Apostasy = death pamphlet written by local Iman

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yes, the early Christians were oppressed by the Romans - but Constantine decriminalized Christianity in 313. It's quite a stretch to claim that somehow accounts for the Spanish Inquisition in 1492. Also, most Christians would have been converted after 313 and had no direct connection to the persecution era.

[It'sFunToRun]

I do find it odd that you use the term "Fundamentalist Christians" when discussing more extreme Christian beliefs and practices, but only use the term "Muslims" without any modifiers when discussing extreme Muslim beliefs and practices.

Do you think all Muslims, or nearly all Muslims, practice such an extreme brand of Islam? I can tell you from personal experience that the Taliban is NOT representative of all one billion Muslims in the world, though I can see how the media can be misleading in this way.

I have lived in Muslim countries and visited many more where this is not the case at all. In many Muslim countries one can practice whatever religion one wishes, wear whatever one wants (well, can't walk naked down the street, but that's the case in the US too), women have jobs and college degrees, and women are NOT murdered for being raped. (Also, I lived in these places as a single, very northern European looking woman who does not practice Islam).

I don't think all Muslims are like the Taliban. I'm glad Muslims exist and have weird (to me) practices like making girls and women wear headscarves (as long as they aren't harmed if they choose not to) and praying five times a day. It makes the world a more interesting place.

I do think that "normal" Muslims are already a lot less secular than "normal" Christians, and that "normal" Muslims more comparable to the Duggars than they are to Methodists or UU or even (non Fundamentalist) Baptists. I don't think the Duggars are bad people even though I disagree with them politically on abortion and gay rights. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, I don't think you'll find major branches of Islam that support gay rights, say women don't have to wear a headscarf, wouldn't shame women for pre-marital sex, etc.

I don't think that the "normal" Muslims are the ones forcing the burka and throwing acid, so I should have made that clear, but I think "normal" Muslims are already "fundamentalist" by the standards we hold Christians to.

[nausicaa]

I don't think all Muslims are like the Taliban. I'm glad Muslims exist and have weird (to me) practices like making girls and women wear headscarves (as long as they aren't harmed if they choose not to) and praying five times a day. It makes the world a more interesting place.

I do think that "normal" Muslims are already a lot less secular than "normal" Christians, and that "normal" Muslims more comparable to the Duggars than they are to Methodists or UU or even (non Fundamentalist) Baptists. I don't think the Duggars are bad people even though I disagree with them politically on abortion and gay rights. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, I don't think you'll find major branches of Islam that support gay rights, say women don't have to wear a headscarf, wouldn't shame women for pre-marital sex, etc.

I don't think that the "normal" Muslims are the ones forcing the burka and throwing acid, so I should have made that clear, but I think "normal" Muslims are already "fundamentalist" by the standards we hold Christians to.

Okay, I'm glad you see that there's a difference between "normal" and "fundamentalist." But I just wanted to share my personal experience here, because your posts strike me as someone who doesn't interact with many Muslims in real life, and well, because I'm long winded and can't shut my mouth:

I lived in Turkey for years and I did not know a single woman in my city who wore a headscarf. Abortion was legal and not even an issue. Women wore pants and were much more fashionable and edgy in their dress than the Duggars (hell, than even the average American). I worked with a woman who was an open lesbian and no one cared. People dated and while out of wedlock children was still a no-no, my impression was that most young people did not go to their wedding bed a virgin. One of the foreigners I worked with was openly atheist, another openly Buddhist. They were never harassed about it and there were no attempts at conversion. The Muslims there were MUCH more liberal than the Duggars. Moving back to Virginia was an adjustment for me because things were MORE conservative and religion played a larger role in things. I don't mean to make out Turkey as some paradise, there are problems and things I certainly prefer about the US, but I just wanted to give an example of the diversity within Islam and the Middle East.

And when I visited the Balkans, Lebanon, Bulgaria, and Central Asia, most or many of the Muslim women did not wear hijab, though some did wear traditional kerchiefs that are cultural, not religious. Your focus on hijab makes me think you are looking at a skewed sample of Muslims. If you assume all Muslims wear very noticeable religious garments, then you will probably be basing your definition of a "regular Muslim" on a more conservative end of the spectrum, while overlooking many practicing Muslims who wear pencil skirts or jeans and teeshirts. It would be like if I assumed all Christian women only wore long skirts, and then based my impressions on the spectrum of Christian beliefs within that sample.

