New swag from the Botkinettes!

[Howl]

Anna Sophia and Elizabeth have a normal cousin who blogs (kbotkin dot com/) at Culture, Adventure, Stillness.

I enjoy her writing and perspective. She blogs relatively infrequently (once or twice a month, depending) but I'll check more often to see if she has anything to say about changes with her cousins.

[hoipolloi]

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but it's also quite possible that it was simply a personality issue (and a vague feeling of "something's not right here"). Doug wanted to be surrounded by bootlickers like Bradrick, Coghlan, and Sarratt, but Geoff and Voddie are alphas who will never lick anyone's boots. Both Geoff and Voddie sucked up to Doug just long enough to get "famous enough" and then slowly tapered off their interactions with him. If it had been about sexual abuse, I think it would have been a more sudden split. But God knows I've been wrong before when it comes to these freaks.

It's also possible that Geoff & Voddie became aware of Doug's ongoing abuse of Lourdes (and perhaps others) but, being the manly Christian patriarchs they are, they got the hell out of Dodge.

After all, Doug may have been sinning but, in their world view, the victim(s) bore at least half the responsibility for any sin.

[Marian the Librarian]

I've just listened to the "Good Girls Problem Guys" speech - it is absolutely, totally a backing-away from the Doug Phillips scandal, without once mentioning it (or him) in so many words.

Am now working my way through "It's Not About Staying at Home," where they do begin by saying "I know that there's a lot of people right now, especially after the events of last year, who are probably feeling a little bit shaken about some of the things they were putting their faith in."

It makes sense to me that these are the two new products they're offering free of charge - they're scrambling to reclaim market share.

[hoipolloi]

It makes sense to me that these are the two new products they're offering free of charge - they're scrambling to reclaim market share.

Yes, how would Jesus re-brand?

[snarkopolis]

Evangelicalism has a weird love affair with very young people dispensing advice about things they know nothing about. The Botkinettes are one example. Or there was very young and single Josh Harris explaining how to (not) date in order to have a successful marriage. I sat through chapel services at Christian school where the speakers were teenage students talking about how they and their peers should interact in the workplace someday or some such thing they knew absolutely nothing about. Then grown adults who should have known better would praise them because "the spirit gave them wisdom" when there was no wisdom involved at all.

It is very strange and I have never figured out why it is so common.

You need young people to convince other young people that this shiny wonderful life is real and to join and/or not leave.

[Curious]

If you’re sick of legalism, idolatry, formulas, movements, bandwagons, Christian-subculture trends and man-made rules,

er isn't this exactly what THEY have been pedaling (is that spelled right?) the last few years? It's great if they have decided that isn't the way to go (due to the recent scandals), but what about all the young women that you have enticed into virtual slavery in the mean time?

[Curious]

They backed the crazy train up, but only a little. 90% of it is more of the same.

They also talk about how misunderstood they were. Well why didn't you correct all these people that misunderstood you? They talk about crazy email questions about modesty, college, work etc. they receive and how their point is constantly missed. Well you have a blog, you couldn't have addressed this issue before?

If you are constantly being misunderstood by a variety of people, it's time to take a look at the common denominator. In this case, that would be A-S and E. So they either need to work on their communication skills before they continue on the path they have chosen or give their heads a shake and wonder why SO many people that email them are crazy.

Either way, it's incumbent on THEM to clear up any misunderstandings and they have had plenty of platforms with which to do that prior to this.

[nelliebelle1197]

If you are constantly being misunderstood by a variety of people, it's time to take a look at the common denominator. In this case, that would be A-S and E. So they either need to work on their communication skills before they continue on the path they have chosen or give their heads a shake and wonder why SO many people that email them are crazy.

Either way, it's incumbent on THEM to clear up any misunderstandings and they have had plenty of platforms with which to do that prior to this.

I was just about to post this exact thought. It also smacks of victim blaming: we said this but it is YOUR fault you misunderstood

[Phoebe]

"...combat [against] manipulation..."

