Conservative guide to dealing with a Liberal Pope

[clarinetpower]

patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2014/07/ten-things-to-remember-if-pope-francis-upsets-you.html

Posted by a very conservative Catholic who ignores the stuff she doesn't like and screams her head off about her own views, conveniently pretending this pope never said to knock it off.

[LaLele]

{L_OFFTOPIC} :

Some have given up on Pope Francis. Others say he is “the false prophet†who will accompany the anti Christ in the end times.

Pssst Father, you former Evangelicalism is showing.

[DGayle]

I realized a while back that you can tell how much a particular Catholic loves to HATE people based on how much they can't stand this pope.

[louisa05]

I actually find it pretty amusing that all these uber-conservative Catholics are feeling so uncomfortable with this pope. These are the people that screamed "you MUST adhere to every word from the mouth of the Pope" for three decades and wanted liberal Catholics who pointed to social justice teachings thrown out of the Church.

Now another one at Patheos is posting some drivel about how the real Catholic tradition is to just ignore the Pope. She also posted a whole piece about how unhappy she is that Francis does not wear the fur stoles and fancy shoes and all that over the top stuff that Benedict draped himself in daily. That plain white cassock is apparently harming her faith, poor thing.

[PennySycamore]

The conservative Catholic heads are gonna explode if Francis makes celibacy optional.

I love this Pope! He gives some hope for the Church, not that this atheist is going back.

[Marianne]

Pope Francis is very good to speak, but we're waiting for real things to happens. Is he going to change the catechism of the Catholic Church ? Speaking it's simple, to act is more difficult. If he continues to speak and to does nothing, he's no better than our president François Hollande (who is very good to say how much you should help the poor and how much free healthcare, free justice, and free school are important, and how much you should fight liberalism, but who does nothing.

"Your Holiness, yourself had written in a letter that you sent me. Consciousness is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience.

"And I repeat here. Everyone has his idea of good and evil and everyone must choose to follow the good and fight evil according to his idea actually. That would be enough to live in a better world. "" ( http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/ ... lfari.html one day the interview is on the website of the vatican, one day it's not...) Without being a "There is one truth in the world", dear Pope, there is things that ARE good and evil, whatever people think.

(Speaking of catholic church, I was reading an interview of a important man in Regnum Christi and it's so sad, it seems that the heritage of Marcial Maciel is alive... :( )

[fun2beme]

Pope Francis is very good to speak, but we're waiting for real things to happens. Is he going to change the catechism of the Catholic Church ? Speaking it's simple, to act is more difficult. If he continues to speak and to does nothing, he's no better than our president François Hollande (who is very good to say how much you should help the poor and how much free healthcare, free justice, and free school are important, and how much you should fight liberalism, but who does nothing.

As a practicing Catholic, I don't really see why people (Catholics and non-Catholics) think Pope Francis is so liberal. He hasn't instituted any major changes; I think saying that male prostitutes should use condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS in Africa was as progressive as he got. His philosophy is the same - the homosexual lifestyle is morally wrong but OK if they remain celibate, we shouldn't condemn them for this, etc. Basically what all the popes have been saying, just in a more gentle way. Telling women they can breastfeed during Mass isn't really liberal to me.

Pope Francis follows the church doctrine but just emphasizes the socal justice aspect and service aspect of it. I think he has demonstarated a true desire to interact with the troubled, sick, and poor, and seems to be a genuinely kind-hearted person, and I love his humility, but can't say that he's ground-breaking.

[louisa05]

As a practicing Catholic, I don't really see why people (Catholics and non-Catholics) think Pope Francis is so liberal. He hasn't instituted any major changes; I think saying that male prostitutes should use condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS in Africa was as progressive as he got. His philosophy is the same - the homosexual lifestyle is morally wrong but OK if they remain celibate, we shouldn't condemn them for this, etc. Basically what all the popes have been saying, just in a more gentle way. Telling women they can breastfeed during Mass isn't really liberal to me.