Sorry for making this so long, just felt compelled to share. (Okay, and I'm procrastinating at work ;) )

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't think all Muslims are like the Taliban. I'm glad Muslims exist and have weird (to me) practices like making girls and women wear headscarves (as long as they aren't harmed if they choose not to) and praying five times a day. It makes the world a more interesting place.

I do think that "normal" Muslims are already a lot less secular than "normal" Christians, and that "normal" Muslims more comparable to the Duggars than they are to Methodists or UU or even (non Fundamentalist) Baptists. I don't think the Duggars are bad people even though I disagree with them politically on abortion and gay rights. Unlike Christianity or Judaism, I don't think you'll find major branches of Islam that support gay rights, say women don't have to wear a headscarf, wouldn't shame women for pre-marital sex, etc.

I don't think that the "normal" Muslims are the ones forcing the burka and throwing acid, so I should have made that clear, but I think "normal" Muslims are already "fundamentalist" by the standards we hold Christians to.

I'd make a distinction between someone simply being more secular/less observant, and movements/sects that embrace more liberal views and approaches.

Simply being less religious is fairly common. You have people that are cultural Muslims the same way that you have cultural Catholics - they know that some rules theoretically exist in the religion, but choose not to follow them. Cultural Muslims are very common in the Balkans. The Young Turks, under Ataturk, made Turkey officially secular. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atat%C3%BCrk%27s_Reforms Hijabs were less common because there were actually laws that banned it in universities and for public sector workers. The ban was overturned in 2010.

The Young Turk revolution was one reaction to the breakup of the Ottoman empire. Another was the creation of a bunch of new states by England and France, and that in turn sparked people like Hasan al-Bana and Sayyid Qutb to advocate a return to sharia law and start the Muslim Brotherhood.

Reformers, who seek a more liberal interpretation within Islam, do exist. Part of the problem, though, is that these teachings on apostasy make life really dangerous for them. Irshad Manji, for example, is a Muslim and lesbian and outspoken advocate for reform within Islam. She's great, and she lives with death threats. http://www.countercurrents.org/gneder-hari080504.htm In the 21th century, in Toronto, she was living behind bullet-proof glass. Tarek Fatah, a prominent moderate Muslim in Toronto who believes in separation of religion and state and a liberal form of Islam, has also received death threats.

[It'sFunToRun]

Okay, I'm glad you see that there's a difference between "normal" and "fundamentalist." But I just wanted to share my personal experience here, because your posts strike me as someone who doesn't interact with many Muslims in real life, and well, because I'm long winded and can't shut my mouth:

I lived in Turkey for years and I did not know a single woman in my city who wore a headscarf. Abortion was legal and not even an issue. Women wore pants and were much more fashionable and edgy in their dress than the Duggars (hell, than even the average American). I worked with a woman who was an open lesbian and no one cared. People dated and while out of wedlock children was still a no-no, my impression was that most young people did not go to their wedding bed a virgin. One of the foreigners I worked with was openly atheist, another openly Buddhist. They were never harassed about it and there were no attempts at conversion. The Muslims there were MUCH more liberal than the Duggars. Moving back to Virginia was an adjustment for me because things were MORE conservative and religion played a larger role in things. I don't mean to make out Turkey as some paradise, there are problems and things I certainly prefer about the US, but I just wanted to give an example of the diversity within Islam and the Middle East.

And when I visited the Balkans, Lebanon, Bulgaria, and Central Asia, most or many of the Muslim women did not wear hijab, though some did wear traditional kerchiefs that are cultural, not religious. Your focus on hijab makes me think you are looking at a skewed sample of Muslims. If you assume all Muslims wear very noticeable religious garments, then you will probably be basing your definition of a "regular Muslim" on a more conservative end of the spectrum, while overlooking many practicing Muslims who wear pencil skirts or jeans and teeshirts. It would be like if I assumed all Christian women only wore long skirts, and then based my impressions on the spectrum of Christian beliefs within that sample.