From the Botkinettes.

Oh, that's rich.

[FloraDoraDolly]

After months of radio silence, there are four new MP-3 files from A-S and E - the first two are free!!!

westernconservatory.com

"It's Not About Staying at Home"

Does this mean they are going gangsta and starting a beef with Sarah Malley? :twisted:

[alba]

It's great that they're maturing and realising they're wrong, but I'd have a helluva lot more respect for them if they came out and said it.

It feels weird to use the word "maturing" in reference to women a decade older than me, but I really do think that I, and my peers, am more mature than most thirty-something fundie SAHDs.

Edit: Any grammar nerds want to help me out? Is my sentence above grammatically correct or should it be, "I, and my peers, are", because it's "I am" but "They are". You'd think with a Master's in English I could get this worked out myself, but it's driving me mad :P

[Olive Plant]

It's great that they're maturing and realising they're wrong, but I'd have a helluva lot more respect for them if they came out and said it.

It feels weird to use the word "maturing" in reference to women a decade older than me, but I really do think that I, and my peers, am more mature than most thirty-something fundie SAHDs.

Edit: Any grammar nerds want to help me out? Is my sentence above grammatically correct or should it be, "I, and my peers, are", because it's "I am" but "They are". You'd think with a Master's in English I could get this worked out myself, but it's driving me mad :P

It's are. "My peers and I are" sounds less awkward.

I saw their new stuff, haven't listened yet. I saw the list and I was like, hello, marketing to a disillusioned audience.

[alba]

It's are. "My peers and I are" sounds less awkward.

Hahaha, thanks :D

[Howl]

You need young people to convince other young people that this shiny wonderful life is real and to join and/or not leave.

I saw what you did there. Like!

[louisa05]

You need young people to convince other young people that this shiny wonderful life is real and to join and/or not leave.

That explains the youth giving testimonies about Jesus and their lives to other youth. It really doesn't explain the phenomenon of them dreaming up total lifestyle changes and marketing them, ala Josh Harris. At the Christian school, I could kind of get having a student tell the others why faith mattered, but standing up and telling them "this is how you should behave someday when you have an office job" is an exercise in absurdity. Most people accept that adults with real life experience give better advice than teens who are just speaking hypothetically. Fundagelicalism seems to have no idea that that is true.

[nokidsmom]

Too little, too late. It is just lip service, trying to react to the recent scandals and address their relationship status.

My thoughts exactly. I wasn't surprised that they went all quiet after the DPIAT scandal and are now poking their heads out with a new spin on things they previously preached.

As far as relationship status, the real reason is Geoff. No suitor (and I am sure there's been a few for both E and A-S) can get past their fruitcake of a dad.

[Columbia]

I can’t believe I actually listened to this nonsense, but I wanted to see how much Lourdes is at fault for DPIATR, so I listened to the Good Girls & Problem Guys talk.

Elizabeth, I believe, gives the talk. She starts out talking about how they wanted to build the talk around any of their topics in It’s Not That Complicated. Instead, she and Anna-Sophia (after praying about it) decided to give this talk about a topic “that we didn’t actually get into in a lot of depth in the book, but is one I think that a lot of us might have had on our minds a lot the last few months.â€

The talk is about, “…specifically, how to see clearly, and know what to do in volatile or dangerous situations, and to know how to respond to men who are in sin.†Most of their audience has been brought up worshipping men. Now E expects them to know how to challenge them in only a day?

This talk is fine for the whole family, A-S and E’s parents talked with them about these topics while they were little girls so that they could become the kind of women who can handle these sorts of situations. Glad to know they will never fall when presented with a situation like this.

“We’re all becoming more aware of how easily dangerous, compromising, problematic, confusing, even criminal relationships can jump out and surprise even good, conservative, Christian, homeschooled girls.†I imagine that this was the part of the talk where they flashed Lourdes’ face on the Powerpoint.

It’s dangerous not to grow up knowing about “relationships like this.†E says our biggest danger is not a random scary thug, but someone you know trying to use or manipulate you.

