Jahi McMath back in the news - Part 2

[Firiel]

Maggie Mae, I thought your post was interesting and well-thought out.

If you are interesting in reading a blogger who (I think) has a really healthy approach to fat acceptance and health at every size, check out Michelle at fatnutritionist.com.

She a trained nutritionist, and she really advocates for intuitive eating-- eating what you want, when you want. It sounds like a recipe for disaster, but she also works with her clients to get over the food-based shame in our culture, the idea being that without all the cultural weight of "good" food and "bad" food, eventually, you will WANT to eat in a way that makes you FEEL good, not just for the moment but in general. Anyway, what she writes is thoughtful, interesting, and nuanced.

[Terrie]

I think we're overly attached to the number on the scale. I've always read the meaning of "health at any size" to be "Can this person do normal levels of activity without getting winded? Is their blood sugar good? How about their cholesterol? Yes? Great, they're healthy."

I've always been super skinny, but the truth is that I'm not in good shape and while I've gotten better about vegetables, I can't stand fruit. The scale may love me, but there are plenty of people who are on the heavy end of things that are much healthier than I am.

[Firiel]

I think we're overly attached to the number on the scale. I've always read the meaning of "health at any size" to be "Can this person do normal levels of activity without getting winded? Is their blood sugar good? How about their cholesterol? Yes? Great, they're healthy."

I've always been super skinny, but the truth is that I'm not in good shape and while I've gotten better about vegetables, I can't stand fruit. The scale may love me, but there are plenty of people who are on the heavy end of things that are much healthier than I am.

That's been my understanding about Health at Any Size, too.

[Blahblah]

That's been my understanding about Health at Any Size, too.

I'm a fatty. But my blood pressure is on the low side, my cholesterol is normal, and my blood sugar fine. Medically I am healthy by most measures except BMI. I eat fruit, veggies, lean meat, whole grains etc. but I also love to cook rich, tasty food. I bake cakes and I eat chocolate and lolllies (candy).

But I don't drink alcohol and compared to some of my skinnier friends I eat a very conservative amount of food.

So why am I fat? My real downfall is lack of exercise. I have an office based job with virtually no activity. I also have arthritic knees (I'm in my forties) that make anything except water based activity very painful. We have a pool at home which is great in the warmer weather but most of the year I'm stuck with paying for use of a pool at a gym or a fitness club. And at my size, the intimidation from all the fit gym types is humiliating. I need a gym where normal or overweight people can be all sweaty and wobbly in an environment that recognizes that you are trying, not a gym where people are all super fit and perfect already. Haven't found one yet.

[DGayle]

That's been my understanding about Health at Any Size, too.

This was my thought on what HAES meant, but a very large friend of mine says it means that every size is really a healthy size and that body size can't contribute to any health problems and that it is a medical lie that to fat-shame people and HAES is trying to dispel the myth that being fat can cause health problems because even skinny people can be unhealthy. She gets winded climbing the flight of stairs to my apartment and going on short walks, and her joints are having problems. But she says every size is healthy, and so do a growing number of my friends who are gaining weight and saying it won't really affect them, only the people who have to look at them in public.

That friend also thinks it should be illegal for doctors to weigh patients because that's just a subtle way of trying to shame people.

Who am I, a skinny person, to get to argue? So now I don't even know, and HAES is starting to sound like an excuse to not use self-control or exercise. So I just don't even know anymore. I'm just going to raise my kids to not eat entire boxes of Twinkies, and to listen when their bodies hurt or if they get too tired doing moderate activity. I'm less concerned about the number on the scale, but realistically, too much weight on a frame increases the odds of health problems, right?

[Burris]

This was my thought on what HAES meant, but a very large friend of mine says it means that every size is really a healthy size and that body size can't contribute to any health problems and that it is a medical lie that to fat-shame people and HAES is trying to dispel the myth that being fat can cause health problems because even skinny people can be unhealthy.

You're absolutely correct.

You and I are blunt. That's bound to cause friction. But I hope you might consider passing on some variation of my message - the words of a 300 lbs person who cares little if at all what people think of her appearance - to your friend. Before I get to those words, however, I'd like to explain how I came to believe as I do.

It is only a guess on my part but if your friend is anything like some of the heavier people I know, then she does recognize her excess carriage makes it more difficult for her to climb stairs; that it's hard on her knee joints; that it's hard on her heart.

But among the HAES crowd, she has found people who - well, presumably - won't judge her personality or value as a human being by the numbers on a scale.