Sorry for making this so long, just felt compelled to share. (Okay, and I'm procrastinating at work ;) )

Where I've interacted with Muslims (Israel), practically all of the religious women wear a hijab, even though a lot of them wear it with pants. I consider the hijab (even if worn with pants) to be Duggar like because it's religious wear that stands out no less than long skirts. All of the religious Muslims send their kids to gender segregated, Muslim schools. There is an Arab population that drinks alcohol and the women dress normally, but they are the "secular Muslims" so I wasn't counting them, like I don't count people who only have a Christmas tree and Easter egg hunt as being "Christians". And I don't mean that in a bad way, just that it's a Muslim/Christian heritage/culture more than religion.

It's nice to hear your POV. Would you consider the Muslims you met to be religiously Muslim, or just culturally Muslim?

[nausicaa]

"It's nice to hear your POV. Would you consider the Muslims you met to be religiously Muslim, or just culturally Muslim?"

ItsFuntoRun (not hitting reply, cause we were creating a Frankenthread up there!), that's a good question and one I was thinking about as I typed my story about living in Turkey. Some definitely are culturally Muslim. Everyone who is Turkish (except for a very small minority of Jews in Istanbul and Izmir) is nominally a Sunni Muslim, so religious identity is sort of dictated to one, unlike the US. Some Turks, like my boyfriend at the time, if you questioned a bit, were more agnostic in their thinking, they just never thought to label it that way because Turk= Sunni Muslim.

However, there were also definitely people who didn't just partake in the celebratory/milestone aspects of Islamic culture, but who also felt personally compelled to fast during Ramadan, prayed at the mosque when they were upset/needed comfort, and some of my Turkish friends still post memes on facebook with pictures of sunset-lit historic mosques with some Quranic verses or some quote about trusting in God superimposed over the image, so it's obvious they find some comfort in their religion on some level. Unless someone is openly and adamantly an atheist, I'm hesitant to define more lax religious observers as only culturally their religion (but I get what you mean) because in a way it's sort of like saying fundamentalists are the only ones who practice their respective religions "correctly." There were women who wore bikinis at the beach and didn't know how to read the Arabic alphabet, but they planned on taking a Hajj one day and most definitely believed that Mohammed was a prophet.

I will cop to the fact that I lived in one of the more liberal cities in Turkey (very Mediterranean feel, think Greece) and because of its geography the city had historically depended on contact and trade with Jews and Christians in a variety of ethnicities, so some level of tolerance has always been an economic necessity. I have no doubt that there will be people who went to different parts of Turkey and had different experiences. But even the fact that that city DID exist, and the fact that there were many lax/non believers in Turkey fairly peacefully co-existing with more devout believers, I thought was a testament to the open-mindedness of the people and the potential flexibility of Islam.

I don't have the same amount of in-depth experience in other parts of the Middle East, but I definitely knew/socialized with some women from the Balkans and Bulgaria who dressed in a typical Western fashion, didn't subscribe to any sort of extremes (supported all levels of education for women, freedom of religion, rule of law, etc) but still fasted during Ramadan, did an aqeeqah on their newborns, and fully believed that the Qu'ran was sacred.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Turkey is a bit unique because, as I said before, it basically had this secular, western revolution and very consciously decided that religion would be separate from the state.

When I talk about someone being culturally Muslim or culturally Catholic, I'm not saying that they are really atheists. I just mean that they identify as being part of religion X because of their background, they will do some holidays and rituals and life cycle events, they may occasionally go to services or have some fondness for the religion, but they are also fine with ignoring rules which may theoretically exist. So, there are cultural Muslims who drink alcohol, just as there are cultural Catholics who use birth control and cultural Jews who may drive to High Holiday services at an Orthodox synagogue.

[nausicaa]

Turkey is a bit unique because, as I said before, it basically had this secular, western revolution and very consciously decided that religion would be separate from the state.

When I talk about someone being culturally Muslim or culturally Catholic, I'm not saying that they are really atheists. I just mean that they identify as being part of religion X because of their background, they will do some holidays and rituals and life cycle events, they may occasionally go to services or have some fondness for the religion, but they are also fine with ignoring rules which may theoretically exist. So, there are cultural Muslims who drink alcohol, just as there are cultural Catholics who use birth control and cultural Jews who may drive to High Holiday services at an Orthodox synagogue.

I agree that Turkey is somewhat unique, but I also think its an interesting case because it shows that having a nation consist of a Muslim majority does not preclude secularism or democracy.