Talk about how “we’re responsible for our own actions,†but we’re not going to give you a list of rules for chaperones and purity and time limits. This talk is about developing a character and mindset to deal with dangerous and unholy situations.

Compare and contrast Abigail (1 Samuel 25) and Bathsheba (2 Samuel 11) and their different attitudes towards David and his sin nature.

David and Abigail: David asks Abigail’s husband Nabal for food for him and his army, Nabal refuses, David throws a tantrum and decides to kill Nabal and everyone with him. Abigail hears about this, gets a bunch of food together, and goes out to meet David on his way to kill them all. She takes the blame on herself, calls her husband a fool, asks David not to kill her household, and David relents.

David and Bathsheba: David sees a woman bathing on her roof, has her sent to him, sleeps with her, and when she conceives he has her husband killed.

Commence Botkinette exegesis:

E starts by telling us this is not a message about all the things a woman must do to keep a man from sinning, because if he does it’s totally her fault. Instead, all the victim blaming is couched in “you weren’t holy/spiritual/Godly enough.†The message is about the duty all Christians have to help keep one another from sin and stumbling. Bathsheba wasn’t responsible for tempting Bathsheba. “David was 100% responsible for his adultery with Bathsheba, and Bathsheba was 100% responsible for her own sin of adultery with David. They each had a moral test, and they each failed.â€

“Bathsheba should not have been bathing on the roof in view of a man who was not her husband.†Apparently the Botkinettes know nothing about mitkam. But Bathsheba’s main test and failure was in giving in to David’s lust and committing adultery. E admits that she may have been pressured, but the text doesn’t say that she was forced. From here on, take a shot each time E says something was not specifically mentioned in the text, and then asserts her own opinion on the narrative which is also not in the text.

Differences between Bathsheba and Abigail’s moral dilemmas:

- One woman feared David more than God, and one feared God more than David

o We don’t know what kind of pressure Bathsheba received from David, she may have been charmed or seduced, simply over-awed, or feared for her life, “but ultimately she let her fear and awe of David trump her fear of God and her duty to obey the law.†(drink!)

o Abigail cared more that David was about to commit a serious crime against God, and that he must not do it

- One woman was strong in her knowledge of what was wrong, and in her readiness to do right, and one was not

o Abigail didn’t have to wrestle through “moral quandaries†to know what was right and wrong. She knew a peace offering was necessary to make up for her husband insulting David. She knew David couldn’t avenge himself through murder.

o “Bathsheba either wasn’t very clear about what was right, or she let herself be confused or manipulated, we’re not really sure, all we know is she allowed herself to be pressured and she gave in to sin.†(drink!)

- One woman loved David like a true friend, the other like a kissing enemy

o One of the main things that motivated Abigail was to preserve David’s reputation as a great man of God, and to keep him from bloodguilt. Confronting him was genuine love.

o Bathsheba let David have his own way. This was not looking out for his best interests.

- One woman appealed to David’s desire to do right, another woman accommodated David’s desire to do wrong

o Abigail was very beautiful, but she didn’t try to charm David into doing right. She used her words to appeal to his conscience. David comments on her wisdom, not beauty.

- One had a good husband, one had a rotten husband

o Bathsheba’s husband was noble and honest. Even a girl receiving lots of love and attention can still have her heart turned by the love and attention of other men. (Lourdes’s picture flashes on screen again.) Bathsheba came from a very good family, and just look what happened to her. “If any girl should have been able to resist a man’s unlawful advances, it should have been Bathsheba.â€

The point: if a woman like Bathsheba could fall under the pressure of “a David sin natureâ€, any of us can as well. (The fear language is strong with this one) If a woman like Abigail can rise up and resist the pressure of “a David sin nature†any of us can as well.

The fact that E thinks that an army coming to kill you, and the most powerful person in the land wanting to sleep with you are comparable is beyond me.

Coming up next: How do we avoid becoming like Lourdes Bathsheba, and be like Abigail instead?