Pope Francis follows the church doctrine but just emphasizes the socal justice aspect and service aspect of it. I think he has demonstarated a true desire to interact with the troubled, sick, and poor, and seems to be a genuinely kind-hearted person, and I love his humility, but can't say that he's ground-breaking.

The uber-conservative wing of the church, especially in America where that faction has married themselves to the Republican party, would like to forget or even eliminate the social justice teachings that he is emphasizing. A friend of mine in The Most Conservative Diocese in America informed me a few years ago that her priest told the congregation that the church's economic teachings, for example, are "outdated" and "not relevant". That is not what we are now hearing from Rome. Hence, the desire of some to give themselves permission to ignore the pope.

The change in emphasis (clearest when he said we don't need to talk about nothing but abortion et al) is definitely a shift compared to Benedict and to some degree JP2. He also seems open to more practical approaches. I think the difference there, particularly compared to his predecessor, is that a good portion of his life was spent in direct ministry. Benedict's life in the church was spent in bureaucracy and theological pursuit--and as the 'enforcer" of correct doctrine. Francis saw the need for social justice in the streets and seems to have seen why Catholics in the real world outside the Vatican don't follow all of the "correct doctrine". And some concrete acts are happening. They may seem small if you have little experience of the super conservative church, but they have an impact. Francis has expressed a desire to eliminate the out of control clericalism in the church. A concrete step in that direction is that he has banned the title of monsignor--what is mostly an honorary given to some priests. Next door to us in The Most Conservative Diocese in America where priests are all but worshipped, every priest who reaches 20 or 25 yrs has been given that title. What most regular parishioners don't seem to know is that getting it required the payment of fees to the Vatican. Francis wants a "poor church for the poor", thus raking in money to give titles to priests is gone. And the distasteful practice of some having special titles with it, as a commenter on a story about the ban said so well, one cannot imagine Jesus giving out "Apostle of the Year" plaques, so it is best that there not be excessive awarding of priests either.

[wayward]

It sounds like Pope Francis has also made some changes to the top leadership of the Catholic Church. Most people wouldn’t notice this, but conservatives might see it as a threat.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/pope- ... 2D11761283

[louisa05]

It sounds like Pope Francis has also made some changes to the top leadership of the Catholic Church. Most people wouldn’t notice this, but conservatives might see it as a threat.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/pope- ... 2D11761283

Oh, they definitely see it as a threat.

And the power to appoint the cardinals who will choose his successor and to appoint bishops is where real change can happen. Benedict was the product of JP2 loading the College of Cardinals with conservatives. Francis is the product, I think, of a lot of those cardinals realizing that the church must grow and change and meet the world where it is rather than folding its arms and enforcing doctrine.

As for doctrine, catechism, and all that...we have to remember that change is slow and measured. But the October Synod could very well be a start in changing some things. Most are expecting a change in the approach to divorced and remarried members, which the uber-conservatives are dreading and many at Patheos are frantically explaining why no change in that area is possible, ever, ever, ever.

[Marianne]

The preparatory document on the Synod on the Family said nothing new, nor given any hope for change in the doctrine of the Church. There was nothing new inside.

Ans speaking about poor church, he can go to France. One of my closest friends is priest, and suffer of cancer. His salary is ridiculous, less than the French minimum wage. Ha has a house, but must pay water, electricity, gas, (no heater- too expensive and his house is fucking cold ...) etc ... Some treatments for his cancer are not reimbursed by Social Security. He have NOT the money to pay for it, because what he earns as money is barely enough to feed him (and he feeds the homeless in his parish, and it is expensive, all parishioners are very good to say "it's beautiful what you do", but nobody does it instead). He is too humble to ask for help in the diocese, and knowing the financial situation of the diocese, he would receive almost nothing (and the bishop doesn't like him). So if me and his sister do not help him financially, he would suffer horribly. So "the poor church for the poor" already exists (but in secular country). and it is not cool for people within the church.

