On FB - How many bunk beds can you stack?

[RandomTrivia]

This popped up on my Facebook wall today - bunk bed discussions.

https://www.facebook.com/householdmanag ... 2861705904

One of the pictures is a triple-bunk, and I keep waiting for fundies to show up. Who's the one with the kid-warehouse? More pictures in the comments, along with admiration, and a lot of discussion about stupid gov't rules that won't let boys and girls share a room, and how many kids you can cram in one bedroom.

The blog/website overall is pretty sane, but she went down the essential-oils-are-awesome path a week or two ago and I thought about unsubscribing.

[Coco]

Bunk beds! My family had the metal ones, with a mattress on the floor underneath the bottom bunk that was pulled out at night. So a total of six beds in one room, and there was only extra space between them for an electric piano and a dresser.

The biggest problem imo with bunkbeds is that often it's the kids' only personal "space" - place to do homework/schoolwork, put art on the wall, read. And often bunkbeds are too low to sit up in properly. Triple bunks in a room with average height ceilings would be terribly scrunched. Overcrowding is a bad thing for kids' growth.

Those metal ones are what the Duggars had too, in their little house, iirc from the first special, when the kids are talking about chores. Jessa is on the top bunk and Jill is hunched over trying to sit on the bottom bunk. The thing about metal ones is that they have bars to support the mattresses above, and some of my siblings would do "earthquake" poking their feet inbetween the bars to the person trying to sleep on top. (We had inexpensive mattresses that were bendy.) Also my littlest siblings would play monkey, swinging from the bars by their hands. Every piece of furniture in a crowded house becomes a playset. :lol:

At least the beds in the FB pictures were real beds, not like the warehouse shelving one fundie family used. :angry-banghead:

[DGayle]

I think it's sad when kids are deprived of personal space and are told it's normal.

[Mama Mia]

This popped up on my Facebook wall today - bunk bed discussions.

https://www.facebook.com/householdmanag ... 2861705904

One of the pictures is a triple-bunk, and I keep waiting for fundies to show up. Who's the one with the kid-warehouse? More pictures in the comments, along with admiration, and a lot of discussion about stupid gov't rules that won't let boys and girls share a room, and how many kids you can cram in one bedroom.

The blog/website overall is pretty sane, but she went down the essential-oils-are-awesome path a week or two ago and I thought about unsubscribing.

I keep hearing about government laws about children of the opposite sex not sharing a room -- but where is this actually an actual law? And in what circumstances? i.e: is it a local housing occupancy ordinance? Or a local rule for subsidized housing? Or something just individual landlord gives as a reason? Because if someone decided to fight it, I don't see how it would possibly stand.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

In America it would only apply to a foster care situation where they do have those rules or possibly a divorce/custody case where a parent could argue they are better able up provide because the other parent has an unacceptable bedding situation.

[Ivycoveredtower]

I keep hearing about government laws about children of the opposite sex not sharing a room -- but where is this actually an actual law? And in what circumstances? i.e: is it a local housing occupancy ordinance? Or a local rule for subsidized housing? Or something just individual landlord gives as a reason? Because if someone decided to fight it, I don't see how it would possibly stand.

So from what I could find. it's mostly a foster care thing. At least in my state I found a rule that said no foster children of the opposite gender could share a room past the age of five. I do know that I had a cousin who was renting a house once though and got in trouble for having her daughter and son sharing a room, they are a year apart. So yes I think there are some renters rules out there about this, but from what I can find from a quick google search if you own the home and are not a foster parent it's not an issue. That could very state to state though.

[Mama Mia]

So from what I could find. it's mostly a foster care thing. At least in my state I found a rule that said no foster children of the opposite gender could share a room past the age of five. I do know that I had a cousin who was renting a house once though and got in trouble for having her daughter and son sharing a room. they are a year apart. so yes I think there are some renters rules out there. from what I can find if you own the home and are not a foster parent it's not an issue. That could very state to state though.

Yeah, I would so fight that if I was a renter. That kind of discrimination and classism makes me bonkers. When doing advocate work with poor families I would occasionally get some CPS worker insisting opposite sex kids needed separate rooms to be returned home --- um ,no. Not unless the CPS worker was willing to pony up the extra $800 a month the upgrade would cost! Forever.

[Jana814]

I think it's sad when kids are deprived of personal space and are told it's normal.

Have to agree w/ u. I only have 1 sister & we always had r own rooms.

[polecat]

I think it's sad when kids are deprived of personal space and are told it's normal.

From an anthropological pov, it is entirely normal to bed- or room-share, not just during infancy but throughout childhood.