If she is heavier than the "average obese person" - or even if she is not - she likely hears her share of mean and downright stupid remarks:

• "There are starving people in other countries." (This one is dumb for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that whereas fat people eat food, supermarkets are among the biggest Western wasters. We produce too much and serve it in large portions - and the global economic imbalance has nothing to do with whether a heavy person orders an extra large fries.)
  
  
• "You're costing taxpayers money." (Never mind that the fat person is likely also a taxpayer and a portion of her money goes towards people who die of lifestyle related conditions such as lung cancer caused by smoking or by cirrhosis of the liver by drinking or in car accidents for speeding or for failing to wear seat belts, or in bicycle accidents because they did not wear helmets and so on. Everyone has at least one bad habit that costs everyone else. The civil thing to do is in recognizing that everyone is flawed because everyone is human and then acting in a manner that reflects that belief.)
  
  
• "A lot of times it's hard for friends and family to discuss this sensitive subject, so I guess it falls to me, a stranger and fellow transit passenger, to point out you're quite overweight." (I cannot even begin to guess what the hell goes through the heads of people who believe they themselves are the first to "kindly" tell a heavy person that she is, in fact, overweight. For such an individual to speak thus in earnest, she'd have to believe (a) that the fat person's family never mentioned it and (b) that the fat person is just too damned stupid to have seen it for herself.)
  
  
• "You're gross to look at." (Too fucking bad. Look elsewhere; I'm sure all the thin ladies just love being eye-humped by you.)

That's just a sampling of the anti-fat idiocy - and it is idiocy - that exists.

I remember an incident - it must have been more than ten years ago, now, but I've not forgotten - when I went on a lunch break while working in an office building. I took the lift down nine floor, purchased something or other from one of the vendors, and then returned to the lift. A few floors up, the doors opened and a narrow man stepped in with his back to me. The first thing I noticed about him was how he held the lift doors open for about 45 seconds while he continued a conversation with one of his coworkers. He seemed to believe the world should just stop at his convenience. He confirmed my initial impression of him as a professional pain in the ass when, about half a second after he finally allowed the lift doors to close, he looked at me and at my lunch and said something to the point that, "You don't have to eat that. You could be healthy. There's no reason to do that to yourself."

I was actually speechless for a moment, stunned by his outrageous arrogance; first, of course, by his unwarranted belief that he had a God-given right to hold other people up while he chatted with coworkers - and I chose the term "coworkers" deliberately, because I find it hard to believe someone so obviously practiced at being a jackass could maintain friendships. And then, of course, there is the matter of his belief he had a right to castigate a total stranger - a stranger who waited patiently while he wasted her time - for what she eats or for what she weighs.

When the lift reached my floor, I'd finally regained my composure; I held the doors open while stepping out, turned to him, and told him in blunt terms what I thought of both his holding me up and his belief my weight was any of his business - and this here, what I just said, is a cleaned up version of what I said to him before I finally let go of the lift doors so he could reach his destination (where I'm sure his office-mates would be overjoyed at his return).

There's a big difference between someone - generally a friend, a loved one, or a physician - discussing your weight with you in genuine concern for your welfare and someone making a comment of the sort listed above.

Weight-based prejudice definitely exists (and it also "cuts both ways.")

I've been exceptionally lucky for these many years; if luck is apportioned, I'll never win the lottery or even more than a dollar or two on a scratch ticket.

Where my weight is concerned, I'm lucky it has not turned into diabetes or high blood pressure or heart disease. (But if I do not act on my weight, and if my husband does not act on his, our luck will run out.)

In my youth, I was strong, athletic, and fast (though I was always over my "ideal weight" even in the best shape). That oddity causes me to think "ideal weight" is actually at least a little bit different for everyone; that it, in the same way as an eyeglass prescription, depends on individual make-up. Certainly there must be broad parameters, such as that no one of my height and weight is a healthy size, but I suspect those are more elastic than the one-size-fits all chart often used to determine whether or not a person is technically obese.

My doctor recommends I lose about 40-50 KGs, which will take pressure off those of my joints that have been repaired: They weren't built to last 20 years under approximately 135 KGs (300 lbs) of weight. And if one of them fails, that will be a bad thing.

She gets winded climbing the flight of stairs to my apartment and going on short walks, and her joints are having problems. But she says every size is healthy, and so do a growing number of my friends who are gaining weight and saying it won't really affect them, only the people who have to look at them in public.