Also, I trust this priest about what he says on the catholic church. He is traditionalist in appearance (cassock, vatican II Mass in Latin, Gregorian chant), but very liberal in reality (even if he thinks that abortion is murder, he is for abortion law because it helps to reduce the number of abortion, for the rights of LGBTQ people, for the ordination of women (he fights against his bishop who wants to ban altar servers girl). But against the marriage of priests). What he says about pope Francis is that we will have a change in the speech (more liberal, but lower quality theological), but no really in the act (or like JP II, you know. Change in the liturgy and all, but we know how he was). The only positive thing he sees may be the reduction of the influence of Opus Dei or Regnum Christi.

[alba]

Speaking as someone who doesn't have a Catholic background, I can't help wondering how much of what the pope says is an attempt to placate and hold onto membership as the world around it grows more liberal and, in general, less religious. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I know several people my age who all say the same thing: They were brought up Catholic, they love the ritual and ceremony of the services and they firmly believe in God and Jesus, but they cannot reconcile their own morality with what the Church teaches. I kind of get the impression Pope Francis is trying to have it all by saying things to appease more liberal chuch members (even though his comments are still very conservative, I think they give some liberal Catholics hope that the Church is slowly changing), but not actually doing anything so as not to lose more conservative members.

[Marianne]

Speaking as someone who doesn't have a Catholic background, I can't help wondering how much of what the pope says is an attempt to placate and hold onto membership as the world around it grows more liberal and, in general, less religious. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I know several people my age who all say the same thing: They were brought up Catholic, they love the ritual and ceremony of the services and they firmly believe in God and Jesus, but they cannot reconcile their own morality with what the Church teaches. I kind of get the impression Pope Francis is trying to have it all by saying things to appease more liberal chuch members (even though his comments are still very conservative, I think they give some liberal Catholics hope that the Church is slowly changing), but not actually doing anything so as not to lose more conservative members.

I'm not sure it will works. Plus, it depends in the local church. The bishop of the diocese, the priest of the parish, reach more people thant the Pope at Rome. Reading Freejinger and blog, it seems for me that the American church is very politicized (liberal VS conservatives, as can be seen with the conflict LCWR/ CMSWR no "middle"), with big opposition. Plus, the pro-life are very strong, so it will not help (here, i've never heard about abortion during a mass, and the catholic schools makes interventions about abortion, birth control, AIDS that are against church doctrine, I guess, but it's always a big scandals if a catholic schools tell something against abortion).

[louisa05]

The preparatory document on the Synod on the Family said nothing new, nor given any hope for change in the doctrine of the Church. There was nothing new inside.

Ans speaking about poor church, he can go to France. One of my closest friends is priest, and suffer of cancer. His salary is ridiculous, less than the French minimum wage. Ha has a house, but must pay water, electricity, gas, (no heater- too expensive and his house is fucking cold ...) etc ... Some treatments for his cancer are not reimbursed by Social Security. He have NOT the money to pay for it, because what he earns as money is barely enough to feed him (and he feeds the homeless in his parish, and it is expensive, all parishioners are very good to say "it's beautiful what you do", but nobody does it instead). He is too humble to ask for help in the diocese, and knowing the financial situation of the diocese, he would receive almost nothing (and the bishop doesn't like him). So if me and his sister do not help him financially, he would suffer horribly. So "the poor church for the poor" already exists (but in secular country). and it is not cool for people within the church.

Also, I trust this priest about what he says on the catholic church. He is traditionalist in appearance (cassock, vatican II Mass in Latin, Gregorian chant), but very liberal in reality (even if he thinks that abortion is murder, he is for abortion law because it helps to reduce the number of abortion, for the rights of LGBTQ people, for the ordination of women (he fights against his bishop who wants to ban altar servers girl). But against the marriage of priests). What he says about pope Francis is that we will have a change in the speech (more liberal, but lower quality theological), but no really in the act (or like JP II, you know. Change in the liturgy and all, but we know how he was). The only positive thing he sees may be the reduction of the influence of Opus Dei or Regnum Christi.