[Snarkle]

If you’re sick of legalism, idolatry, formulas, movements, bandwagons, Christian-subculture trends and man-made rules,

er isn't this exactly what THEY have been pedaling (is that spelled right?) the last few years? It's great if they have decided that isn't the way to go (due to the recent scandals), but what about all the young women that you have enticed into virtual slavery in the mean time?

Grammar and research freak here. The word is "peddling" for selling things (even the crap that the Botkinettes shill), and a person who sells things door to door is a peddler (or cons them, in the Botkins' case), but it could be spelled pedlar as well, but is not as common these days. "Pedaling" would be assumed to be done by one riding a bike. Either way, your terminology is excellent in this case, and while Merriam-Webster just says a peddler is someone who sells door to door, Wikipedia goes full on with this (see especially the bolded):

"A peddler, in British English pedlar, also known as a canvasser, cheapjack, monger, higler or solicitor (with negative connotations since the 16th century), is a traveling vendor of goods. In England, the term was mostly used for travellers hawking goods in the countryside to small towns and villages; they might also be called tinkers or gypsies. In London more specific terms were used, such as costermonger. There has long been a suspicion of dishonest or petty criminal activity associated with pedlars and travellers."

So yes, your choice of peddler/pedlar to describe the Botkinettes in this case is spot on, and applies to others like them as well. Well done!

And my question is, what do they mean by "legalism"?

[anjulibai]

Sounds like more victim blaming.

There's another way to look at the stories of Abigail and Bathsheba.

Abigail was just as threatened as Bathsheba was, if not more so. David was acting like a bully, and she gave in to that out of fear for her own and others lives. Bathsheba may well have feared for her own life; perhaps she thought David would kill her family or her husband.

So in both stories, ultimately the women did the same thing - give in to David's sin. Therefore, they both were sinful themselves.

The Bible, saying what you want it to say since 500 BCE.

[Coco]

Columbia, thank you for doing the report!

wow, the implications of this part are just sickening:

Differences between Bathsheba and Abigail’s moral dilemmas:

- One woman loved David like a true friend, the other like a kissing enemy

o One of the main things that motivated Abigail was to preserve David’s reputation as a great man of God, and to keep him from bloodguilt. Confronting him was genuine love.

o Bathsheba let David have his own way. This was not looking out for his best interests.

If it's truly their response to the DPIAT scandal (how could it be anything else?) that is just so messed up.

[Olive Plant]

Sounds like more victim blaming.

There's another way to look at the stories of Abigail and Bathsheba.

Abigail was just as threatened as Bathsheba was, if not more so. David was acting like a bully, and she gave in to that out of fear for her own and others lives. Bathsheba may well have feared for her own life; perhaps she thought David would kill her family or her husband.

So in both stories, ultimately the women did the same thing - give in to David's sin. Therefore, they both were sinful themselves.

The Bible, saying what you want it to say since 500 BCE.

Abigail isn't a very good helpmeet. She calls her own husband a fool to save her own skin from a warlord. Shame, shame. Then her husband dies and David takes her as a wife. See? Just like Bathsheba, only Abigail was more proactive in dissing her husband first.

[anjulibai]

Abigail isn't a very good helpmeet. She calls her own husband a fool to save her own skin from a warlord. Shame, shame. Then her husband dies and David takes her as a wife. See? Just like Bathsheba, only Abigail was more proactive in dissing her husband first.

Yup, they are really no different.

[nokidsmom]

Well that Good Girls & Problem Guys talk was sure complicated. If that's how they worked out the whole DPIAT scandal to themselves and to appease any questions out there, I wonder how their brains don't explode.

[16strong]

While I think the scandals may have a good deal to do with it, I think the fact the Botkinettes are getting older is causing them to reconsider their platform. Maybe it's really hitting them that "Wow! We're older, and we really haven't done anything. We have no husbands, no kids, no careers. We are supposed to have x, x, and x to be considered successful, but although we are fundie royalty, we still don't have any of it. Our life will be over and we will have done nothing..."