I didn't mean to imply that you were saying that people who were culturally a religion were necessarily atheists, I was trying to say it's a fuzzy line between someone who is only culturally a religion and someone who takes a more liberal or laid back approach to their religious beliefs but who still considers him/herself as being a follower of that religion. So I normally reserve "culturally _____" for someone who has been outspoken about rejecting the central beliefs of their former faith, like announcing that one is an atheist but still putting up a Christmas tree (which wasn't necessarily what I encountered in Turkey).

I guess I hesitate with the term because, for example, someone like Steve Maxwell would say Episcopalians are only culturally Christian (okay, he'd say a lot worse than that...) while I know many Episcopalians who truly believe Christ is their savior and deeply feel that they are practicing Christianity-- blessing same sex unions, having female clergy, and all. Same with the "cafeteria Catholic" label that gets used so often towards more liberal Catholics. So I tend to take people at face value at what they describe themselves as. If someone feels that he is Muslim even if he drinks alcohol and doesn't ever go to the mosque then I just take it as he has a very liberal interpretation of Islam.

Punctuation edited to make points more clear.

[Mama Mia]

I know next to nothing about this topic, and think it's obviously much more complex than is usually presented - no matter what set of beliefs are being advocated.

I really appreciate that people are engaging in such a thoughtful and intelligent discussion on what can be such an explosive topic. And I have to say to Fun to Run, that I am really impressed that after getting called out about the other topic, that you stuck around and are posting in ways other people don't find over-the-line ( whether you agree with that assessment or not) and I'm one of the main posters who was arguing with you on that topic. I don't want to derail, or turn this into a discussion about that, but wanted to acknowledge that I appreciate that you don't seem to have been a troll. For what it's worth.

Anyway....really interested in everyone's observations and differing views on this topic.

[Arete]

I'd like to see a discussion in this board about other kinds of fundamentalism without it turning into "Yeah, that's bad, but Christian fundies are worse! Just as bad!" There are eleventy billion discussions a week on this board that hash out Christian fundies in all their fuckwittery. It is OK to have a thread every once in a while that deals in other religion's fundementalists movements.

[DGayle]

As extreme as fundamentalist Christians are, none of them are as bad as fundamentalist Muslims.

If left to their own devices and without pesky laws like minimum marriages ages, I suspect a lot of Christian fundies would be a lot more like Muslim fundies.

[nausicaa]

I'd like to see a discussion in this board about other kinds of fundamentalism without it turning into "Yeah, that's bad, but Christian fundies are worse! Just as bad!" There are eleventy billion discussions a week on this board that hash out Christian fundies in all their fuckwittery. It is OK to have a thread every once in a while that deals in other religion's fundementalists movements.

You are normally one of my favorite posters AreteJo, but that's a bit unfair. I (and perhaps some other posters) find the approach to the snarking a bit different because the vast majority of posters on this board are from Christian (at least nominally) countries, so when we are snarking on Christian fundamentalists it seems clearer that we are snarking on a sub-group of people because of their beliefs and actions and have enough personal experience with Christians (cultural and religious) and knowledge of Christianity that we aren't just painting with a broad brush. Race and "othering" don't play as much of a role either.

However, a lot of people believe the entire Middle East is one homogenous desert where everyone speaks Arabic and uses a camel to get around. I've met college-educated adults who truly think that everyone in the Middle East wants to marry a 12-year-old, behead all Jews, and throw burkas on women. Islamic fundamentalist snarking can easily turn into "Ew, all those impoverished brown people are all so barbaric and backwards unlike us." I've seen it happen, not necessarily here, but elsewhere in my life many times.

I am in complete agreement with 2xx1xy1JD that that imam is a whackadoo and don't fault her at all for being worried about him and starting a thread. I didn't get into this thread because of any of her posts. And I was throwing my personal experience into the mix to give a broader view of the Middle East, not to 86 snarking. Please, snark away.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You are normally one of my favorite posters AreteJo, but that's a bit unfair. I (and perhaps some other posters) find the approach to the snarking a bit different because the vast majority of posters on this board are from Christian (at least nominally) countries, so when we are snarking on Christian fundamentalists it seems clearer that we are snarking on a sub-group of people because of their beliefs and actions and have enough personal experience with Christians (cultural and religious) and knowledge of Christianity that we aren't just painting with a broad brush. Race and "othering" don't play as much of a role either.