I can climb from the transit station two levels below to the street. I've never counted, but I assume this would be 70-80 steps. But I definitely get winded whilst younger and thinner people pass me with ease.

Being overweight - although I would quibble with just what the term should actually mean - is unhealthy. And I wonder how many larger people are embracing this wrong-headed idea that fat is not a health risk for the simple reason they're tired of idiots staring at them or taking pictures of them to plaster on fat-shaming sites such as 'People of Walmart.'

It's also correct that a person can be thin and still have an unhealthy diet and a sedentary lifestyle. Paired in tests of fitness against an active person who is, say, a size 16, I wouldn't be surprised to see the sedentary but thinner person losing by a wide margin.

Part of the reason there are so many heavy people in our society is the abundance of cheap, poor quality food coupled to an information based economy where most people spend hours a day at their desks.

In this way, obesity really is a social issue - notice I said "issue" and not "the fault of society" - but the way of treating that issue, by shaming individuals and groups of individuals, does nothing to solve the underlying problems and even less to convince these people that what you've said has merit and deserves a fair hearing.

That friend also thinks it should be illegal for doctors to weigh patients because that's just a subtle way of trying to shame people.

...so, to DGayle's friend, for what it's worth:

1) Yes, bad doctors exist. They may think their mean comments will shock patients into adopting a healthier lifestyle. In their arrogance, some of these doctors seem to believe they're the first persons ever to make a snide comment about an obese person's weight. The trick is to sift out genuine concern from mean-spirited bullshit.

2) There are sites online where people rate doctors. When I was looking for a GP, I used those sites to find someone who had a reputation for the humane treatment of his patients - and indeed he is precisely what the comments claim. He is also the man who suggests - when and only when the topic comes up - that I would feel better and be healthier if I were to lose 40-50 kgs. He is correct. When I was in good shape and and by necessity exercising, I could move quickly without effort and endure unfavourable conditions. Yes I have had a couple of joints reconstructed, but - or, more accurately, "and" - dropping the excess weight would be of great benefit to me.This is not because I care what people think of how I look; I do not. (People who do not know me personally believe this to be a sort of brag. People who know me have, at various times, expressed their surprise when they realized I meant it when I said I do not give a single fuck what people think of how I look.)

3) Patients have rights, and two of mine are (a) to say no to unwanted medical procedures and (b) to be treated as a human being by a person who swore an oath to do that.

4) Good doctors will also weigh you, however, for a baseline from which to work. They can use it to determine if you suddenly start gaining or dropping large amounts of weight - both of which could indicate a serious and potentially life-threatening medical condition.

Find a doctor, ask him or her outright what their view of weight and weight-loss are, and if their language is demeaning and dehumanizing, pick up and walk out. That's your right. The doctor is an important and highly trained person, usually, but he or she is also your employee in a sense. Your health is their business - but your health also includes your psychological make-up. If they ignore that by demeaning you, they suck at their jobs and you have every right to essentially fire them by finding a different doctor.

But it is NOT demeaning for them to warn you of the dangers that have been medically proven to be linked with obesity.

Frankly - and of course I do not know you, so this is a guess - I believe you avoid the scale because you yourself feel shame when others react negatively to your weight. But you actually have nothing to be ashamed of. Being obese is not a crime or a sin or a punishment; it's the result of several interconnected factors, some of which you can control. And no, it's not easy - at first; but it takes only a few weeks to form a habit and you''d be surprised, even as my husband and I were, at just how terrible some of your favourite "bad" foods taste after a few weeks without them.

Don't worry about the weight; consider instead the exercise and how to incorporate it into your day. Forget the scale for awhile and just work out. Eating healthy foods and exercising are, with rare exceptions, the keys to losing weight.

My husband and I are learning this, but not from fat-shamers: their attempts to convert us failed miserably, and - with me, at least - usually ended in my telling them to go fuck themselves with something sharp and pointy.

I'll add that there was a time, before someone who is quite thin told me it hurt her to hear, when I'd make comments about how someone really slight of build should "eat a sandwich" or something. It honestly didn't occur to me - I can be slow to get messages like this one - that a person whom I saw as the social ideal could be hurt by comments about a weight I secretly envied.

And while I, being far from a saint, sometimes make the same mistakes more than once, that day, years ago now, was the last time I ever recall having made a deliberately disparaging remark to a thin person merely for her being thin. It was unfair of me and cruel, and I did not see it for what it was until someone flatly told me: "It hurts when people say those things."