Marianne--I'm sorry about your friend. That is wrong and should not be happening. But you have to remember the Catholic Church is a huge international body. And while priests may not have enough where you are, they have much more than they need in other places. Five years ago, the now retired archbishop of my diocese took money out of the diocese's annual appeal--a yearly fundraising drive that is supposed to support inner city Catholic schools, the retirement home for elderly priests (and their healthcare--so precisely the issue you cite), seminary costs for new priests, supplemental costs for religious education in parishes, etc...--this archbishop took $500,000 out of it to build himself a brand new home for his retirement. In a city where the current median selling price of a home is $148,000. At the parish I worked at, staff salaries were frozen and health insurance costs were skyrocketing (over $2000 a month to cover a family and most teachers in the school didn't even make $40,000 a year), but every single priest drove a brand new car and they had closed their modest rectory and bought three separate houses in the neighborhood to house the three priests individually. Drove by last week and noticed that the priests have now been given brand new garages for those cars, too. Not a poor church there.

And the change in tone does matter. I understand why people outside the church would think it does not. I have seen my parish priest emboldened in the last year to start new projects to address poverty in our community and to ask the parish to change how it spends its money. (Different parish, btw, he lives in four rooms attached to the church and drives a modest car). The associate priest abruptly abandoned his "Being Catholic: You're Doing It Wrong" homily series. It wasn't really called that but might as well have been, it featured "no flip flops at mass" and "you're holding up your hands wrong to receive communion" and we had been promised at least three more weeks of it. But in the middle of it the pope talked publicly about the church welcoming everyone and our priest had a change of heart and instead talked about how he didn't mean to sound as if everyone was not welcome in our parish, but he realized that is exactly how it sounded and it was wrong. We have not heard a single word about abortion since the famous papal interview. Our senior priest heaved a sigh of relief and was able to get on with expanding the food bank and other projects that benefit our community way more than a life chain protest (which the evangelicals sponsored this year).

And if you think that conservatives are pacified by no concrete changes, you don't know any. They are angry and upset and claiming themselves more Catholic than the pope. Talk of the church's economic teachings and the teachings that obligate us to care for immigrants and refugees--that alone is enough to make American Conservative Catholics very unhappy. And it is a change. Not a change in doctrine. But a change in emphasis that truly does mean something in the trenches. And the conservative wing knows that and they are terrified.

[Marianne]

Marianne--I'm sorry about your friend. That is wrong and should not be happening. But you have to remember the Catholic Church is a huge international body. And while priests may not have enough where you are, they have much more than they need in other places. Five years ago, the now retired archbishop of my diocese took money out of the diocese's annual appeal--a yearly fundraising drive that is supposed to support inner city Catholic schools, the retirement home for elderly priests (and their healthcare--so precisely the issue you cite), seminary costs for new priests, supplemental costs for religious education in parishes, etc...--this archbishop took $500,000 out of it to build himself a brand new home for his retirement. In a city where the current median selling price of a home is $148,000. At the parish I worked at, staff salaries were frozen and health insurance costs were skyrocketing (over $2000 a month to cover a family and most teachers in the school didn't even make $40,000 a year), but every single priest drove a brand new car and they had closed their modest rectory and bought three separate houses in the neighborhood to house the three priests individually. Drove by last week and noticed that the priests have now been given brand new garages for those cars, too. Not a poor church there.

And the change in tone does matter. I understand why people outside the church would think it does not. I have seen my parish priest emboldened in the last year to start new projects to address poverty in our community and to ask the parish to change how it spends its money. (Different parish, btw, he lives in four rooms attached to the church and drives a modest car). The associate priest abruptly abandoned his "Being Catholic: You're Doing It Wrong" homily series. It wasn't really called that but might as well have been, it featured "no flip flops at mass" and "you're holding up your hands wrong to receive communion" and we had been promised at least three more weeks of it. But in the middle of it the pope talked publicly about the church welcoming everyone and our priest had a change of heart and instead talked about how he didn't mean to sound as if everyone was not welcome in our parish, but he realized that is exactly how it sounded and it was wrong. We have not heard a single word about abortion since the famous papal interview. Our senior priest heaved a sigh of relief and was able to get on with expanding the food bank and other projects that benefit our community way more than a life chain protest (which the evangelicals sponsored this year).