"It is only in industrialized Western societies such as those in North America and some parts of Europe that sleep has become a private affair. The West, in fact, stands out from the rest of humanity in the treatment of its children during sleep. In one study of 186 nonindustrial societies, children sleep in the same bed as their parents in 46 percent of the nonindustrial cultures, and in a separate bed but in the same room in an additional 21 percent. In other words, in 67 percent of the cultures around the world, children sleep in the company of others."

libaware.economads.com/sleepwithme.php

[Palimpsest]

Yeah, I would so fight that if I was a renter. That kind of discrimination and classism makes me bonkers. When doing advocate work with poor families I would occasionally get some CPS worker insisting opposite sex kids needed separate rooms to be returned home --- um ,no. Not unless the CPS worker was willing to pony up the extra $800 a month the upgrade would cost! Forever.

OK. People may be thinking of the federal Fair Housing Act. The original intent was to stop landlords discriminating against families with children. Basically it means that a landlord can't refuse to rent to families with children - even many, many children. OTOH, HUD (Housing and Urban Development) has guidelines to prevent overcrowding decided almost case by case. So a specific rental unit may only be approved for 2 person per bedroom occupancy (bedroom defined as having a closet and a window.) A landlord can then refuse to rent a 3 bedroom unit to a family of 10 on the grounds of violating over-crowding laws. A landlord could also move to evict a family that had 6 children in a one bedroom apartment.

That's all Federal though (minimal standard) and individual states may have more restrictive housing policies regarding occupancy, minimum square footage per head, and include gender separated bedrooms for minors.

Again AFAIK, people can cram as many children or extended family as they want into a house they own. Gross overcrowding would only come into play during a CPS investigation, or assessments for fostering or adoption or, as someone said, during a custody hearing. I've only really heard an insistence by CPS that a child have his/her own dedicated bed and storage space in what is actually a bedroom (as opposed to closet, attic, unheated garage or unfinished cellar). Some states and caseworkers may be more restrictive than others though.

[polecat]

OK. People may be thinking of the federal Fair Housing Act. The original intent was to stop landlords discriminating against families with children. Basically it means that a landlord can't refuse to rent to families with children - even many, many children. OTOH, HUD (Housing and Urban Development) has guidelines to prevent overcrowding decided almost case by case. So a specific rental unit may only be approved for 2 person per bedroom occupancy (bedroom defined as having a closet and a window.) A landlord can then refuse to rent a 3 bedroom unit to a family of 10 on the grounds of violating over-crowding laws. A landlord could also move to evict a family that had 6 children in a one bedroom apartment.

That's all Federal though (minimal standard) and individual states may have more restrictive housing policies regarding occupancy, minimum square footage per head, and include gender separated bedrooms for minors.

Again AFAIK, people can cram as many children or extended family as they want into a house they own. Gross overcrowding would only come into play during a CPS investigation, or assessments for fostering or adoption or, as someone said, during a custody hearing. I've only really heard an insistence by CPS that a child have his/her own dedicated bed and storage space in what is actually a bedroom (as opposed to closet, attic, unheated garage or unfinished cellar). Some states and caseworkers may be more restrictive than others though.

This probably depends on municipality. When we bought our house, we had to get an occupancy permit, which states that we may have no more than six people living here at any time (3-bedroom house).

That said, the people who owned the house before us had nine kids, so there were 11 people crammed into here until all the kids grew up and moved away (this was before there were limits, I suppose). The adult kids (that sounds weird) had an awful lot of fond memories about the house, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how they all fit.

[ILoveJellybeans]

I don't have a problem with kids sharing a room-it happens, not everyone can afford a house with a bedroom for each child-especially if you have a large family, it would be so hard to get houses that big.

But if you have to resort to triple bunk beds to cram as many children in as possible, you obviously need a new house. Id say no more than two to a room, or three if it is a big room. Every child needs a proper bed, and a space for their personal belongings, as well as bedroom floor space to play in, and there needs to be time where they can be alone in their room for peace and quiet-which wont work if you have 9 kids sharing a huge bedroom like the Duggars do.

The rules in my area for how many people can live in a house is two people per bedroom, plus one-which allows for three people to share, but only in one room (presumably the biggest one in the house, it would be unfair to take the biggest room for two and cram three into the smallest room. Also babies and toddlers only count as half-although that makes sense, as it is very likely they will spend most of their time downstairs being supervised by a parent at that age, and will possibly be sleeping in their parents room, either in a crib or co sleeping.

Also its only a bedroom if it has a window. You cant just cram a kid into a large closet and claim they have their own room. Or under the stairs. I don't think it would be allowed to use the bathroom for sleeping either, but I don't think they presumed anyone would want to.

[thoughtful]

One of the pictures is a triple-bunk, and I keep waiting for fundies to show up. Who's the one with the kid-warehouse?

That was Kim and Perry Coghlan, inashoe blog, formerly of Vision Forum.