However, a lot of people believe the entire Middle East is one homogenous desert where everyone speaks Arabic and uses a camel to get around. I've met college-educated adults who truly think that everyone in the Middle East wants to marry a 12-year-old, behead all Jews, and throw burkas on women. Islamic fundamentalist snarking can easily turn into "Ew, all those impoverished brown people are all so barbaric and backwards unlike us." I've seen it happen, not necessarily here, but elsewhere in my life many times.

I am in complete agreement with 2xx1xy1JD that that imam is a whackadoo and don't fault her at all for being worried about him and starting a thread. I didn't get into this thread because of any of her posts. And I was throwing my personal experience into the mix to give a broader view of the Middle East, not to 86 snarking. Please, snark away.

Thanks.

I do like getting into discussions about broader issues in the world. I realize that I have more background than the average American, but I have real concerns about blanket assumptions and lack of knowledge. Any reference to "ancient conflict going back to the time of Abraham", for example, makes me stabby. No, there were Jewish communities all over the Middle East and North Africa, they have specific histories which should be honored, and there was a definite point in recent history where there was a wave of persecution. Countries like Iran and Iraq and Afghanistan weren't always horrible backward places. They have a rich history, there was a period where things were modern and somewhat more westernized, and society broke down and went backward. I get frustrated when people don't seem to make an effort to actually understand what trends are going on or what is actually happen or even to listen to the actual people involved. I get frustrated by the "explainers" - people who aren't from the region who take it upon themselves to declare that everything is really about [insert their pet cause], instead of actually allowing the unedited message through from the direct sources.

I also have a very different view, because I'm neither Christian nor American. To be very honest, when I make fun of fundies in the Bible Belt, I probably am "othering". To me, these are strange foreign people with funny accents and foods and culture and beliefs. I've never been to Arkansas or anywhere else in the Bible Belt, nor have I met anyone IRL from there. Nobody has called me out on this, but I suppose they could. Most of the Christians that I know are "cultural Christians", and the few that I know who are really religious are usually Asian or black. My FIL was born in Iraq, there's a huge Persian community, there's a large Ahmaddiyah community, and someone like this iman is far more immediate to me than any Christian fundie.

[Arete]

My comment wasn't aimed at any of your observations in this thread, nausicaa. Just a general trend I sense on this board that we must avoid other than Christian snark because some people think all Muslims uniformly behave in one way. I don't particularly care that the troll is trolling, that is what she does to get attention, and Islam is just her vehicle on this thread.

I think most people on this board can make the distinction between the practice of Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. I don't see why the existence of the ones that can't have to shut down discussion. It not only gives them way more power than is warranted, it actually reinforces their dumbass assumptions. Religious and political fundementalists are a worldwide problem, and it is not wrong or racist if the discussion of one kind occasionally spins off into a discussion of another kind. Your observations alone about your experience in an actual majority Muslim country among actual people practicing Islam is enough to make the troll's talking points about all Muslims being one way laughable. Discussion is a great disinfectant.

[FoxyMoxie]

ItsFunToRun - many Muslim women don't wear a hijab. I've especially seen this in Pakistani and Bangladeshi Muslim women. Hijab goes a little further than just wearing a headcovering and is more like Jewish tznius (I hope I spelt that right!). It includes other guidelines about clothing and behaviour. Trousers have historically always been a part of Muslim women's dress though, and are seen as perfectly modest - in fact, when guessing whether a woman from the Indian Subcontinent is Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, you can usually tell that a woman is Muslim if she's wearing a shalwar kameez or tunic and trouser set. I find it quite surprising that you'd equate wearing a hijab with the Duggars - hijab and the Duggar's skirts-only thing are done for very different reasons. It varies, but usually hijab is done as a sign between the wearer and Allah, not as any kind of showing off to others. Some women may wear hijab for more cultural reasons or be forced into it (though I think most Muslims would say that it should be a sign of personal faith and not forced), but it's definitely not a fundie practice. Plenty of very liberal Muslim women (including LGBT Muslim women) who wear hijab.

[FoxyMoxie]

My comment wasn't aimed at any of your observations in this thread, nausicaa. Just a general trend I sense on this board that we must avoid other than Christian snark because some people think all Muslims uniformly behave in one way. I don't particularly care that the troll is trolling, that is what she does to get attention, and Islam is just her vehicle on this thread.

