Jahi McMath back in the news - Part 2

[salex]

Her go fund me account is still getting some donations. And they still provide a PO box for people to send "cards and letters" to jahi....

[Toothfairy]

These people are disgusting. This is when the courts should step in and do what's best for the child. Because apparently her parents just see their dead daughter as a money maker machine

[Trynn]

Well, gruesome as it is... I don't blame them for not stepping in. Jahi is dead, so she's not exactly suffering. And this is kind of a messy situation in the media... It would just look like the government overstepped their bounds and killed the poor girl.

[BrownieMomma]

I am not even sure who should step in - a court? govt agency?

In this particular case, since it is in the news, I bet no one wants to touch that with a ten foot pole. Who or what even has jurisdiction.

Maybe if someone else, like the bio-father, sued to take the child off life support?

Who, in a society, has a compelling interest in disposing of dead bodies. There's no health issue here related to decomposition, at least not yet apparently.

So is the lesson we are learning that if you have the means to keep the body minimally functional, you can keep your dead loved one in the spare bedroom infinitely?

The longer this drags out, the creepier it gets.

[16strong]

Exactly how long is it going to take for Jahi's body to decay enough to the point where they are forced to take her off life support? As far as I can tell, this isn't even like a Terri Schiavo situation. Terri Schiavo was alive in some capacity, iirc. Jahi is DEAD.

How long are they going to keep this up? It's been over a year now. Every month from here on out, we're creeping towards TWO years. :shock:

[DGayle]

There are other kids being forced to treat a corpse like it's alive. And at this point, I really question the mental stability of the mother.

[bionicmlle]

These people are disgusting. This is when the courts should step in and do what's best for the child. Because apparently her parents just see their dead daughter as a money maker machine

Unfortunately, the "courts stepping in" is what started this mess in the first place. The judge made a horrible decision to allow the family the right to keep her on a vent when all medical evidence proves she is dead. (yes, Dead, dead, dead.)

[Rachel333]

Exactly how long is it going to take for Jahi's body to decay enough to the point where they are forced to take her off life support? As far as I can tell, this isn't even like a Terri Schiavo situation. Terri Schiavo was alive in some capacity, iirc. Jahi is DEAD.

How long are they going to keep this up? It's been over a year now. Every month from here on out, we're creeping towards TWO years. :shock:

I agree that Jahi is dead, but her body is still somewhat alive, correct? I'm sure her body is wasting, but it's not going to decay as long as it's still hooked up to the machines.

And yeah, it seems like Terri Schiavo's body could still stay alive on its own since they had to remove the feeding tube to let her die. Jahi's body wouldn't survive without the machines keeping it alive.

[DGayle]

I agree that Jahi is dead, but her body is still somewhat alive, correct? I'm sure her body is wasting, but it's not going to decay as long as it's still hooked up to the machines.

And yeah, it seems like Terri Schiavo's body could still stay alive on its own since they had to remove the feeding tube to let her die. Jahi's body wouldn't survive without the machines keeping it alive.

No, her body isn't somewhat alive. She's dead as can be. Turn the machines off, and she's going to probably flatline immediately. Terri's brain had atrophied beyond the point of help, but she had just enough activity for her to breathe. Jahi doesn't have that.

What's happening is the equivalent of pushing a car with a dead motor while trying to convince everyone that you have a running car.

[BrownieMomma]

No, her body isn't somewhat alive. She's dead as can be. Turn the machines off, and she's going to probably flatline immediately. Terri's brain had atrophied beyond the point of help, but she had just enough activity for her to breathe. Jahi doesn't have that.

What's happening is the equivalent of pushing a car with a dead motor while trying to convince everyone that you have a running car.

An excellent analogy.

[Buzzard]

I was on TPN for 7 months and was not permitted to eat or drink ANYTHING. I didnt lose an ounce and, at one point when they had it cranking, gained 3 pounds. They are quite able to support a person without the cooperation of the person thats "plugged in."

So long as the machines are keeping her heart beating and her breathing she can get supplemental nutrition to keep the "car" fueled. This could go on for years... or until the money runs out.