I seriously doubt that criticisms from others have gotten to them. If they haven't after all these years, why would they now? I think the more likely explanation is that their family status has gotten them nowhere and that is causing them to question the validity of their lifestyle. They are the chosen daughters, after all. If even they can't get anyone, then maybe it's time to rethink the lifestyle a bit. However, I don't think they have the balls to support this new platform 100% and escape from fundiedom to seize what they really want.

[Columbia]

Part 2 of What to do if DPIATR Sticks His Hand Up Your Skirt:

How do we develop the character of Abigails, not Bathshebas? Practical steps from the Botkinettes

- Be honest with yourself about your weaknesses

o “Every woman that my sister and I have known who fell into sin of this nature would have said at one point, and some of them even said to us, ‘I could never do that. I’m not that kind of woman’†Just how many of these shameless hussies are the Botkinettes running around with?

o Feeling confident in our immunity to this kind of sin will make us more susceptible

o The Bible talks about men who are liars, flatterers, extortionists, false teachers, opportunists, manipulators (2 Peter 2, 1 Timothy 3, Ephesians 4.) Their victims are: “unstable souls,†“silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,†“like children.â€

o There is a particular kind of person more vulnerable to “this kind of man†and it has to do with their maturity, stability, solidness of their doctrine, and clearness of their conscience. I have absolutely no idea what E is getting at here. All these passages deal with false teachers and people who spread heresies, not DPIATR sticking his hand up your skirt.

o We need to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, but it’s usually the reverse because of sin in our hearts that we’re too naïve to understand the power of.

o “You know, it’s not actually your innocence that a man would try to take advantage of. It would actually be your sin nature. It would actually be the kind of sin that would be easy for a man to prey on like unbiblical neediness, dependency, vanity, idolatry, lack of self-control, a desire for attention, a too-strong interest in men, lack of emotional self-control, or a tendency to make too much provision for the flesh.†(“make provision for the flesh?†what does that even mean??) There you have it folks. That’s why men stick their hands up your skirts.

o Whatever one sows, that will he also reap: don’t listen to or read questionable media and expect to be pure, and mature, and have a strong grip on reality. It’s mostly the same old “emotional purity†message. Don’t admire the wrong things in men and then expect to be drawn to holiness and maturity in men instead of charm and humor. Don’t really, really want boys to notice and like you, and then expect that you will respond with righteousness and holiness and purity when boys notice you.

- Become a strong woman (seriously??)

o “There are people who accuse Christianity of teaching that all women are supposed to submit to and please all men, and that Godly women are supposed to be easily led, unquestioning, acquiescing, not thinking for themselves. This is false. I think we can all probably agree with this pretty easily. And don’t let anybody try to tell you that this is the way God wants you to be.†(The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.)

o Religions invented by men want women to be doormats. But Scripture wasn’t written by man, so it doesn’t say that. Women should be wise, sensible, sober-minded, sane, strong, fearless, dignified, discreet, open their mouths to speak wisdom and the law. God doesn’t want women to be silly, easily led, vain, simple, fearful, or idle. I wonder how many girls in the audience heard this for the first time.

o “You do not have a Biblical duty to submit to any man who is not in direct authority over you.†And even if he is, his authority doesn’t extend to telling you to sin.

o There’s nothing else on how to be a strong woman, or what a strong woman looks like. There’s nothing on how to be a strong woman when acting like one gets you labeled “hussy†and “feminist.â€

- Be close to the right people first, and embrace their accountability

o God has given us parents, godly older women, and siblings to keep an eye on us.

o Open and frequent communication with godly and mature parents is one of the best safeguards there is. Parents should start talking about molestation and abuse when children are pretty young (A-Swas 6 or 7 when they first started talking about it.) Actually, I thought this part was pretty good. It seemed like solid advice for protecting your children from predators. E quotes a statistic saying a child who has suffered molestation has to tell an average of 7 people before one will believe them. A-S sounds very confident that her parents would have listened to her, had she come to them with a problem. I sure hope it’s true.