I think most people on this board can make the distinction between the practice of Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. I don't see why the existence of the ones that can't have to shut down discussion. It not only gives them way more power than is warranted, it actually reinforces their dumbass assumptions. Religious and political fundementalists are a worldwide problem, and it is not wrong or racist if the discussion of one kind occasionally spins off into a discussion of another kind. Your observations alone about your experience in an actual majority Muslim country among actual people practicing Islam is enough to make the troll's talking points about all Muslims being one way laughable. Discussion is a great disinfectant.

I would agree, with the caveat that Islamophobia is more common in the West (and we are a mostly Western board) than prejudices against other religions and so I think it has its own particular lack of privilege. I don't think discussion should be shot down and as you say, it is a great disinfectant - I just think there also needs to be a bigger-than-usual sign to check your (general you) privilege.

[It'sFunToRun]

I would agree, with the caveat that Islamophobia is more common in the West (and we are a mostly Western board) than prejudices against other religions and so I think it has its own particular lack of privilege. I don't think discussion should be shot down and as you say, it is a great disinfectant - I just think there also needs to be a bigger-than-usual sign to check your (general you) privilege.

Depends, if someone looks at Muslim women in the swat valley, for example, and says "why don't they just get out of there and go to college, lol!", then that person should consider that they have options that those women don't. On the other hand, if someone looks at Muslim men in the swat valley, for example, and says "why don't they stop shooting girls who go to school?", then no one needs to think that it is less immoral than if someone from the US shot up schools, because the Muslim terrorists are under privileged.

[shedemei]

You don't need to look further at the dress of some young Muslims to see that hijab is cultural. My favorite combo is leggings, short-sleeved T-shirt that doesn't cover the butt, and a headscarf.

When it comes to Islam I've observed that discussion tends to be polarized. Either they're all evil terrorists or people fall all over themselves to say there are no problems with Islam at all and it's a few bad apples. It's not that simple, and Islamic people aren't a uniform group. There are cultures in which it's no different from the rest of the world and others where it's the vehicle for violence. People that try to be in the middle tend to get shouted down.

This is why I just do not discuss Islam or Israel with my friends. They tend to be on both extremes and it's frustrating and unproductive.

[It'sFunToRun]

I would agree, with the caveat that Islamophobia is more common in the West (and we are a mostly Western board) than prejudices against other religions and so I think it has its own particular lack of privilege. I don't think discussion should be shot down and as you say, it is a great disinfectant - I just think there also needs to be a bigger-than-usual sign to check your (general you) privilege.

Interestingly, I've found the phrase "check your privilege" to be counterproductive. It usually makes people defensive, and then they point out all the ways in which they are not privileged. I'd use the phrase if I were trying to annoy someone (which is sometimes ;) ), but not if I were trying to have a temperate discussion.

[FoxyMoxie]

Depends, if someone looks at Muslim women in the swat valley, for example, and says "why don't they just get out of there and go to college, lol!", then that person should consider that they have options that those women don't. On the other hand, if someone looks at Muslim men in the swat valley, for example, and says "why don't they stop shooting girls who go to school?", then no one needs to think that it is less immoral than if someone from the US shot up schools, because the Muslim terrorists are under privileged.

That's not the kind of privilege being discussed here, and having less privilege =/= being less immoral.

[It'sFunToRun]

That's not the kind of privilege being discussed here, and having less privilege =/= being less immoral.

Off topic, but what programming language (I assume) is that from? Your =/= which I'm guessing means "not equal", I've just never seen it before.

Edited for clarity.

[FoxyMoxie]

Interestingly, I've found the phrase "check your privilege" to be counterproductive. It usually makes people defensive, and then they point out all the ways in which they are not privileged. I'd use the phrase if I were trying to annoy someone (which is sometimes ;) ), but not if I were trying to have a temperate discussion.

The exact phrase used is not important - just that people are aware of their privilege.

[It'sFunToRun]

Oh, is it supposed to look like an equals with a slash through it? I get it. Derp.

[It'sFunToRun]

That's not the kind of privilege being discussed here, and having less privilege =/= being less immoral.

So what are you talking about then?

[FoxyMoxie]

Oh, is it supposed to look like an equals with a slash through it? I get it. Derp.

Yeah, literally just 'does not equal'. It's not programming language as far as I know.