[Palimpsest]

This probably depends on municipality. When we bought our house, we had to get an occupancy permit, which states that we may have no more than six people living here at any time (3-bedroom house).

That said, the people who owned the house before us had nine kids, so there were 11 people crammed into here until all the kids grew up and moved away (this was before there were limits, I suppose). The adult kids (that sounds weird) had an awful lot of fond memories about the house, but for the life of me, I can't figure out how they all fit.

I agree. There is a lot of variation and enforcing whatever occupancy permits and codes are in place is pretty impossible. Overcrowding only really comes up if LE, Fire and Emergency services, or CPS visit the home. I think occupancy is usually decided by square footage and outside egress in cases of emergency. HUD does have a limit on square footage by I can't remember what it is.

To the bolded: My late in-laws had a family of 10 living next door in an identical 1,500 sq. ft. 3 bedroom house. They had 1 set of bunk beds on the enclosed and divided off by screens front porch, 1 set of bunk beds screened off in the "den" for the boys and bunk beds in each of the 2 smaller 8X10 bedrooms for the 4 girls. They all seemed to grow up very well adjusted and safely but I felt claustrophobic whenever I thought about it.

Mama Mia, I hear your frustration but an extra thought: CPS can be very rigid on separate gender bedrooms in cases of past sexual abuse. This would only be disclosed to other service providers on a need to know basis.

Anyone else having flashbacks to Emily of <$1000 on this thread? She was trying to fit 3 small boys and many hoarded possessions into a 6X8 closet (I remember because it was smaller than my bathroom). Little Daniel slept on a urine stained mattress under the crib. :shock:

[Letgo]

You sure wouldn't be able to sit up and read in bed in those four decker bunks! I wonder if any of these have ever collapsed? We had bunks when my kids were younger, but only two beds were involved. I'm not at all claustrophobic, but I think sleeping on the floor, knowing that three beds were over me, might push me toward it.

[Palimpsest]

That was Kim and Perry Coghlan, inashoe blog, formerly of Vision Forum.

Those pictures always reminds me of conditions in a bomb shelter in WWII London. It's fucking industrial shelving with a thin mattress, no way to sit up properly, and look at the plywood floor! It's literal warehousing of children. :(

[polecat]

Those pictures always reminds me of conditions in a bomb shelter in WWII London. It's fucking industrial shelving with a thin mattress, no way to sit up properly, and look at the plywood floor! It's literal warehousing of children. :(

I didn't even notice the plywood! How on earth do they even clean that? What if a kid throws up on it or has an accident?

[ViolaSebastian]

I just keep imagining what would happen if they collapsed. It'd be like a house of cards.

[BrownieMomma]

Reminds me of Japanese sleep capsules.

[busdrivingmom]

I stayed in a cabin once with my daughters Girl Scout troop and it was two rooms of triple bunks (cabin slept 24). It was awful, no way to sit up and read, and there was no graceful way to get out of the bottom bunk. Most of the adults had brought air mattresses and slept in the open room. I did it for two nights, I cannot imagine that for a whole childhood.

[anniebgood]

My 2 shared a room until we moved into a 3 BR house. They had bunkbeds that were separated and between the two of them, they drew the entire universe and Milky Way (with swirls) on their bedroom wall. They didn't like the white wall. :pink-shock:

Other than the usual sibling squabbles we never had a problem and when we moved, my daughter would drag her blanket into her brothers room and sleep on the floor until she got used to her bedroom.

[Mama Mia]

I agree. There is a lot of variation and enforcing whatever occupancy permits and codes are in place is pretty impossible. Overcrowding only really comes up if LE, Fire and Emergency services, or CPS visit the home. I think occupancy is usually decided by square footage and outside egress in cases of emergency. HUD does have a limit on square footage by I can't remember what it is.

To the bolded: My late in-laws had a family of 10 living next door in an identical 1,500 sq. ft. 3 bedroom house. They had 1 set of bunk beds on the enclosed and divided off by screens front porch, 1 set of bunk beds screened off in the "den" for the boys and bunk beds in each of the 2 smaller 8X10 bedrooms for the 4 girls. They all seemed to grow up very well adjusted and safely but I felt claustrophobic whenever I thought about it.

Mama Mia, I hear your frustration but an extra thought: CPS can be very rigid on separate gender bedrooms in cases of past sexual abuse. This would only be disclosed to other service providers on a need to know basis.

Anyone else having flashbacks to Emily of <$1000 on this thread? She was trying to fit 3 small boys and many hoarded possessions into a 6X8 closet (I remember because it was smaller than my bathroom). Little Daniel slept on a urine stained mattress under the crib. :shock:

Oh, definitely in cases of past sexual abuse it could be a genuine issue ( our service agency was involved in implementing the CPS reunification plans, so I read the plans) ....the problem would be some workers, usually new and transplants from lower cost areas, who would have just grossly unreasonable expectations. In a high cost area you just can't reasonably insist on gender segregated bedrooms. You can't even insist that a single parent with one child have a 2 bedroom...one of them can sleep in the living room. I would try to set them straight, and go over their heads if needed - because you can not have being not wealthy be a barrier to raising your children. In our area, even if you are fortunate enough to win the housing golden ticket of a Section 8 -- you won't get more bedrooms based on opposite sex children. I know that varies greatly by region and housing availability though.

