New swag from the Botkinettes!

[Columbia]

This may be the part where I need to talk about trigger warnings. I'm not certain. Proceed at your own risk.

- A-S and E will now tell us how to deal with “4 different types of guyâ€

o The nice boy who doesn’t have very good boundaries or isn’t emotionally self-controlled: don’t give them the cold shoulder, don’t be rude, they need a kind, sisterly dignity to show them what good boundaries look like. We can give a guy a taste for either the right or wrong kind of relationship, and we definitely don’t want to give this type of guy the wrong taste.

o The charmer/flirt: sometimes guys like this have good hearts, but have never met a girl who didn’t want flirtation. Good guys with bad baggage, bad habits, only used to bad women. “You might be the first girl who ever treated him as a human being with a brain and a soul.†(Just say you can fix him, E, we all know that’s where this is going) Try to show him what good brother-sister interactions look like. Don’t just follow his lead, don’t respond to all his come-ons. “This kind of man usually tests the water to see what kind of girl he’s dealing with, and what he can get away with, and you don’t have to play his game.

o The creep/seducer/molester: (DPIATR’s face onscreen… I wish) Some of us think we’ll never come up against a predator or pervert, because we avoid those circles, but they run in every circle. We’re not prepared for where the threat is coming from. Majority of sexual attacks are perpetrated by friends of the woman, and happen in her home. The biggest danger to us is relationships. “It’s not who do you already know not to trust, but who you have already let into your trust.†More likely to be someone close to you who you don’t want to hurt/cut off, but bad things can happen if you’re not willing to do that. Red flags: trying to erode your boundaries, sneaky opportunities for physical contact, acts differently around you when parents aren’t around, tries to go behind parents’ backs, more interested in looks and charms than character. When you realize what he’s doing, you should tell your parents, rebuke him openly, get totally away from him. (reference to Joseph and Potiphar’s wife.) Be aware that scandalous interactions usually don’t start with a scandalous step.

o The violent criminal: embrace the rules and curfews your father has given you for your protection. Know what God’s law requires us to do in a situation like this. Deuteronomy 22, a woman’s duty to resist violation needs to be expressed in crying out for help. Letting the guy know you’re not a consenting adult is not enough. We need to call for help (principle in Scripture,) and bring in a third party to intervene. E says they have a lot of friends who were “attacked and almost violated†and these friends say this takes a lot of courage because a common response is to freeze up. “If we don’t cry out or make any move to resist, Scripturally we could be considered accomplices in the crime.†Our best weapon against evil is hating it as much as God does. The ability to hate sin is where our strength to resist sin comes from. E recommends taking a self-defense class, studying situational awareness, carrying pepper spray or a gun (E says they both carry, and recommends taking a gun safety course and practicing often.) Let someone know if you’re dealing with criminal behaviors. “There are times when the right thing is to go to your parents, there are times when the right thing is to go to your elders, and there are times when the right thing is to go to the police.†47:31 into a 56:43 talk, and only now has anyone mentioned the police. E says that unfortunately this isn’t the speech to address when you should do to whom. If a crime is committed against you and you tried to resist and call out for help you are soiled or damaged or tarnished “even if your virginity has been taken away from you.†A virtuous woman fights for purity and holiness, it has nothing to do with her past or with what others have done to her. There’s hope for the girl who has given in to evil. Purity deals more with present state of heart and mind that with the past. Lots of talk about Christ making us pure, forgiveness, redemption, fairly standard stuff regarding sin in general, not just losing one’s virginity.

E’s summary: The thing we need most in this battle is a clean heart

What makes our heart clean or unclean? What are our hearts?

Hearts: fountains that make up all our hopes, desires, thoughts, feelings that make up who we are

Guard our hearts because wickedness comes out of them (Mark 7:20)

Talk about God’s promise to give us new hearts

The biggest threat to our purity is the world, the flesh, or the devil. The war of our hearts is whether we’ve given them entirely to the one true God, or have given them to other gods. Relationships are complicated because our hearts are complicated.

“Every relationship can be broken down to a series of moral tests and moral choices.â€

Things get complicated when we don’t want to boil things down into right vs. wrong choices and have to make the right choice.

How much do we really care about doing right? If we know what we need to do and can’t make ourselves do it maybe we need to consider whether Christ is really in us. (Presumably then, the girl who doesn’t resist doesn’t really have Christ in her.)