Its an interesting question because the death certificate was issued. She cant get a guardian ad litem and CPS has no place - because she's dead. There is no agency representing the interests of corpses. Perhaps the medical board in NJ can issue an advisory, but, for the most part, they're on their own so long as the dollars keep the light bill paid.

[Bethella]

I think if someone really wanted to they could arrest the family and/or medical personnel for desecration of a corpse, although there is a real chance it wouldn't hold up in court.

[Rachel333]

No, her body isn't somewhat alive. She's dead as can be. Turn the machines off, and she's going to probably flatline immediately. Terri's brain had atrophied beyond the point of help, but she had just enough activity for her to breathe. Jahi doesn't have that.

What's happening is the equivalent of pushing a car with a dead motor while trying to convince everyone that you have a running car.

She's brain dead and if you turned the machines off she would die immediately, which is what I said. Her body is still going, though. She is brain dead and legally dead (so Jahi the person is gone and never coming back) but her body is not clinically dead. She's a "beating heart cadaver" and she's not going to start decaying as long as the machines are still going. This could potentially drag on for many more years. The fact is that there is no easy definition of "death" in cases like these.

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may/10 ... art-donors

This was kind of interesting and I think I'm going to try to find the book it comes from. From everything I've read I agree with the idea that brain death is death (which this excerpt is questioning somewhat), but these issues really just are not simple anymore.

Edit: http://www.npr.org/2012/03/19/148296627 ... -and-death]

I like this better because this is an interview with Teresi, the author of the book from the above link, and then a transplant surgeon who doesn't agree with Teresi. I agree with the doctor here that in these cases the person is just dead, but their body has not experienced permanent cardiac death yet. It's bizarre, but "dead" just doesn't have a simple definition anymore.

I'm an organ donor, by the way, and if I'm ever in that situation I hope whoever is in charge of making those decisions (at this point probably my parents, and this is something I've discussed with them) will let my organs be donated and then let me die instead of keeping my body artificially alive long after I'm gone.

[Coconut Flan]

Some of the corpses do decay while on artificial support. The family, I think it was in Texas, where the pregnant woman was brain dead and the hospital insisted on keeping her on artificial support said her skin was sloughing off and she began to smell.

[BrownieMomma]

And so it starts...

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_27630597?source=infinite

Jahi McMath: Oakland girl's family sues hospital, surgeon

[Buzzard]

Family members are suing for personal injuries on behalf of Jahi, negligent infliction of emotional distress, wrongful death, and claim the hospital breached standards of care. They are seeking an unspecified amount of money. Rosen, the surgeon, and the hospital are listed as defendants.

There is a cap of $250,000 on medical malpractice lawsuits involving children who die as a result of surgery. The court would have to decide if this cap applies to Jahi, as the family and attorney are prepared to argue that she is alive, and should be compensated for the care and damage from her surgery.

You dont get to sue for "wrongful death" and then argue that someone isnt dead. I love how they are asking yet another court to ignore the law and science. I still dont see any allegation that would tend to indicate that they breached a standard of care.

[Toothfairy]

Wtf is wrong with these people. It's all about money which is sad. If they sue will the truth come out? Will HIPPA be overturned?

[Buzzard]

Wtf is wrong with these people. It's all about money which is sad. If they sue will the truth come out? Will HIPPA be overturned?

If they sue the hospital will be able to respond in briefs and pleadings, which will likely be public records. I'm not sure why they felt the need to announce that they are PLANNING on suing, announce that you filed. They're just seeking attention.

[browncoatslytherin]

You dont get to sue for "wrongful death" and then argue that someone isnt dead. I love how they are asking yet another court to ignore the law and science. I still dont see any allegation that would tend to indicate that they breached a standard of care.

that's exactly what i was thinking as i read that part...how are they going to sue for wrongful death if they keep insisting she's not dead? and if they do go through with wrongful death and happen to get something from a wrongful death lawsuit, would they then finally admit that she is dead and not alive and they keep insisting? these people are so confusing, i swear. :?

