Liveblogging of the Botkin's "Marrying Well" webinar, Week2

[meda]

Ok, tonight is week 2 of the Marrying Well webinar with the Botkins. Here is a recap of the Week 1 session:

It was mostly David and Ben Botkin speaking, and the session discussed preparing for marriage and how they found their wives. The word “courtship†was avoided, because the Botkins reject the idea that young men and women should not get to know each other unless they are getting married. The term used was “talking about marriageâ€.

Pa Botkin also spoke about how segregating the sexes, with no contact until an official “courtship†was not a way to prepare young people for marriage. Unmarried men and women could work together and be friends, and strict gender segregation was not an effective way for young men to find “godly wivesâ€

A few other points from the boys that I thought were positive (for them):

1. Being married should not be the ultimate goal of life. It is an important state, but you are no less of a person if you are single, and you can still do “kingdom workâ€

2. Men are responsible for their “lustâ€. If a young man is a friend with a young woman, then that man is responsible for his words and actions around her. “You are a slave to Christ, not a slave to your lust†It is not the girl’s job to prevent a man from stumbling, (although “godly†girls will try) it is the man’s job act appropriately.

3. As mentioned, young men and women can and should be friends without an expectation that the friend ship will automatically lead to a wedding (or premarital sex)

4. Young men should prepare themselves for marriage in part by thinking about how they will love their wives as Christ loved the church. This is the only time I have heard the expression “die to self†applied to the man in a marriage. This was heavily emphasized by Ben: a mature man does not just think about finding a suitable helpmeet for himself, he should also think about finding a woman whom he can love in a sacrificial way.

5. Do not just look for a “checklist†spouse who is superficially similar to you and comes from an appropriate family and church. Find someone that you can grow and change with. A “new Christian†is no worse than a second generation

Now the negative: (in addition to all the expected submission stuff) all of this can only be accomplished with belief in Christ. No non-Christian can have a happy marriage. Also, The main reason to get married is to take dominion and change culture to create a Christian world. That, and we must out breed the heathens.

7 duties of marriage from Geoff:

1. Think about children, names for children

2. Duty to responsibly take dominion over the world (esp. Boys)

3. Use the marriage relationship to resist every enemy (marriage protects you against heathens)

4. Always seek first the interests of the Kingdom of Jesus Christ (Mathew 6, 33

5. Inculturate all the world with the claims of Christ ( I have no idea what this means)

6. Model the picture of Christ and the Church

7. Christianize all nations through obedience to scripture, taking dominion of all things

This week is about how to screen a suitor. I think the crazy will come screaming out from under the rock this week. Send me "schreening a suitor" questions, I know folks wanted me to ask some last week, but I have to sort of stay on topic if I want an answer. Starts at 8:30 pm.

[sableduck]

I got my speakers working, so I will be listening as well. Meda, I will totally know it's you if you ask some oddball screening a suitor question. In light of the questions concerning Nadia's parent's marriage, I wouild ask if it is ever acceptable to marry someone with divorced parents. As weird as that sounds to us, it's a legitimate fundie concern that I've heard from fundies. The sins of the fathers and all that.

[bicyclecat]

Maybe ask what kind of challenges he's having with screening suitors for his daughters? IE, why are they past their sell by date and still at home.

[meda]

I got my speakers working, so I will be listening as well. Meda, I will totally know it's you if you ask some oddball screening a suitor question. In light of the questions concerning Nadia's parent's marriage, I wouild ask if it is ever acceptable to marry someone with divorced parents. As weird as that sounds to us, it's a legitimate fundie concern that I've heard from fundies. The sins of the fathers and all that.

Yay, tandem comentary. I wonder if this series and the Brown marriage seminar in Oct are a response to the Taliban tendencies of some of their followers. If you don't educate your children, keep women in extreme purdah, and raise self entitled little boys, then probably the 2nd and 3rd generation is not going to stay in the fold and outbreed the heathens.

[sableduck]

Not just the taliban-esqnes of it all, but that fact that it isn't working. How many of these girls aren't getting married?

[meda]

There are powerpoint slides tonight! 96 of them! it's a bad media bonanza!

[meda]

Pa Borkin:

marriage must be recovered from "the futility of modernism" it has been debased. Courtship is a convention that over 20 centuries that has led to godly marriage. They are going to talk about David & Nadia's story.

Questions:

Is their 1 question that could be asked and answered that would give fathers the correct answer to a suitors intent?

at what stage do you inform the girl os aboys interest

should you ask yoour daughters opinion about courtship

what theological differences are dealbreakers

Is their cutting in line? what if dad finds a better option?

what is your advice to all ready married couples who are trying to get to know one another after marriage? (oy)

I cant type this fast, may post them later

[meda]

what if any forms of romantic expression were acceptable during courtship & engagement?