You would think I, at my weight, would have realized the truth applies to everyone regardless of size but it simply did not occur to me. Another lesson learned; another incursion into what is sometimes my vast ignorance. (And that is not false humility; I've done enough damage to recognize and admit to flat out pig-ignorance sometimes.)

The message should NOT be Health At Every Size; it should be Respect At Every Size.

****

Who am I, a skinny person, to get to argue? So now I don't even know, and HAES is starting to sound like an excuse to not use self-control or exercise.

Why would she need to excuse herself? What has she done that requires an excuse you'd accept?

If you really are her friend, then it's not an argument at all for you to point out a concern - unless you decide to add, "...and HAES is starting to sound like an excuse to not use self-control or exercise."

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Just to add to the very well-written and thought-out posts by Burris, I too am quite overweight, and have recently begun experiencing a doctor's "well, have you tried losing weight?" answers to my health concerns. I am a recovering bulimic. I still binge, but only occasionally purge (hurts my teeth, thank gawd, which stops me most of the time). I was weighed yesterday at a doctor's appointment (I have idiopathic thyroiditis, and am having it removed), and topped out at 240 (I am 5'9'). I am also Bipolar (BPII, to be exact), and have had multiple Major Depressive episodes in the past ten years (perhaps not "severe," based on symptoms, but serious enough for me to lose jobs, friends, relationships, treat it with alcohol, etc etc).

I have been to two psychiatrists (remember, I am bipolar), who recommended I "lose weight" during the first couple of sessions. One suggested I simply stop eating. The other said my panic attacks (a function of mixed episodes of depression and hypomania, which cause a great deal of dysphoria) would lessen if I lost weight, because I wouldn't be so "self-conscious." I saw a therapist for three sessions a few months ago, who gave her un-asked for opinion (I was coming out of a Major Depressive episode that lasted nearly a year, I had many life stressors and was not properly medicated at the time, blah blah blah) that I needed to "walk farther" (I walk my dogs daily) and change my diet. I was there because I had FINALLY felt well enough to seek help. I need to be able to negotiate a job interview and go out in public, we were not meeting because of my weight.

I can vouch for Zyprexxa, otherwise a wonderful drug, giving bottomless hunger. Jesus Christ, I am not the healthiest eater, but even I am not consistently eating FOUR DAYS WORTH OF GROCERIES in one evening after I take my meds. I took it for a month, because I had to, HAD TO, get some sleep (was waking up multiple times every single night with nightmares, waking into a panic attack). I take a different drug now to help me sleep, but I needed to see first if the side effects would lessen over time.

I can also attest to shitty sleep leading to fatigue and hunger - I have apnea, caused by an obstruction (my enlarged thyroid). I've gained nearly 100 pounds in 6 years, and have, for the past two years, been fighting tooth and nail to get the diseased half of my thyroid out of my body (it became visibly enlarged in my neck in June of 2013). I went from grad school to being largely unemployed, and have the lovely obamacare, so it's been a fight to get anything done.

Do the "nutritionists" on here understand that, once you're overweight, you need only eat a "maintenance" level of calories to stay that way? If thin people maintain at 2000 calories a day, so too do grossly overweight people. You don't need to gorge on cheeseburgers to continue to be 300 pounds, plus, to exercise, you need to contend with shortness of breath, joint problems, and general pain. I had a nurse tell me how she started running, and the weight was melting off. She was maybe 160. I am 240, a 40 H bra size (good luck finding a sports bra), and have congenitally bad joints. Thanks, running is not for me at this weight.

It's not impossible to lose weight, but I've had it with people that say "oh, it's easy - calories in, calories out!" You try swimming laps or surfing with joint pain, back pain, exercise-induced asthma, and chronic fatigue from shitty sleep. You try eating veggies and salads for a month, and losing only 9 pounds. Stop concern-trolling us. 28 year old me (I'm 35 now) was once one of you, but I've seen the light. Leave us alone, unless you're seriously ready to listen. It is NOT that easy!

[Rachel333]

If thin people maintain at 2000 calories a day, so too do grossly overweight people.

Sort of true; the more you weigh, the more you do need to eat to maintain that weight. A thin person and an overweight person will need different amounts of calories to maintain their weight. (For example, a sedentary 25-year-old 5'4'' woman will need 2250-2450 calories per day to maintain her weight at 300 lbs and 1300-1500 to maintain at 100 lbs.)

But it's definitely true that you can't tell anyone's current eating habits by what they weigh.