And I would of been ecstatic if I could of found a 1,500 square foot actual single family house for a large family! And I would of forced the CPS worker to be ecstatic too :lol:

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

In my own life, we had, at one point, a total of 14 people living in our 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath, paper-thin walled 1,100 sq ft. condo. Fortunately it was only for 6 months, but at the time we thought it might be relatively permanent. It was partly our kids, who would be there permanently, partly kids who went back and forth due to custody- but at the time seemed like they would be there permanently, and partly extended family in an emergency situation. 3 adults, 3 teens, and 8 kindergarten - 5 th graders. Yes it was packed, but it wasn't horrible. And it was kinda fun trying to figure out who would go where. If only they had pinterest back then I could of come up with some awesome ideas ;) part of what made it not so bad is that we owned the place, after always having lived in rentals, so we were able to help out a desperate relative and her kids, or take on full-time custody when the other parent was not able to provide adequate care .

[docmom]

There are no safety rails on any of those bunks. If a kid fell out of the upper bunks and landed on that plywood floor they could get seriously hurt! Quite apart from the obvious wish not to hurt your children, surely the medical costs associated with such injuries would spur them to put up a couple of plywood rails!

[Palimpsest]

Oh, definitely in cases of past sexual abuse it could be a genuine issue ( our service agency was involved in implementing the CPS reunification plans, so I read the plans) ....the problem would be some workers, usually new and transplants from lower cost areas, who would have just grossly unreasonable expectations. In a high cost area you just can't reasonably insist on gender segregated bedrooms. You can't even insist that a single parent with one child have a 2 bedroom...one of them can sleep in the living room. I would try to set them straight, and go over their heads if needed - because you can not have being not wealthy be a barrier to raising your children. In our area, even if you are fortunate enough to win the housing golden ticket of a Section 8 -- you won't get more bedrooms based on opposite sex children. I know that varies greatly by region and housing availability though.

And I would of been ecstatic if I could of found a 1,500 square foot actual single family house for a large family! And I would of forced the CPS worker to be ecstatic too :lol:

{L_MESSAGE_HIDDEN}:

In my own life, we had, at one point, a total of 14 people living in our 3 bedroom 2 1/2 bath, paper-thin walled 1,100 sq ft. condo. Fortunately it was only for 6 months, but at the time we thought it might be relatively permanent. It was partly our kids, who would be there permanently, partly kids who went back and forth due to custody- but at the time seemed like they would be there permanently, and partly extended family in an emergency situation. 3 adults, 3 teens, and 8 kindergarten - 5 th graders. Yes it was packed, but it wasn't horrible. And it was kinda fun trying to figure out who would go where. If only they had pinterest back then I could of come up with some awesome ideas ;) part of what made it not so bad is that we owned the place, after always having lived in rentals, so we were able to help out a desperate relative and her kids, or take on full-time custody when the other parent was not able to provide adequate care .

Yes, we are definitely on the same page. The concept of a child having it's own room, or even own bed, is actually a very 1st World and 21st century notion. Most people can live happily in smaller houses. I do draw the line at packing 11 people into an RV or stacking children on 4 levels of industrial shelving as permanent housing in the US though!

Re. CPS. To be fair, it's a horrible job and badly underpaid. They do need to advocate very hard for their clients without adequate funding or any appreciation. We used to assume staff turnover approximately every 3 years in APS. We rather cynically estimated I year to train a new SW about reality and get them up to speed, 1 year of effective work, and 1 year when they were becoming burned out and rapidly less efficient - and then they quit. Who could blame them. There were obvious exceptions to that and some brilliant people, but the job is completely thankless and incredibly stressful.

[Firiel]

Meh, I'm having a hard time snarking on the bunk beds in that post or the idea of kids sharing a room.* I mean, I had three people in my room in college, and we stacked our beds three high by choice. It was fun (for a while, at least)! I had the middle one and turned it into a little cave. :) My sister and I chose to continue sharing a room until I graduated from high school and moved out, and as someone else pointed out, it's normal to share space like that in many cultures.

I mean, putting your kids on Costco shelves is obviously in a different ballpark. And I loved reading in bed, so Kelly's contraption would have been out for me too.

*Then again, I would totally still sleep in a bunk bed if I had the chance, as long as I get the top bunk and especially if the beds are more than two high. I fucking love bunk beds.