[Marian the Librarian]

Many thanks, Columbia, for taking this one on for the team! I listened to the whole recording, but couldn't bring myself to write up a summary of this poisonous old wine in new bottles.

And hooray to Curious for this:

If you are constantly being misunderstood by a variety of people, it's time to take a look at the common denominator.

Amen I say, and amen. For as long as I've been aware of their existence, the Botkins have whinged about being "misunderstood." (IIRC, our own Knight in Shining Amore specifically described Isaac as "the misunderstood Botkin," and Geoff has publicly moaned about his family being misunderstood and persecuted.)

A sure sign of maturity (not to mention sanity) is the ability to recognize one's common denominator-ness, if I may coin that phrase. Based on their latest public messages, the Botkins aren't there yet.

[Jasmar]

Well that Good Girls & Problem Guys talk was sure complicated. If that's how they worked out the whole DPIAT scandal to themselves and to appease any questions out there, I wonder how their brains don't explode.

Indeed. Mine nearly did just reading Columbia's summary. Seriously, that whole thing makes me so angry I can hardly read it. Who do those supercilious, ignorant, poor excuses for women think they are? Judgmental bitches. I don't for one minute think they're doing anything more than victim-shaming Lourdes.

[lilith]

So by stoning a woman to death, one is not reproving her, oh no, it's all a message to her father. And if she was raped and didn't tell Daddy, it's his fault for not raising her to be accountable to him, and that's a problem cause he might unwittingly pass her off as a virgin.....

WTF?!??

[RosyDaisy]

I feel even more strongly that AS and E were victims of DPIATR in some way or was (not necessarily raped) . Perhaps Daddy Botkin stepped in and removed himself and his family away from DPIATR.

[Columbia]

After re-reading my posts, I'd like to make something quite clear, since I know Lourdes and her husband (and some of her fans) follow FJ.

The disparaging remarks I made about Lourdes were not personal opinions, but rather a reflection of a talk that I saw was given solely to address how Lourdes was very much the cause of the downfall of their illustrious leader. I also saw this as a checklist of rules to ensure that if this were to happen to anyone again, at least we would know exactly how this was her fault. (“If you really know without question what’s true, and what’s not true, nobody will ever be able to control you with flattery, with threats, with false guilt, pity, lies, false accusations, a false perception of reality, or a false sense of morality.â€) Very little in this talk was actually given in the interest of keeping girls strong and protected. I have the deepest respect for Lourdes, I'm very happy that she escaped such a dangerous, unhealthy system, and I wish her joy, peace, and justice.

Also, in my first post, that should be "mikvah," not "mitkam." Mea maxima culpa.

[morfydd]

I don't want to white knight for the Botkins - I don't particularly follow them and their smugness keeps it that way. But I do find it interesting that they talk about the "freezing' effect as a normal response.

People talk about "fight or flight" all the time, but I'd say 80% of the time I'm in a stressful situation, and 99% of the time I'm in a situation where someone is making uncomfortable advances of whatever level, my first response is to freeze. At over 40, I'm able to get over it and move to a more useful response now, but it's taken a long time and resulted in a lot of bad outcomes. It's hard to show in media, too - writers want their characters to either be victims for the plot or successful fighters. ("Unhand me, you brute!" Spinning kick decapitates the villain... :) ) And it's hard to act the internal monologue: "OhShitOhShitOhShitIsThisReallyHappeningButILikeHimButIfISayNoHe'llGetMadHowDoIGetOutWhatDoIDo". :?

I spent a lot of time freezing, then kicking myself for having such a stupid (and I thought unusual) response. I had no idea it's actually pretty much the norm.

So saying that freezing is a natural response, not judging it, and giving strategies to un-freeze and deal with it, could be very helpful in the fundie community. I don't know that the Botkins are a great agent for that, but I'm pleasantly surprised to see it at all.

[DomWackTroll]

I feel even more strongly that AS and E were victims of DPIATR in some way or was (not necessarily raped) . Perhaps Daddy Botkin stepped in and removed himself and his family away from DPIATR.

But would Doug really take a chance on going up against Geoff? Predators prey on the weak, and Geoff Botkin is not weak. If he had any inkling that his daughters were being abused by Doug Phillips, I think there would have been a lot more going on than simply "moving away."

[gustava]

After re-reading my posts, I'd like to make something quite clear, since I know Lourdes and her husband (and some of her fans) follow FJ.