And if you think that conservatives are pacified by no concrete changes, you don't know any. They are angry and upset and claiming themselves more Catholic than the pope. Talk of the church's economic teachings and the teachings that obligate us to care for immigrants and refugees--that alone is enough to make American Conservative Catholics very unhappy. And it is a change. Not a change in doctrine. But a change in emphasis that truly does mean something in the trenches. And the conservative wing knows that and they are terrified.

Wow, it's wrong in so many level with your bishop :shock: While being an atheist, I have a lot of love and respect for the church, and I sometimes wondered if somes bishop and me have read the same Cathechism of the Catholic Church. It's very cool that your priest have a change in his heart :)

Btw, I think that secularism in the country play a big role on how the church works and how you see it.

Your Conservative wants to built their own church, it seems. I've always had the image of the church as something who cares about the unloved of the society like immigrants, prisonners, people on drugs, Roms...

[alba]

I'm not sure it will works. Plus, it depends in the local church. The bishop of the diocese, the priest of the parish, reach more people thant the Pope at Rome. Reading Freejinger and blog, it seems for me that the American church is very politicized (liberal VS conservatives, as can be seen with the conflict LCWR/ CMSWR no "middle"), with big opposition. Plus, the pro-life are very strong, so it will not help (here, i've never heard about abortion during a mass, and the catholic schools makes interventions about abortion, birth control, AIDS that are against church doctrine, I guess, but it's always a big scandals if a catholic schools tell something against abortion).

Oh, I don't think it will work, either. I think that, if this is Pope Francis's intention, it's going to backfire spectacularly and the liberal Catholics will still leave for more progressive denominations while the conservatives will become disillusioned. But the way he talks and doesn't act does seem to me like he's trying to keep everyone happy (key word being "trying" :P).

[DGayle]

I actually find it pretty amusing that all these uber-conservative Catholics are feeling so uncomfortable with this pope. These are the people that screamed "you MUST adhere to every word from the mouth of the Pope" for three decades and wanted liberal Catholics who pointed to social justice teachings thrown out of the Church.

Now another one at Patheos is posting some drivel about how the real Catholic tradition is to just ignore the Pope. She also posted a whole piece about how unhappy she is that Francis does not wear the fur stoles and fancy shoes and all that over the top stuff that Benedict draped himself in daily. That plain white cassock is apparently harming her faith, poor thing.

It's making it harder for her to reconcile her privilege with her religion when Francis dresses plainly.

[louisa05]

It's making it harder for her to reconcile her privilege with her religion when Francis dresses plainly.

Exactly. It was all wrapped up in the "need for beauty", but I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Vivi_music]

Speaking as someone who doesn't have a Catholic background, I can't help wondering how much of what the pope says is an attempt to placate and hold onto membership as the world around it grows more liberal and, in general, less religious. I'm in my mid-twenties, and I know several people my age who all say the same thing: They were brought up Catholic, they love the ritual and ceremony of the services and they firmly believe in God and Jesus, but they cannot reconcile their own morality with what the Church teaches. I kind of get the impression Pope Francis is trying to have it all by saying things to appease more liberal chuch members (even though his comments are still very conservative, I think they give some liberal Catholics hope that the Church is slowly changing), but not actually doing anything so as not to lose more conservative members.

I can only speak from my own experience: I live in a society that used to be uniformly catholic 50-60 years ago. Since the 60's, religion practice has been in decline. My family is the best example: while all where very religious only a few years ago, now my generation was raised in a very very liberal catholicism. The church had to adapt to the rest of society. They had become much more liberal than the previous popes. I'm not very religious myself but I work with nuns on a day-to-day basis and most of them are very open-minded when it comes to social issues. The new pope is really refreshing for them and they love him because it makes them feel reinvigorated. That being said, I agree with you to a certain extant. I'm also skeptic about the end results of the ''Francis-effect''. I don't really see the young generation going back to church en masse. But at least, I like the effect he is having on the people inside the church. Most of the nuns said that thanks to Francis, their institution seems more in sync' with the rest of the world. That is coming from women who have been members of the church for 40+ years.