[Pennyrose]

Hi all, delurking :D

While I don't go agree with every aspect of the fat acceptance movements, I really appreciate that they are chipping away at the common stereotype of a fat person, and the social-acceptability of being unkind (if not downright rude and harassing) to someone just because of weight. We don't name-call others who make health choices we don't agree with (smokers for example) or those with health conditions that affected their appearance. Those of us who are heavy deserve to be treated just as well as we would treat anyone else.

Like a poster above, overeating wasn't how I gained weight. I ate similarly to my thin siblings, but I have health issues (asthma, allergies, bad joints, and a tendency to faint when overheated) and am not active. Starting in childhood, when my knee issues cropped up, I gained a bit every year until I was huge.

Loosing it seemed impossible. All the books, tapes and plans I looked at over the last couple decades had food I couldn't eat, exercises I couldn't regularly do, or just plain didn't work. Surgery didn't seem like a good idea either since I didn't overeat (well, not by volume of food, but yes in calories exceeding expenditure).

I gave up for a looooong time, until a couple years ago when I realized I was 350lb, my knees were getting worse, and I needed to do Something about it. I was still at a loss as to what though.

Around that time I started reading those 'how I lost it' articles in places like huff post, yahoo, people, etc. In them I kept seeing a few apps (MFP for one) and forums mentioned. I checked them out and joined a couple places. I almost didn't use them. I hate change and I'm a perfectionist. So I had to fight the urge to just maintain the status quo, and be OK with failing. Eventually I decided I could try for a bit, or not, and either way a year would pass and I could either have at least tried to loose the weight, or be in exactly the same position if not a bit worse off from getting heavier. So I tried. And I'm still trying. I succeed on more days then not and am down 80lb so far without exercising regularly (swam last summer, and I play with my dog and run around the house a bit, but that has been about it).

I wanted to post because what a couple of you have written has reminded me of myself from 2 years ago. That feeling of others not really knowing what you are going through. Of wanting to be healthier but not knowing what to do that will actually help, and feeling unsupported by the popular programs and overly simplistic suggestions to just eat less and exercise. And most particularly the frustration because it's not as easy as others claim.

It isn't easy. But on this side of 80lb down I can say it's possible. I don't have a magic how-to solution (and I think the solutions look a bit different for everyone anyway), but I can tell you some of the things that are helping me and might help you:

- Think about how you best approach change, and use that to help you plan how you will approach weight loss. For example some people are all-or-nothing, they commit fully and never go back. Some are gradual changers, adjusting over time. Some have to make an item off limits and never have it again to feel secure in that they won't slip up, some can indulge now and then and get back on track.

- Be kind to yourself, be forgiving. Plans don't always work, goals aren't always met. Cake happens. Too-tired-to-cook pizza orders happen. It's OK, there is always tomorrow.

- When you decide on your goals for the weight loss progress you'd like to see, try to be OK with small increments of progress and pick a low and easily reached target. TV shows and books make it seem like you could be thin almost overnight ("loose 10lb in a week!" and that sort of thing), but that isn't healthy or realistic. A lot of months I only loose 1-4lb. Not expecting huge losses every week has helped me keep from feeling like a failure.

- When it comes to foods to give up, cut back on, or eat often, try to be realistic with your diet for the life you plan to live after you loose the weight. I let myself have treats on holidays because I can't see myself never having cake again, or apple pie at thanksgiving, and so on. I plan in the occasional treat. I have popcorn at the movies. I have months where I have a bit of candy almost every day. I tried to give healthy breakfasts a shot, but I hate things like smoothies and oatmeal, so I have a buttered toasted bagel.

There is more to it then that, but those decisions are where you start. From there it gets a it easier to identify the next steps you want to take that will work with your goals and how you best approach changes.

As for the resources I use, I don't want to link dump on you all and get into more details then you might want related to how to use them, what I have tried, etc. So if you want to know more about the sites and apps I use, feel free to shoot me a PM, I'm happy to share them. And happy to buddy up with anyone who wants a supportive cheerleader. I still have over a 100lb to go, so I'll be active on the main app I use for at least the next couple of years.

(This is far more personal then I thought I'd get in my first post, by the by. I was sure something in one of the dugger baby threads would have gotten me out of lurkdom first, lol)

(edited to fix a few typos)

[DGayle]

Burris, if she doesn't want to exercise or try to control what she eats, she doesn't have to, but she also doesn't need to try using the belief that there's no such this as too much weight and that every body size really is perfectly healthy as an excuse for it. Don't want to do those things? Fine. Just own your decisions instead of trying to come up with reasons. (It's funny though that she often tells me it's not healthy to be the size I am, and that I need to eat more. But I digress. FWIW, I'm down over 150 pounds, so have been on both sides of the coin.)

