Jahi McMath back in the news - Part 2

[DGayle]

Dolan wants the hearing postponed because the court appointed expert doesn't agree with the findings:

http://m.ksbw.com/news/expert-rejects-d ... -10-months

Apparently he's found some "experts" from other countries who've stated that she's alive based not on examining her, but on tests he's handed over to them that have apparently been confirmed to be wrongly administered. Makes you wonder why he had to look to doctors in other countries. There are none in the US willing to put their livelihoods on the line to declare a dead person to be alive.

[Mitz_]

What is more telling is that Jahi spent 10 months in a hospital in New Jersey and not one of those doctors have anything to say?

[Coco]

I really don't think this will get overturned, but if it does, I'd like to open a care center for people with devastating brain injuries. Talk about raking in [dirty] money....

As for the lawsuit coming to the hospital.... Don't worry, it's coming. The family doesn't have much to sue over right now. They can't file wrongful death because then they acknowledge she is dead. They are wrangling to get her back on state-paid care (where-ever that is, I suspect they will try in CA first, then try other places...) then sue the hospital for damages and to pay the bills. Currently there are no "bills" to pay... she is dead and being supported by donations. This "declare her alive" thing is just a set-up for the big show of a lawsuit.

Are these donations from a billionaire interested in brain study and research? That would make so much sense in explaining why this has gone on so long, if that were the case.

[browncoatslytherin]

Dolan wants the hearing postponed because the court appointed expert doesn't agree with the findings:

http://m.ksbw.com/news/expert-rejects-d ... -10-months

of course they don't agree! because she is indeed brain dead! good lord, see the signs, dude, there is no way any reputable expert is going to go along with this, and gods willing no court will allow any pseudo-experts to officially testify.

[Evilbad]

And HIPAA laws stop them from commenting, unless the family decides to allow it. Just gross.

[browncoatslytherin]

And HIPAA laws stop them from commenting, unless the family decides to allow it. Just gross.

there are ways around that. the court can issue a subpoena for the records or to have doctors testify, if the judge signs off on that. if the family's lawyers keeps on drawing it out, if i was a judge, i would go ahead on that just to get something on record.

[DGayle]

Are these donations from a billionaire interested in brain study and research? That would make so much sense in explaining why this has gone on so long, if that were the case.

New Jersey allows families to reject brain death as death on religious grounds. I suspect at least part of this is being paid for by the taxpayers there. If it's really all pure donations, why not have her in California?

[DGayle]

And HIPAA laws stop them from commenting, unless the family decides to allow it. Just gross.

If they could find an American doctor willing to speak out and say she's alive, they'd have him do that. They're stopping doctors from saying she's dead (though I'm not sure HIPAA laws applied to post-mortem testing, considering cause of death is public info), but they have every incentive there is to get a doctor to say she's alive, and not some foreign doctor who loses nothing my hopping up here, taking money, saying she's alive, and going back to Cuba (that's there they're trying to get docs from to say she's alive).

[browncoatslytherin]

If they could find an American doctor willing to speak out and say she's alive, they'd have him do that. They're stopping doctors from saying she's dead (though I'm not sure HIPAA laws applied to post-mortem testing, considering cause of death is public info), but they have every incentive there is to get a doctor to say she's alive, and not some foreign doctor who loses nothing my hopping up here, taking money, saying she's alive, and going back to Cuba (that's there they're trying to get docs from to say she's alive).

any information other than what is listed on the death certificate (which is the public record) has to be signed off on by the deceased's next of kin in order to release it. depending on the facility, there are different time frames for how long the patient has to have been dead in order to release records without getting any authorization from the next of kin (at my hospital, it's 50 years from the date of death, if i remember correctly. i've not had to worry about it so far lol those requests are very, very rare and are usually research related.)

*edited to add* of course, an authorization from the next of kin is not needed if a subpoena is issued for the records

[DGayle]

That applies for pre-death records. I don't think post-mortem testing is covered.

HIPAA extends after death for adults. If your spouse dies, you can't get the records. This has caused a problem in my family since we've got someone with an illness, and no way to find out more about it. The mom's birth dad is unknown, and without her records, no one can see if that's where the disease her son has comes from, or what the hell is going on. She was sick before her very sudden death, but kept it hidden, and no one knows what she was being seen for.

Once you die, family should be able to get the records of adults, no subpoena needed.

But regardless, I'm talking about the records after Jahi died. I'm not sure if there's anything to stop the doctors from talking about medical findings from after death.