The disparaging remarks I made about Lourdes were not personal opinions, but rather a reflection of a talk that I saw was given solely to address how Lourdes was very much the cause of the downfall of their illustrious leader. I also saw this as a checklist of rules to ensure that if this were to happen to anyone again, at least we would know exactly how this was her fault. (“If you really know without question what’s true, and what’s not true, nobody will ever be able to control you with flattery, with threats, with false guilt, pity, lies, false accusations, a false perception of reality, or a false sense of morality.â€) Very little in this talk was actually given in the interest of keeping girls strong and protected. I have the deepest respect for Lourdes, I'm very happy that she escaped such a dangerous, unhealthy system, and I wish her joy, peace, and justice.

Also, in my first post, that should be "mikvah," not "mitkam." Mea maxima culpa.

I understood the sarcasm about Lourdes was not your personal opinion.

[Laurabelle]

I feel even more strongly that AS and E were victims of DPIATR in some way or was (not necessarily raped) . Perhaps Daddy Botkin stepped in and removed himself and his family away from DPIATR.

I think you may be right (or at least onto something). I can’t see Doug actually physically abusing them in any way (like DWT said above) because of Daddy Bot, but maybe DPIAR got a little too close or said something inappropriate? I just don’t understand this whole “this wouldn’t happen if you were aware/stronger Christian/told Daddy/etc.†tripe E & A-S are spinning out—unless they feel justified in saying it because they were able to “overcome†Doug, whereas Lourdes was not. It really seems like something like that may have happened and now they see themselves as those strong Christian ladies who rejected the abuse. (Not that they are right or justified in doing so if this is the case, but it would make more sense)

Then again, they could just be making crap up that realistically is illogical. Wouldn’t be the first time.

[nokidsmom]

But would Doug really take a chance on going up against Geoff? Predators prey on the weak, and Geoff Botkin is not weak. If he had any inkling that his daughters were being abused by Doug Phillips, I think there would have been a lot more going on than simply "moving away."

Agree, I can't see DPIAT trying anything with AS and E because of daddy, who would probably raise some serious, serious hell, making the current scandal pale in comparision.

[DefraudedByPlaid]

While I was surprised to read that some of their views have supposedly changed, it makes some sense because they are in their twenties and haven't grown up in a community that encourages young people to develop independent opinions in their teens (or, um, maybe at all?). So maybe something that has been suppressed for a long time is finally being expressed. If so, better late than never.

But the fact that Geoff allowed it to be published under the auspices of the family conservatoire? THAT is what really shocks me. Even if he's not as controlling behind the scenes as their previous teachings would lead us to believe, that doesn't mean Geoff would allow his daughters to create programs for the family website that he didn't want to be publicized. Not sure if it's pure strategy in response to the scandal, or if there's actually some legit self-awareness happening with the "adult" Botkins...

[RosyDaisy]

But would Doug really take a chance on going up against Geoff? Predators prey on the weak, and Geoff Botkin is not weak. If he had any inkling that his daughters were being abused by Doug Phillips, I think there would have been a lot more going on than simply "moving away."

DPIATR tried to sneak into Lorurdes' bedroom knowing her father and brothers had guns and knew how to shoot. So, yeah,it's entirely within the realm of possibility that he would try something with AS & E.

I don't think he physically hurt the Botkinettes, but I do believe something happened. Hell, I think there are more victims of DPIATR than we know.

[Olive Plant]

None of what was in the write-up seemed that surprising to me. There's still a strong undertone of victim-blaming (if you don't cry out, you're also responsible, which in the context they're talking about means death by stoning). I was happy to see them use actual statistics about women freezing up and most molestations coming from people you know. But they still have a long way to go. Their weird Biblical lessons from Bathsheba vs Abigail, not to mention the laws about stoning non-virgin daughters, mean they're still in lala land.

Edited because I quoted the wrong thing.

[PrairieGirl]

Damage control. That is all I see this as being. I believe the Botkins have had money problems for a while, since they cannot seem to marry off their very beautiful 30-something daughters and people are tired of their schtick. Now they need to reinvent themselves, because Daddy cannot pay the bills and any speaking engagements they booked as a result of Vision Forum are long gone.

I truly hope that DPIAR did not hurt those ladies in any way.

[DomWackTroll]

Damage control. That is all I see this as being. I believe the Botkins have had money problems for a while, since they cannot seem to marry off their very beautiful 30-something daughters and people are tired of their schtick. Now they need to reinvent themselves, because Daddy cannot pay the bills and any speaking engagements they booked as a result of Vision Forum are long gone.