[DGayle]

She is absolutely dead. Clinically and in every way possible. Hooking someone up to machines to slow or stop decay doesn't mean someone is alive. She's dead, and it IS as simple as that. There is no doubt that she will NEVER wake up, and if you pull the machines, everything will stop. Arguing that it's tricky these days is actually very dangerous. If you argue that, as long as someone's hooked up to machines, that they're alive, then what we will have is a society where our dead are hooked up to machines so families can get payments of various sorts for people WHO ARE DEAD.

"the family and attorney are prepared to argue that she is alive and should be compensated for the care and damage from her surgery."

I think the adults behind this suit should be tossed in jail for fraud. That's all this is. She is DEAD EVERY doctor who's examined her agrees, and they're pushing forward anyway to try to bilk the hospital out of millions. This is a clear case of fraud. It's not about Jahi. It's about how to use what happened to get money they're not entitled to.

They are fucking STUPID if they think they're going to get money out of this. My father-in-law went in for prostate cancer surgery, and the doctor fucked up and overshot the prostate and scraped some cells into another part of my FIL's body. A nurse in the OR told my mother-in-law about this because she was so upset. The doctor left it out of the report, and when called out on it claimed he told my FIL in the recovery room, when he was still sleeping from the meds. My FIL has spent the past 5 years with cancer that was caused by that surgery. No reputable attorney will touch the case because, even though many have told my in-laws they have definite proof as well as copies of medical records before and after being altered (they request full copies monthly, and yeah, it's expensive), proving it's malpractice to the satisfaction of a court is beyond difficult. You've got to have a doctor coming in reeking of gin, or removing a wrong leg, not merely something considered to be an error and a cover-up, even by a doctor whose made a lot of other errors to the point that there's a support group for patients that fuckwad has harmed. The state medical board is a useless piece of shit. Pretty much not until you can get a doctor's license taken away are you going to have a shot in hell.

I think Jahi's family is hoping for a quick settlement. I hope the hospital doesn't cave in.

[BrownieMomma]

They are fucking STUPID if they think they're going to get money out of this. My father-in-law went in for prostate cancer surgery, and the doctor fucked up and overshot the prostate and scraped some cells into another part of my FIL's body. A nurse in the OR told my mother-in-law about this because she was so upset. The doctor left it out of the report, and when called out on it claimed he told my FIL in the recovery room, when he was still sleeping from the meds. My FIL has spent the past 5 years with cancer that was caused by that surgery. No reputable attorney will touch the case because, even though many have told my in-laws they have definite proof as well as copies of medical records before and after being altered (they request full copies monthly, and yeah, it's expensive), proving it's malpractice to the satisfaction of a court is beyond difficult. You've got to have a doctor coming in reeking of gin, or removing a wrong leg, not merely something considered to be an error and a cover-up, even by a doctor whose made a lot of other errors to the point that there's a support group for patients that fuckwad has harmed. The state medical board is a useless piece of shit. Pretty much not until you can get a doctor's license taken away are you going to have a shot in hell.

I think Jahi's family is hoping for a quick settlement. I hope the hospital doesn't cave in.

This happened to a co-worker. She had a relatively simple surgery, the doctor messed it up, she spent YEARS getting herself back to working order, had to wear a colostomy bag for several years... not one attorney in the region would help her sue the doctor.

Professionals sticking together for one thing, and not something really obvious and clear cut. She had so many losses due to the dr screwup and not one shred of compensation.

[Rachel333]

From everything I can find, and I've been reading a lot, if her heart is beating she is not yet clinically dead, which has a specific definition as the cessation of circulation and breathing. With life support she (her body, rather) is not yet considered clinically dead even though clinical death would occur immediately if life support were to be removed. Her cells are still alive, too, but even in normal deaths some cells would continue to function for a while after death.

There are multiple ways to define death now. That's just how it is now and how to deal with that legally is another issue. Doctors can pronounce people dead even if clinical death has not occurred and legally speaking I would think brain death is death.

Jahi is dead. She's brain dead, LEGALLY dead, and there is absolutely no chance that she is coming back because she is dead. Jahi the person is no more alive than is Henrietta Lacks, whose cancer cells have survived her for over 60 years now. I'm not saying in any way that Jahi's body should be considered a person anymore.