[Stephanie66]

The taxayers would fund all of this Potentially decades and untold millions of dollars that could be going to medical care for people who are alive, or trying to find cancer cures, or even trying to find ways to preserve the brain and protect it against damage when something like this happens. But nope, they want to keep a dead person on the public dime, which would of course mean getting disability money and other money for her.

It would take MORE than 4 full-time nurses to attend to this one girl. That's at least a couple grand in nurses a year. Hospital rooms are easily $2k a day, just to be there. $730,000 for a year. We're looking at a cool mil without adding in any treatment at all. Private facilities cost more than public hospitals.

If a judge overturns her death, the precedent will bankrupt California. Every person who is brain dead could stay on life support forever, and if the family can receive disability cash for it, a lot of people would suddenly decide to keep dead people around.

If a person is institutionalized full time, the family would not get SSI. The SSI would go to the care facility. It's a tiny amount, but at least the family will not get money for her.

[bionicmlle]

I am guessing she is not eligible for any federal (SSI) benefits because she has a death certificate. So no matter what state she is in, her SSN would come up as deceased and unable to draw benefits.

[DGayle]

That's SSI. What about SSDI?

[browncoatslytherin]

That applies for pre-death records. I don't think post-mortem testing is covered.

HIPAA extends after death for adults. If your spouse dies, you can't get the records. This has caused a problem in my family since we've got someone with an illness, and no way to find out more about it. The mom's birth dad is unknown, and without her records, no one can see if that's where the disease her son has comes from, or what the hell is going on. She was sick before her very sudden death, but kept it hidden, and no one knows what she was being seen for.

Once you die, family should be able to get the records of adults, no subpoena needed.

But regardless, I'm talking about the records after Jahi died. I'm not sure if there's anything to stop the doctors from talking about medical findings from after death.

unless the office or facility has a stricter policy than the law (which they are allowed to have, my facility does have a couple of policies stricter than the minimum of the law) her next of kin should be able to sign a release. i've supplied records this way before for a patient, legally. adult patient was deceased, unmarried, no kids. his mother was able to sign a release and provide his death certificate to get his records.

[AmericanAmigo]

I find this so sad and without dignity. I don't know what to think of Jahi's mom except that she loves her daughter and she is not thinking straight at all. If it were my daughter, and my daughter was at Oakland Children's Hospital after being hit by a car, I would of course, want all the tests for brain function & a second opinion. I would not subject my loved one to this abuse of her body after she was gone. Its too sad. Who was Jahi really? What were her favorite things to do & see, her favorite movie? What made her laugh? The real memory of her life is being obscured by this tragedy of errors on the part of one judge and a lawyer that I do not trust.

[laura oz]

I find this so sad and without dignity. I don't know what to think of Jahi's mom except that she loves her daughter and she is not thinking straight at all. If it were my daughter, and my daughter was at Oakland Children's Hospital after being hit by a car, I would of course, want all the tests for brain function & a second opinion. I would not subject my loved one to this abuse of her body after she was gone. Its too sad. Who was Jahi really? What were her favorite things to do & see, her favorite movie? What made her laugh? The real memory of her life is being obscured by this tragedy of errors on the part of one judge and a lawyer that I do not trust.

A comment like this makes me sad that I can't "like" posts on mobile. I agree with your sentiments on Jahi's life, but more and more it seems that what's clouding her judgment is love for a pay day rather than grief or denial. I just don't think any of this is about Jahi anymore really. JMO

[browncoatslytherin]

A comment like this makes me sad that I can't "like" posts on mobile. I agree with your sentiments on Jahi's life, but more and more it seems that what's clouding her judgment is love for a pay day rather than grief or denial. I just don't think any of this is about Jahi anymore really. JMO

exactly.

but no one can really call her on it without being made out to look like a monster for "questioning a heartbroken mother just trying to look out for her daughter" against teh ebil dawktors. *eye roll*

[mirele]

*snipt*

So they get very excited when a case like Jahi Mcmath comes along, and evidently they do come along now and then but Jahi is a very interesting test subject for them because her brain can still be defined on an MRI, it didn't liquefy and they think she is producing some hormones which is pretty major for this situation.

If you look at the picture on the first page of this topic, you can see that her brain is traumatically damaged and is compacting. A normal brain does not look like Jahi McMath's brain. And this is less than a year after the operation.

What disturbs me is we don't know what these doctors are doing to Jahi's body. (As far as I am concerned, the girl is dead.) Mom may have all sorts of quacks parading through the girl's room, doing God knows what to her because they know they can bring her back. It's not going to happen.

I sat by my father's bed for six days last summer, watching him die and I would never wish it on anyone. Towards the end, I just wanted for him to be released from the body that had failed him. I don't understand why the McMath family is acting like this.

