriage is a lost cause, other seem to think of it as a Lost Cause in the Southern sense of "a noble and godly cause that was lost due to the overwhelming cunning of the enemy, not because we ourselves were backing the wrong pony." I have a feeling like things are going to get very dicey and possibly violent when/if gay marriage is legalized in the Deep South, as there are already calls to stop issuing marriage licenses to ANYONE if this happens.

[doggie]

a moral .compass that points to your direction or your holy asshat leaders direction. Religious leaders have been destroying moral compasses far longer then gays ever could have.

[KittenMitten]

The thing that I have never been able to understand is why fundies care if gay people marry. How does it effect them? How will it destroy family values? How can it undermine society? This belief just does not make sense.

[Grimalkin]

The thing that I have never been able to understand is why fundies care if gay people marry. How does it effect them? How will it destroy family values? How can it undermine society? This belief just does not make sense.

I have genuinely sought out logical arguments as to why homosexuality is a sin. Can't find any other than its in the Bible. I once asked on CAF why it was worse than sex before marriage and someone said something about Angels weeping can't really remember. I also asked if homosexual relations were worse than rape, since there was a lot of raping going on in sodom and Gamorrah. No real answers.

[August]

I was chatting with another mother at the skating rink the other day about produce quality at Aldis. I could just feel her marriage oppressing mine the whole time, even as we decided it was good for an occasional trip, but another supermarket is better for weekly shopping.

These people spend so much time running around like headless chickens they haven't even noticed that the rest of us are just going about our normal business completely normally, same as always. You'd think if The Gays were so into a special lifestyle they would be the ones scared of us oppressing them into boring married suburban life. Could it be they're pretty much exactly the same as the rest of us?

[Cleopatra7]

I have genuinely sought out logical arguments as to why homosexuality is a sin. Can't find any other than its in the Bible. I once asked on CAF why it was worse than sex before marriage and someone said something about Angels weeping can't really remember. I also asked if homosexual relations were worse than rape, since there was a lot of raping going on in sodom and Gamorrah. No real answers.

For evangelicals, opposition to homosexuality is based on the "clobber texts" in Leviticus and Romans. For Catholics, it's the afore mentioned verses combined with natural law theory, which states that sex has a single teleological end (eg reproduction) and using the genitals for any other purpose other than heterosexual baby making is "unnatural" and a misuse of sex and the genitalia. The problem is how do we know that reproduction is the only licit use of the genitals? One could make a good argument that pleasure and social bonding is the primary purpose of sex and reproduction is secondary. There is nothing particularly "natural" about natural law theory, since it's based in a pre scientific understanding of anatomy, psychology, and human development. It starts with a particularly Catholic set of assumptions about human nature and God and works backwards to justify these assumptions by using a fallacious appeal to "nature."

[Caribou]

What I truly don't understand about all this pontificating on the sanctity of heterosexual marriage being ripped apart and the hysteria of society spiralling down into moral chaos if marriage equality is legalized throughout the entire US, is this:

Are none of these bigoted religious leaders and politicians aware that same-sex marriage is legal in other countries (17 as of January 1,2015) and, to my knowledge, none have descended into anarchy and Christian oppression? Up here in Canada, it's been the law nation-wide since 2005 and, so far, my 32 year hetero marriage is still chugging along unaffected.

My cousin married his male partner 5 years ago and they have created a happy, normal life together. My son got (hetero) married last summer and among the friends and family attending were 4 gay couples. They danced together, kissed each other, held hands and enjoyed themselves - just like every hetero couple there. No one batted an eye and no one felt threatened or oppressed.

Why is it such a big deal amongst these "paragons of morality"?

[Cleopatra7]

What I truly don't understand about all this pontificating on the sanctity of heterosexual marriage being ripped apart and the hysteria of society spiralling down into moral chaos if marriage equality is legalized throughout the entire US, is this:

Are none of these bigoted religious leaders and politicians aware that same-sex marriage is legal in other countries (17 as of January 1,2015) and, to my knowledge, none have descended into anarchy and Christian oppression? Up here in Canada, it's been the law nation-wide since 2005 and, so far, my 32 year hetero marriage is still chugging along unaffected.

My cousin married his male partner 5 years ago and they have created a happy, normal life together. My son got (hetero) married last summer and among the friends and family attending were 4 gay couples. They danced together, kissed each other, held hands and enjoyed themselves - just like every hetero couple there. No one batted an eye and no one felt threatened or oppressed.

Why is it such a big deal amongst these "paragons of morality"?