Just my big concerns with the HAES movement is how it's gone from a movement about how to be as healthy as you can regardless of size, and morphed into something that is saying that there's no such thing as being overweight and that it's a lie that a body can be unhealthy or harmed because of weight. Burris brought you the great example of how joints aren't meant to last 20 years under so much weight.

Proud of who you are and your size? Great! I'm all for that. I'm just worried that trying to conceal real risks means people won't make informed choices because they don't know. On the other side of the coin, I'm also concerned that people think being thin means being automatically healthy. No, it doesn't. You might not have the joint issues or other risks of too much weight on your frame, but thinness doesn't guarantee a strong heart or safe cholesterol level.

[NoneandDoneinCali]

Hi all, delurking :D

While I don't go agree with every aspect of the fat acceptance movements, I really appreciate that they are chipping away at the common stereotype of a fat person, and the social-acceptability of being unkind (if not downright rude and harassing) to someone just because of weight. We don't name-call others who make health choices we don't agree with (smokers for example) or those with health conditions that affected their appearance. Those of us who are heavy deserve to be treated just as well as we would treat anyone else.

Like a poster above, overeating wasn't how I gained weight. I ate similarly to my thin siblings, but I have health issues (asthma, allergies, bad joints, and a tendency to faint when overheated) and am not active. Starting in childhood, when my knee issues cropped up, I gained a bit every year until I was huge.

Loosing it seemed impossible. All the books, tapes and plans I looked at over the last couple decades had food I couldn't eat, exercises I couldn't regularly do, or just plain didn't work. Surgery didn't seem like a good idea either since I didn't overeat (well, not by volume of food, but yes in calories exceeding expenditure).

I gave up for a looooong time, until a couple years ago when I realized I was 350lb, my knees were getting worse, and I needed to do Something about it. I was still at a loss as to what though.

Around that time I started reading those 'how I lost it' articles in places like huff post, yahoo, people, etc. In them I kept seeing a few apps (MFP for one) and forums mentioned. I checked them out and joined a couple places. I almost didn't use them. I hate change and I'm a perfectionist. So I had to fight the urge to just maintain the status quo, and be OK with failing. Eventually I decided I could try for a bit, or not, and either way a year would pass and I could either have at least tried to loose the weight, or be in exactly the same position if not a bit worse off from getting heavier. So I tried. And I'm still trying. I succeed on more days then not and am down 80lb so far without exercising regularly (swam last summer, and I play with my dog and run around the house a bit, but that has been about it).

I wanted to post because what a couple of you have written has reminded me of myself from 2 years ago. That feeling of others not really knowing what you are going through. Of wanting to be healthier but not knowing what to do that will actually help, and feeling unsupported by the popular programs and overly simplistic suggestions to just eat less and exercise. And most particularly the frustration because it's not as easy as others claim.

It isn't easy. But on this side of 80lb down I can say it's possible. I don't have a magic how-to solution (and I think the solutions look a bit different for everyone anyway), but I can tell you some of the things that are helping me and might help you:

- Think about how you best approach change, and use that to help you plan how you will approach weight loss. For example some people are all-or-nothing, they commit fully and never go back. Some are gradual changers, adjusting over time. Some have to make an item off limits and never have it again to feel secure in that they won't slip up, some can indulge now and then and get back on track.

- Be kind to yourself, be forgiving. Plans don't always work, goals aren't always met. Cake happens. Too-tired-to-cook pizza orders happen. It's OK, there is always tomorrow.

- When you decide on your goals for the weight loss progress you'd like to see, try to be OK with small increments of progress and pick a low and easily reached target. TV shows and books make it seem like you could be thin almost overnight ("loose 10lb in a week!" and that sort of thing), but that isn't healthy or realistic. A lot of months I only loose 1-4lb. Not expecting huge losses every week has helped me keep from feeling like a failure.

- When it comes to foods to give up, cut back on, or eat often, try to be realistic with your diet for the life you plan to live after you loose the weight. I let myself have treats on holidays because I can't see myself never having cake again, or apple pie at thanksgiving, and so on. I plan in the occasional treat. I have popcorn at the movies. I have months where I have a bit of candy almost every day. I tried to give healthy breakfasts a shot, but I hate things like smoothies and oatmeal, so I have a buttered toasted bagel.