[DGayle]

The family says she's aware of what's going on. If you were aware of what's gong on around you, but couldn't even open your eyes or do more than an occasional twitch, would that not be hell to you?

[Blahblah]

I watched a documentary a few months ago of a new way of testing brain function by using functional MRI. It was being used for brain damaged or locked in people to see if they had conscious awareness.

They had mapped out brain activity to find out which areas fired up during certain activities (playing tennis, running, dancing, whatever). They then established that these areas fired up even when you think about those activities.

So, hey presto, hook up a brain damaged person to an MRI, give them explicit instructions that at a set signal they should think about playing tennis, and see if the appropriate brain area lights up.

The results were amazing and fairly conclusively showed whether these people had conscious awareness or not.

At this stage with Jahi they are trying to prove any sort of brain function, not even consciousness, so show me a functional MRI in comparison to a normal brain, show me some meaningful signs of brain activity and maybe there will be a valid argument. Until then, pointing at screen shots is meaningless.

[browncoatslytherin]

I watched a documentary a few months ago of a new way of testing brain function by using functional MRI. It was being used for brain damaged or locked in people to see if they had conscious awareness.

They had mapped out brain activity to find out which areas fired up during certain activities (playing tennis, running, dancing, whatever). They then established that these areas fired up even when you think about those activities.

So, hey presto, hook up a brain damaged person to an MRI, give them explicit instructions that at a set signal they should think about playing tennis, and see if the appropriate brain area lights up.

The results were amazing and fairly conclusively showed whether these people had conscious awareness or not.

At this stage with Jahi they are trying to prove any sort of brain function, not even consciousness, so show me a functional MRI in comparison to a normal brain, show me some meaningful signs of brain activity and maybe there will be a valid argument. Until then, pointing at screen shots is meaningless.

agreed.

problem is, there is likely no way to produce something like this, because all it would prove is that there is no meaningfuly brain activity. they sure aren't going to release any information that will hurt their case, which means they'll have to hedge the truth and the real truth isn't going to get out there unless someone acts on bringing it out (like a judge issuing a subpoena for any and all records concerning her hospitalization and testing done, especially from the facility she's at right now. i'm thinking if a brain dead dx can be not accepted by a family, the facility would consider her "alive").

[Toothfairy]

How long can they keep this going? Another year? 5 years? 10?

[Deist woman]

Jahi's mom had announced that "she has become a young woman" (had her first period). She wants the school to give Jahi a diploma. She wants Jahi to experience the normal life milestone events. Keep in mind, that Jahi's "level of function" is being defined by what her mother dictates based on what she INTERPRETS Jahi's reactions to mean. So, if Jahi is "alive", and is believed to be capable of achieving milestones, will we see "first boyfriend"? Prom date? Teen pregnancy? And then keep her alive to gestate the fetus, then have custody of the baby, and touching pictures of Mother, Daughter, Grandchild? There has been question as to whether there is a financial incentive in keeping Jahi alive. I would also wonder, if there is a control issue, as well. Jahi is a girl who will never argue with her mother, will never move out on her own, never develop a personality. And a baby would be an opportunity for the unconditional love of a small child.

Please don't think me an awful person for this thought entering my mind, but I have seen and heard enough things happening to helpless, vegetative women to find it entirely possible that eventually a "miracle" may allow a comatose girl to become pregnant; and judging by this case, the "miracle" would not be too closely investigated.

[Stephanie66]

That's SSI. What about SSDI?

She would have to have a work history or a deceased parent when she became disabled to get SSDI. Maybe her dad is dead, who knows? But...it would still go towards her care. Almost all of the time, a disabled minor gets SSI.

She isn't in the Social Security Death Index, which is odd. Maybe it hasn't updated yet?

[bluebird]

If she is in a facility any SS would go directly to them as her rep payee. Jahi would be allowed to keep 30.00 in a resident trust fund the rest going towards her cost of care. She can draw SSDI off a parents SS record once that parent retires or dies (18 and above) or if a parent were to die prior to her becoming 18 she would receive survivors benefits. There may be other provisions since she has a childhood disability...the SS laws can get complicated at best, there are probably others here more literate about SS than I am. If there is private money coming in does it go directly to the family or is there a trust account with a trustee who is responsible for dispersing funds to vendors, services, etc. Being provided for Jahi? I have followed this case from the get go and it is pretty gut wrenching on a number of levels. I have been in that families shoes and while I would not have personally chosen to keep Jahi on life support I am uncomfortable judging..to raw of a topic, so very tragic.