o God’s law requires that parents, “fathers in particular,†be very involved in their child’s life.

o A-S quotes Deuteronomy 22, verse 13. If a bride is accused of not being a virgin, the bride is not the defendant, her father is, and he has to provide proof that she is a virgin. If she’s guilty, she is stoned to death at the door of her father’s house, because the daughter is under her father’s care, “and her father was responsible for knowing that the purity of the bride he was giving away had been preserved for the husband.†“The father pays the penalty for his negligence. Her guilt is taken to his doorstep, her reputation is laid at his door… Why had he not trained her to seek purity? Why had he not trained her to come and tell him if something had happened?â€

o The way we act around boys, our social activities, the purity of how we present ourselves are all our parents’ business

- Think in terms of having a positive plan for how you want your conduct to be encouraging to the young men around you, and to make them better men

o “…don’t fly into these situations on autopilot, that was part of Bathsheba’s problemâ€

o Don’t have to be passive responders, we need a plan to keep us from natural impulses and unedifying conversation, and it needs to be a vision that’s bigger than what we don’t want to be

o Have a positive vision for what qualities you want to stand out about you

- Have a positive vision for what you want to accomplish in your interaction with young men, rather than what you just don’t want to do

o Is your goal getting them to pay attention to you, and to advertise your qualifications as a suitable wife?

o What can we offer the young men with our friendship, and how can we be helping them?

o Men should work on: overcome lust, avoid flirtatious women, overcome a love of the world, abide in God’s word, gain wisdom, keep righteous company, be diligent, honor the instruction of parents, keep conversation clean and sober-minded; we can directly affect how we help them work on these

- Know without question what’s right and wrong (E speaking now; I’m having a terrible time keeping the two separate)

o “Abigail was able to act quickly because she knew what was right for David to do and what was wrong for David to do.â€

o “We need to know exactly what is right and wrong for the men around us to do and we need to know what is acceptable for us to do in response.â€

o This comes from studying your Bible, especially case law in the Old Testament. These laws lay down a girl’s duties and recourses, and explain how the perpetrators should be dealt with. “God has told us what He thinks about situations like this, if we will just go look it up.â€

o Rushdoony’s Institutes of Biblical Law is recommended as a good foundation for starting to understand the law. You know what isn’t recommended? Calling the police. Going to the authorities. Seriously, more than halfway through this and nothing has been laid out about what to do when DPIATR sticks his hand up your skirt beyond “tell your parents.â€

o E suggests studying the law because it enlightens the simple, gives understanding, makes us wiser than our enemies, converts the soul, etc. (lots of references from Psalms and Proverbs) She mentions nothing about it “bringing death†(Romans, E, if you’d like to look it up)

o “If you really know without question what’s true, and what’s not true, nobody will ever be able to control you with flattery, with threats, with false guilt, pity, lies, false accusations, a false perception of reality, or a false sense of morality.†And then all the little girls marched out and burned their So Much More books in the parking lot. (I think that was my favorite quote from the talk.)

o Manipulators look for people they can try to twist and confuse. If we’re grounded in what’s right, “we will be able to reprove these men in the spirit of Abigail.â€

- Make a plan

o Have a plan in your mind for what you would do if someone “asked you for your phone number, or stuffed you in a getaway vehicle, or made inappropriate comments, or just looked deeply in your eyes and told you how beautiful you were and asked you if you were looking for a boyfriend.â€

o You need a plan because if you’re like most women, your natural response will be to freeze up; it’s a documented fact, ya’ll. E (I think it’s still E) says she’s had to deal with all these things except being stuffed in a getaway vehicle, and she had no response.

o E has now figured out a pat answer, and practices it.

o “Don’t walk into a situation where men will be without having thought through what you would do if something or someone went wrong.â€

Part three deals with 4 different kinds of men, and how to keep yourself safe. Stay tuned.