There is more to it then that, but those decisions are where you start. From there it gets a it easier to identify the next steps you want to take that will work with your goals and how you best approach changes.

As for the resources I use, I don't want to link dump on you all and get into more details then you might want related to how to use them, what I have tried, etc. So if you want to know more about the sites and apps I use, feel free to shoot me a PM, I'm happy to share them. And happy to buddy up with anyone who wants a supportive cheerleader. I still have over a 100lb to go, so I'll be active on the main app I use for at least the next couple of years.

(This is far more personal then I thought I'd get in my first post, by the by. I was sure something in one of the dugger baby threads would have gotten me out of lurkdom first, lol)

(edited to fix a few typos)

Hey Penny, welcome! Congrats on losing 80 pounds - that is a HUGE accomplishment! I like reading about your weight loss journey, it does give me hope. My body still remembers being a size 8, and it is such a huge bummer when I try to do something active I've always loved (I was a competitive swimmer and diver, backpacking overnight, etc), and I can just feel how off my center of gravity is. I tried surfing again last summer, and couldn't pull myself up on the board - not going to lie, I went home and cried (in my defense, I was still in a depressive episode). I'm hoping once my thyroid is out next month (it functions okay, but is literally obstructing my airway, especially at night), that I'll have a little more energy and motivation. Regardless, I am going to keep in mind your suggestions.

I think with the fat acceptance movement, people should be honest about their health concerns. My heart/lungs are still healthy, my cholesterol and BP are normal, but like I said, I can't do active things and just generally feel physically shitty. So the main objective should be for the general public to stop being RUDE, for the medical field not to make assumptions/suggest living in pain for 6 months to lose enough weight to get treatment for a chronic condition (this hadn't affected me, but my father has joint issues that his doctor flat out refuses to treat because it is exacerbated by weight ... which is maintained by inability to exercise ... ad infinitum). I am going to side eye anyone that says they are perfectly healthy at my weight. But that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, should feel hideous, or less worthy, or less deserving of quality medical treatment.

Congratulations again!!! That is a TON of weight!

[Burris]

Burris, if she doesn't want to exercise or try to control what she eats, she doesn't have to, but she also doesn't need to try using the belief that there's no such this as too much weight and that every body size really is perfectly healthy as an excuse for it. Don't want to do those things? Fine. Just own your decisions instead of trying to come up with reasons.

I don't know that she's being entirely forward with you when she claims to believe her weight has no effect on her health - especially in light of her hypocrisy regarding your weight:

It's funny though that she often tells me it's not healthy to be the size I am, and that I need to eat more.

...

Just my big concerns with the HAES movement is how it's gone from a movement about how to be as healthy as you can regardless of size, and morphed into something that is saying that there's no such thing as being overweight and that it's a lie that a body can be unhealthy or harmed because of weight.

I'm sure some people really are that deluded, but it's hard for me to believe the majority of HAESers believe in every weight is healthy rather than in attempting to maximize health at every weight. (Those two things are nearly opposites.)

Burris brought you the great example of how joints aren't meant to last 20 years under so much weight.

It's true of all weight-bearing joints, in any person, but mine are unique in that the interior of my left leg is a metal miracle cobbled together by a Muslim surgeon.

(ASIDE: The mercy they showed in saving my life and limb changed me; it burned through my mind as a fire would, destroying most of the deadfall and making room for new growth. I knew immediately whatever happened after that, whatever dumbass mistakes and arguments I'd make - and God damn it have I ever done some stupid shit, including certain arguments here - whatever fool I'd be, that mercy worked in the same way as cruelty; it grew as it was shared. It is limitless. It has power.)

Proud of who you are and your size? Great! I'm all for that. I'm just worried that trying to conceal real risks means people won't make informed choices because they don't know.

I agree with you on this.

On the other side of the coin, I'm also concerned that people think being thin means being automatically healthy. No, it doesn't. You might not have the joint issues or other risks of too much weight on your frame, but thinness doesn't guarantee a strong heart or safe cholesterol level.

I agree.

[Buzzard]

I fell down a rabbit hole after someone compared Bobby Kristina to Jahi, linking to this site.

kesselrunin12parsecs.tumblr.com/post/91275477091/mother-of-the-year

HOLY SHIT

It has all kinds of pictures from the mother's instagram, including tons of pics of Jahi not looking so hot. The author also indicates that some of the pictures have been edited or that they put makeup on her to make her look less dead.