I think it's because they are afraid of not being able to openly speak against homosexuality as such. Much like how the Civil Rights Movement made open racism unfashionable, the push for gay marriage is normalizing the idea of LGBT people as regular Americans, not social and sexual deviants. Gay marriage is tacit approval, or at least toleration of homosexuality, which is anathema to religious conservatives. This is why Orson Scott Card believes that anti sodomy laws should have remained on the books even if they weren't enforced, because it would be a symbol of society's distaste of homosexuality and discourage people from coming out of the closet . Then there is also the problem of ethics. If the Bible/Christian tradition is wrong about homosexuality, what else could it be wrong about?

[Caribou]

I see. So the fact that their dire predictions of the consequences of legalization haven't occurred in other countries is simply ignored in order for them to legitimize their hate. Interesting.

Here's another question. When these homophobes are given a media platform to spew their nonsense, why does the mainstream press never ask them directly why countries that have gay marriage aren't suffering in the way they predict? No one will ask that pointed type of question.

Any thoughts?

[Cleopatra7]

I see. So the fact that their dire predictions of the consequences of legalization haven't occurred in other countries is simply ignored in order for them to legitimize their hate. Interesting.

Here's another question. When these homophobes are given a media platform to spew their nonsense, why does the mainstream press never ask them directly why countries that have gay marriage aren't suffering in the way they predict? No one will ask that pointed type of question.

Any thoughts?

My guess is that the mainstream media is too US - centric to even think to compare us with the countries of Western Europe. As it is, most media outlets barely pay attention to the outside world. Religious conservatives in general seem to think that Europe is a lost cause, full of socialized medicine, empty churches, gay marriage, and too many Muslims. Many of the people we snark on here probably think that He'll is spelled E-U-R-O-P-E.

[RosyDaisy]

I would argue that this is a clear case of violation of freedom of religion if the state is inserting words like God and Bible as a reason to ban gay marriage.

[RosyDaisy]

I see. So the fact that their dire predictions of the consequences of legalization haven't occurred in other countries is simply ignored in order for them to legitimize their hate. Interesting.

Here's another question. When these homophobes are given a media platform to spew their nonsense, why does the mainstream press never ask them directly why countries that have gay marriage aren't suffering in the way they predict? No one will ask that pointed type of question.

Any thoughts?

Because it turns into circus with both sides doing nothing but arguing with each other.

[lawfulevil]

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

Cleopatra7 sometimes sounds (in this thread) so much like my roommate's 300-level psychology textbook this semester

for a course on human sexuality

that it's kind of frightening.

I mean, in a good way!

By which I mean, on-point and no bullshit.

[feministxtian]

I was talking to someone about gay marriage destroying the "sanctity" of hetero marriage. I asked her one question...it was snarky and probably rude but she didn't have an answer....

"looks to me like straight folks have already destroyed the "sanctity of marriage". Look at the divorce rate...if marriage was so sacred, there'd be a helluva lot less divorces".

[whoviana]

I was talking to someone about gay marriage destroying the "sanctity" of hetero marriage. I asked her one question...it was snarky and probably rude but she didn't have an answer....

"looks to me like straight folks have already destroyed the "sanctity of marriage". Look at the divorce rate...if marriage was so sacred, there'd be a helluva lot less divorces".

At least divorce is fair play comparing to the amount of cheating that goes on in the married world. When they live under the same roof under the sanctity of their ever loving marriage and even the kids know that one parent or both of them are shitting all over the sanctity of their marriage.

[feministxtian]

At least divorce is fair play comparing to the amount of cheating that goes on in the married world. When they live under the same roof under the sanctity of their ever loving marriage and even the kids know that one parent or both of them are shitting all over the sanctity of their marriage.

True...and particularly relevant given some "bombshell" information my husband found out yesterday about what really happened between his mother and bio-dad. However, it seems that fabricating a lie and tearing down someone who was not able to speak for himself is better than admitting the truth.

[whoviana]

I'm sorry you guys have to deal with that. It kinda blows. :/ From the been there done that team. As to, you know, things appearing like a fabrication or twisted versions, the truth is stranger than fiction and the world of adultery is not an exception.

[feministxtian]

I'm sorry you guys have to deal with that. It kinda blows. :/ From the been there done that team. As to, you know, things appearing like a fabrication or twisted versions, the truth is stranger than fiction and the world of adultery is not an exception.

It was discovering the story my MIL told regarding how she met my h's stepfather was a total lie. My husband's bio-dad's sister got in touch with us and told us the true story...