This is the difference I see between the Botkins and Peter Bradrick. Peter got a real job. Anna Sofia may have "Liked" Peter's confessional Facebook post, but it's clear that the Botkins have no intention of changing their ways. It's so funny to hear Geoff (through the "girls") talk about authority, because he has refused to be under anyone's authority his entire adult life. Geoff Botkin will die in a gutter-- and allow his family to die with him-- before he will ever humble himself and take a "wordly" job, working for another man. Never mind how this COMPLETELY contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

[fiery redhead]

"..how to deal with a flirt.."

Umm, if they're attractive and not creepy, flirt back?

The Botkins would disapprove of my methods. :nenner:

[Columbia]

Agree, I can't see DPIAT trying anything with AS and E because of daddy, who would probably raise some serious, serious hell, making the current scandal pale in comparision.

I do agree that Geoff would make DPIATR's life a living hell if he went after one of his daughters, but what if DPIATR had some dirt on Geoff to keep him quiet? Maybe they would just agree to part ways peacefully and avoid each other from now on.

[RosyDaisy]

"..how to deal with a flirt.."

Umm, if they're attractive and not creepy, flirt back?

That's how my relationship started with my fiancee strted. I slipped and skinned my knee at the Space and Rocket Center, and we flirted while he put a band-aid on my knee. Oh, but I had chaperones of course...my minister, 2 women from my church and 7pre--schoolers...LOL! Little did I know I dropped a tube of lipstick and a church business card. I was very surprised when he showed up at my church the next Sunday morning. That might sound creepy for some, but strangely it didn't to me. We've been together ever since and are getting married.

So there, Botkinettes, a flirt isn't always a bad man.

[nausicaa]

That's how my relationship started with my fiancee strted. I slipped and skinned my knee at the Space and Rocket Center, and we flirted while he put a band-aid on my knee. Oh, but I had chaperones of course...my minister, 2 women from my church and 7pre--schoolers...LOL! Little did I know I dropped a tube of lipstick and a church business card. I was very surprised when he showed up at my church the next Sunday morning. That might sound creepy for some, but strangely it didn't to me. We've been together ever since and are getting married.

So there, Botkinettes, a flirt isn't always a bad man.

Dang, that's a good MeetCute story!

This is one of the many reasons I am hesitant to use Match.com, It may be silly, but I want a good how we met story, damnit!

[nokidsmom]

Dang, that's a good MeetCute story!

This is one of the many reasons I am hesitant to use Match.com, It may be silly, but I want a good how we met story, damnit!

I met Mr. No of all places, at jury duty! Even my sisters think their "how I met my husband" stories (one in a bar, the other in a online chat room) are boring in comparision to that one.

[nokidsmom]

I do agree that Geoff would make DPIATR's life a living hell if he went after one of his daughters, but what if DPIATR had some dirt on Geoff to keep him quiet? Maybe they would just agree to part ways peacefully and avoid each other from now on.

I suspect if there were dirt on Geoff, I would think it would be counterbalanced by DPIAT's shenanigans anyway, as there's probably a lot out there we don't know. So think it would be a quiet parting of ways at best, but somehow I think that when it comes to his daughters, all bets would be off and he would raise a huge, huge stink. And DPIAT would know it.

Also, Lourdes was a nanny in the family home which put her at risk. AS and E are fundie princesses would not be in that kind of position at any point.

[fiery redhead]

That's how my relationship started with my fiancee strted. I slipped and skinned my knee at the Space and Rocket Center, and we flirted while he put a band-aid on my knee. Oh, but I had chaperones of course...my minister, 2 women from my church and 7pre--schoolers...LOL! Little did I know I dropped a tube of lipstick and a church business card. I was very surprised when he showed up at my church the next Sunday morning. That might sound creepy for some, but strangely it didn't to me. We've been together ever since and are getting married.

So there, Botkinettes, a flirt isn't always a bad man.

I like this

[Coconut Flan]

Doug may have just given one of the Botkinettes an off feeling. Some people are born with perv radar. I was. All she had to do was tell daddy that there was something off and if he trusted her instincts, he'd have begun distancing himself. There would nothing to tell, but he'd protect his daughters.

[Jasmar]

Also, those two princesses came from a position of comparable social standing (upper ear middle class white folks(, while Lourdes's family seem to have been a little less equal, in the best tradition of Animal Farm. Abusers tend to groom those with a greater power delta.