I'm just really curious how this all works medically and trying to get a handle on it because I haven't found a lot of great sources. Obviously her family isn't a reliable source and the actual doctors who worked with her I thought at first that her body was just a regular dead body because a year ago (ugh) people were saying that she would start to decay pretty soon, but that hasn't happened throughout her whole body. Her brain has probably long since liquefied, though (gross, sorry). There probably just haven't been many bodies maintained in this state for so long so there aren't many examples.

[DGayle]

There is death, and there is life. There aren't different degree ways of dead. When you're dead, you're dead. We need to stop supporting this idea that "there are multiple ways." Someone can define it however they want on their own time. A lot of people believe loved ones are still alive even after cremation. That's not a different definition of dead. It's still dead.

Again, if you push a car, it's not a running car even though it's moving. Machines are keeping the blood flowing. It's all artificial, and it's dangerous to support artificial means as being life. Jahi is dead. The state didn't issue a death certificate for fun. She meets the qualifications for clinically dead. She's not someone who has brain activity and is on machine-support because her body isn't working and needs help until they can get her body to function on its own. She is DEAD. Without a brain that works, she will NEVER get back to functioning.

The brain controls the body. Without it, her heart will never beat. Her lungs will never inhale. A hand massaging a heart isn't a beat, but there is still a change if the brain has activity. An iron lung isn't the lungs breathing, but there is still life if the brain has activity. Jahi has no activity. Keeping her on machines, which was done AFTER her heart did stop on its own, is not life. It's corpse preservation.

[Coco]

i wonder if this is being funded somehow by researchers interested in pushing the time boundaries for organ donor preservation. There's a lot of fascinating research angles about the situation but it's still not ethical to do this to her body. I don't think ANYONE with a conscience would ever advocate for that. It's just her family deciding to keep her body functioning, but it's possible some of the support could be coming from interested scientists. What a horrible situation.

By the way, don't ever donate your remains to science. I've heard stories about medical school....

ETA: the Body Worlds exhibit was the creepiest thing i've ever experienced. Thankfully it was the one with all the specimens behind glass. I couldn't handle the open one. Anyway... nothing creepier than seeing a tattoo that was part of the person they sliced and preserved to show organ layout... it's a weird thing, somehow they turn the body into a plastic like substance. There were no facial features in the exhibit i went to, i couldn't handle that either. My friend who was interested in being a nurse asked me to go with her. It's true they don't smell. And one whole section of the exhibit was on lung disease, with a big bin of cigarette packs people got rid of while touring the exhibit.

[Rachel333]

I think we need different words now. I'm trying to agree with everyone that Jahi is gone. Her brain-stem died, and in every meaningful way that is death. No one ever comes back from brain-stem death and without a brain-stem her body cannot function on its own.

Someone can be pronounced dead without meeting the criteria for clinical death, as is the case with Jahi. Someone can also experience clinical death but come back from it (unlike brain-stem death, which is permanent). That's what people are talking about when you hear that someone died on the operating table and was brought back. Clinical death has a specific definition which isn't quite the same as "death" in, I suppose, sort of a social sense where someone is gone and never coming back. Interestingly recent research has shown that brain activity continues for a few moments after clinical death. There are cases too where someone can be clinically dead for quite a while if their body has been cooled (like in some cases of drowning) but resuscitated back to full health. There's a saying among doctors that "you're not really dead until you're warm and dead."

I disagree that we shouldn't talk about multiple ways of being dead. It's just a medical fact that death is not as easy to define as it once was and I've actually never seen that be a controversial statement before. Questions of spirituality and life after death are a whole different matter. I'll agree though that talking about Jahi being alive in any way is misleading because Jahi the person is gone. Jahi is not alive. Her body is a beating-heart cadaver, being kept alive long after she has died. This is a pretty important distinction as with organ donation (well, some types, with others it doesn't matter) you need someone who is dead but whose body is still physically alive. The person is gone, but the organs are still alive and can live in someone else's body many years more.

I really wasn't trying to disagree with anyone here since I absolutely agree with the conclusions everyone is making. Jahi is dead and it is just ghoulish for her family to pretend otherwise for well over a year now since her actual death.