I have a lot of concern for the other children. There is a ruler with a child's name on it for his "ass only." A shot of another child who was suspended for choking a classmate because she misses her mom, and another child's graduation robe emblazoned with "team jahi" and "jahi will rise" on it. Cant these kids have ANYTHING that is their own?

She solicits donations and goes out of wine, steak, and lobster... oh, and shoes... and Michael Koors bags for her and a daughter

The rocket scientist posts phone numbers and asks the internet to "blow up" phones, especially the ICU... She also does everything she can to disrupt the hospital, like bringing crawfish to the waiting room for dinner to "stank it up."

The lack of class here is incredible.

[sparkles]

Every time someone breathes life into this thread—which is more than can be said for Jahi—I hope that it will be because the person who birthed her finally let her go. I should know better by now. Sigh.

Isn't there some kind of law against desecrating a corpse?

[Buzzard]

Every time someone breathes life into this thread—which is more than can be said for Jahi—I hope that it will be because the person who birthed her finally let her go. I should know better by now. Sigh.

Isn't there some kind of law against desecrating a corpse?

You would think so... I cant believe people are still giving them money

[DGayle]

That link has me horrified. The courts need to step in. She's admitting to a lot of drinking and driving, shitting parenting that may be illegal, desecrating a corpse, and doing her best to incite others to harm the hospital.

[Toothfairy]

You would think so... I cant believe people are still giving them money

You can't be serious

[Chowder Head]

Just have mercy. Her poor siblings.

[Buzzard]

You can't be serious

Yup, check out her gofundme page. She's not pulling in what she was, but money is money.

[Burris]

Every time someone breathes life into this thread—which is more than can be said for Jahi—I hope that it will be because the person who birthed her finally let her go. I should know better by now. Sigh.

Isn't there some kind of law against desecrating a corpse?

I do too. Every time this page reaches the top again after is has sank in the ratings for awhile I hope it's because Jahi has finally been allowed to die entirely, rather than just in bits and pieces. I'm glad Jahi is brain dead, so she cannot feel any of what would be the horror of that half-life.

The most charitable picture of her mother is that of a woman who fed her child burger bits after major throat surgery in an act that may very well have accidentally led to the child's death - and now she can't live with it, so she drinks, she lashes out, she tries to buy some degree of happiness, and of course she will not bury the corpse of her child for so long as blood flows through Jahi's veins and oxygen reaches her lungs.

I know guilt: It can turn up in some of the most unusual - and sometimes tasteless - ways.

I hope a day comes when one of Jahi's caregivers simply goes into that room and ends this nightmare. (Since Jahi is legally dead, could the person who shut the machines down be charged with murder?)

[Trynn]

I don't know, but I know if they did they wouldn't be the first person who's decided to end a terminal patients suffering more quicklh

[Burris]

I don't know, but I know if they did they wouldn't be the first person who's decided to end a terminal patients suffering more quicklh

She's not a terminal patient: Jahi McMath is literally and actually dead. Her brain, whatever remains of it, no longer functions on any level. She has a death certificate.

She's always swaddled in blankets in those pictures because she doesn't have the brain matter to regulate her body temperature. Most of her is hidden. Her hands are deforming. What little of her is viable has no more muscle tone. Her family hides her eyes. They hide her lips. They hide her nails. They hide her, wholly.

Her body is kept from decomposing - although not wholly successfully - by the machinery that maintains her mother's illusion this child is still alive when she is not.

This girl is dead and has been for a year(?); She is not alive. No part of what made her an individual remains in this world and nor will it ever be restored.

Jahi's family - including what I believe may be her guilt-ridden mother - would all be better off by ending this and returning this child to the earth.

What they are doing here is wrong, and the people who encourage them are - in some cases - not doing this out of concern for the family but for purely political reasons. Or out of medical curiosity. Either way, this should have ended long ago.

[Trynn]

Oh I know she's dead, I was just trying to draw a comparison. Maybe next time I should wait till the cold meds wear off first.

[bluebird]

Jahi's mother fed her burger bits after surgery, for real? How did I miss that piece of info or is it new? I remember talk of it but thought she only got a popsicle. Wow, sort of puts a new spin on this situation for me. Came here hoping (again) that Jahi had been set free.

[Maggie Mae]

I think it's just the normal game of telephone. She woke up, asked for a burger, they gave her a Popsicle instead.

I do wish they would let her go. Poor girl.