[sableduck]

I would be really sad if my husband said that he wanted to get married because it is a great means to "teach, disciple, and preach the gospel," which --I think it's David--just said.

I want my husband to say that he married me because he was in love with me.

Now we are listening to David and Nadia's story. THIS should be interesting...

[meda]

the sound s awful. Now David is rambling about why people just mindley going to on to get married. It shoul dnot be a mindless step. You should have a substantial vision because it will change what you look for.

David claims he wanted to get married for sanctification & to learn selfless love. okay dokey

David met Nadia at the end of 2009, when fam moved to Tenn from Texas. AN & S had met her a few years ago, and thought she was the shyest girl they had ecer met. David B was best friends with David Noor worked with him, David and his mother and sister moved to be with Botkins in Tennessee, father stayed in New Jersey.

Nadia "good had brought my family through some very challenging things, wants to encourage people who dont have a father, can still be a good Christian.

[meda]

The story about her Father being that DR in NJ who assulted his patients seems to be true.

They spent time together while they were planting a chuch. Davis first noticed that Nadia was selfless, also tried to befriend the lonely and be outgoing. He saw a girl that was working very hard on her character

[sableduck]

ok, Nadia seems very uncomfortable talking in this way. She does refer to many hard challeneges her family faced in New Jersey--her father's legal and moral troubles, presumably, but her father is never mentioned.

Now David is talking about establishing church culture. No idea what he is blathering on about, something about Christ-honoring conversations that they wanted to have. David is saying he spent quite a bit of time with the Noor family through all of this, because her brother David was his best friend. He was drawn to Nadia because she showed herself selfless in many situations, and how she tried to be outgoing and friend the lonely, even if she is naturally shy. And now Geoff is talking about how the first thing the family knows of Nadia is that she asked a lot of wise and decisive questions upon first meeting them.

[sableduck]

There is a picture of David and Nadia standing on a fire scene where an apartment complex burns. He said they were talking deeply about God.

Whatever. As a firefighter, I'd tell them to leave.

[meda]

Ok, the powerpoint photos are fab, I must try to link them later.

Also, David felt that Nadia had a better handle on scripture than he did. He liked that becasue one of the things david wanted was a wife who loved and "lived and drank" the word of god" I bet he is fun at parties.

Ok, photo of David and Nadia talking at night during a fire. The pic is of a multiple alarm fire of a drug dealers house burning down. Huh?

[meda]

They keep talking about their work. What work?

Nadia: noticed that David was humble and has a servants heard, common to see David being a leader, he answers questions for other young men about laws and joining the military. How would he know?

Also, she was worried that she was beginning to care about hin "she knew she could follow him"

Didn't know if it was gods will. Loving the lord means having no will but gods. Psalm 23

[sableduck]

Here's a picture of them crowded into a bus. David and Nadia's legs are touching! DEFRAUDER! DEFRAUDER!

[meda]

I keep losing the audio

[meda]

Now the pic is them surveying tornedo damage. WTF?

[sableduck]

David is talking about praying that God gave him a wife and gave Nadia a really good husband. I am thinking these people live in a perpetual state of self-induced denial.

[meda]

Ok, I'm out, can't keep the sound. I will post slides when I get link, pm me. I'll do a recap off the MP3 tomorrow.

[sableduck]

The audio is terrible. Right now they are talkign about how good Christian women crippled their husbands, even though they were Christian women who wanted to homeschooled and have lots of kids and serve their husbands. It really bothers me that that is their definition of a good woman. However David is saying that he had to decide whether he would be more productive being married to Nadia or not being married. He is going on how marriage is not the only way to "fulfill the dominion mandate." I think the Botkins are really moving towards something about how singleness is wonderful, probably to explain away Anna Sophia and Elizabeth's perpetual singleness.

[justlurking]

The story about her Father being that DR in NJ who assulted his patients seems to be true.

Wait a minute, WHAT?! :shock:

[meda]

check last weeks thread for the Noor family dirt

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2225

[Deleted12]

I got their "Fathers and Sons" series, and I have to say that for people who are supposedly all about teh media the production values were underwhelming.

Did you get a sense of how many people bought this thing?

If they got 1,000 sheep to buy in, that's $30,000.

[tehgoobster]

Pa Borkin:

marriage must be recovered from "the futility of modernism" it has been debased. Courtship is a convention that over 20 centuries that has led to godly marriage. They are going to talk about David & Nadia's story.

Questions:

Is their 1 question that could be asked and answered that would give fathers the correct answer to a suitors intent?

at what stage do you inform the girl os aboys interest

should you ask yoour daughters opinion about courtship

what theological differences are dealbreakers

Is their cutting in line? what if dad finds a better option?

what is your advice to all ready married couples who are trying to get to know one another after marriage? (oy)

I cant type this fast, may post them later

How did they answer those questions?