No Ken Alexander, marital rape is not "complicated"

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ken weighs in with a wall o'text on the Red Herring post. He writes:

 

"The issue of can there be marital rape or not will not be answered on this blog because the answer would be so complex one would have to write a book to explain it all. Certainly in the case of estranged or separated spouses there can be marital rape, but when a married couple is living together and they have sex, I think the courts would be remiss to throw a marital rape charge at a husband, although others charges like assault may well be warranted. No husband has the right to use force on a wife no matter if it is used for sex or for other things.

 

So here is our bottom line. We do not need to throw out the inflammatory words of "marital rape" when discussing sex within a marriage. We can rightfully stand on the principle that no husband should force himself on a wife sexually, or non-sexually, period."

 

Actually, it's not really complicated at all. There is no charge of "marital rape". If there is sex without consent, it's rape (or sexual assault if you live in Canada). Period.

[2xx1xy1JD]

As for the whole "separation as discipline" thing, it reminds me of one of my more horrific cases.

I have to be vague about the details to preserve confidentiality, but it involved a man who loudly professed to being a "good Christian husband" while clearly being seen by everyone else as dangerous and abusive. This took place before the internet era, but I could see this fellow easily following someone like Cabinetman. The custody battle had been extremely nasty, and it included things like my client getting his wife locked up for 24 hours on a mental health warrant, my client making allegations to child protection officials, and my client producing a weapon while going to supervised visits and police using tear gas to get him out of the building. Finally, he wanted me to make an offer to his wife: no more custody battle....if she would agree to spend one night with him "as man and wife".

I'm not sure what was more gross - the fact that he was blatantly trying to coerce his wife into sex, or the fact that he actually tried to dress up this threat in Christian language and make himself sound like this wonderful, faithful Christian husband.

[Needless to say, I never made the offer.]

[Jesse911]

So it's assault if you hit your wife with your fists but it's totally cool if you violate her with your penis, but it's only ok if your living together? I think kens just trolling us from loris blog.

[itsnotmeitsu]

I can see where Ken thinks he's right. In fundie world, a woman doesn't control her body, her husband does. It's his. You can't object to the use of something you don't own. For the rest of us, no means no. Thank God our rules aren't made in fundie world.

[littlemommy]

Ken, you are gross. Your wife is gross. Your life together is sad AND gross.

I talked to my dental hygienist the other day about the Duggars and told her to look up FJ. Maybe she'll read about Ken. Maybe she'll spread the word in her dental circle. And maybe you deserve that, Ken.

They are all just your own words after all.

[salex]

I wonder if Ken is really as stupid as he sounds. Has he actually made it to his advanced age (similar to mine) without ever recognizing that the world is filled with people who have it far far worse than he and Lorri, where charges of marital rape would not stem from a man like him coercing a woman like Lorri to put out when she was tired? And I understand it. It took me a while to recognize that not everyone operates in the same little world as me-- including people who look, act, and live publically the same.

I wonder, how did Lorri get to be her age, and acting as an advisor to women, without hearing a few horror stories that would require a response beyond "oh, you should be more obedient." Didn't ken ever hear of anything more shocking in a marriage than sisters who didn't put out enough for their husbands?

I'm not a counselor, but I know people whose husbands threatened to kill their children then commit suicide if the woman ever tried to leave. Young adult children who would not leave the nest unless their mother did, for fear their minister father would beat her to death--which no one outside the family knew was going on. Men who hold down good jobs, are active in their church and occasionally pull a gun on their wife.

So, if the woman is beaten and bleeding, assault might apply, but not rape, eh Ken. (we know you read here). What is he uses a broom handle-- or a knife? Would that be sexual assault, or do you somehow think, Ken, that he beat her up as foreplay then they had nice normal, well lubricated penis in vagina sex that she surely enjoyed or at least had given him permission to have any time when she (made the mistake) of marrying the man.

WTF Ken

Seriously , WTF?

:cray-cray:

[ILoveJellybeans]

Oh Ken, its not that complicated.

The rule for sex is that each time you want to have sex with someone, you have to ask them. The answer must then be an enthusiastic yes (not three no's and an "oh alright then"). If the person says yes, have sex. If they say no, no begging, go wank and get over it.

No, being married to someone/dating them/having previously had sex with them is not a consent for all sexual acts, sex is something you have to consent to each time.

Anyone you have sex with must be able to understand sex and give informed consent-nobody who is underage, no animals, no unconscious people, nobody who is too drunk to consent.

If someone says stop while you are having sex with them, stop.

Not complicated at all.

[GeoBQn]

I tried saying in one of the previous threads that marriage does not equal consent for every single sexual encounter within the marriage. Ken acted like he didn't understand what that combination of words meant.

[FJismyheadship]

On another note: You may want sex, but if you don't feel comfortable with something your partner is doing or wants to do, they need to STOP. If you say STOP and they don't, doesn't that count as rape too? Even if you were already having sex and enjoying yourself, but they change to a position that you do not feel comfortable with and you say so?

[LilyRose]

You would need to write a book to get to the answer? No Ken you wouldn't- look I can do it in a couple of lines:

Having sex with anybody who does not want to have sex with you at that point in time is rape; it doesn't matter if that person is your wife, your fiancée, your girl friend, a casual acquaintance or your Great Aunt Mildred.

[2xx1xy1JD]

There's also a difference between making a deliberate decision to say yes to something, even if you are pushing your comfort zone, and feeling like you MUST say yes all the time.

I've had some cases where wives complained bitterly about their husbands during divorce proceedings, and said that they felt their husbands were demanding and controlling or even abusive. In one case, a wife actually made a booklet of reasons that she believed her husband was evil. One of those reasons was the fact that he wanted BJs.

Now, once we probed a bit more, it was clear that these particular husbands weren't abusive at all. They weren't fundie, and they simply had no idea that their wives had been taught to always defer to the husband's wishes and never express their own views.

Fundie culture seems to set couples up for failure. Any man who wants to be decent is basically forced to be a mind-reader, constantly checking in with his wife and trying to figure out how she REALLY feels when she won't ever tell him directly and even fakes agreement and satisfaction. He can't really ask for anything that could be seen as more demanding, because if she won't say no, he can't know if she is really willing or if she just feels that she has to go along. One of the things that my husband has explicitly told me that he likes about me is that I don't play head games and I'm honest about my feelings. I'm not afraid to say "no", so when I say "yes", he can trust that I really mean it (with anything, not just in the bedroom). With me, "yes" will never mean, "fine, I'll go along with this but secretly resent it the whole time and remember my resentment forever until I explode".

[DGayle]

So if his wife tied him down and started shoving things into his ass against his will, would that not he rape?

[feministxtian]

So if his wife tied him down and started shoving things into his ass against his will, would that not he rape?

That would never happen in Ken's world...sweet submissive wifey would only shove things in his ass if he willed it.

[salex]

That would never happen in Ken's world...sweet submissive wifey would only shove things in his ass if he willed it.

Wait. Sweet and submissive? I thought we were talking about Lorri?

That said I can see ken suggesting that to discipline a misbehaving wife. Per his posts she is not supposed like the punishment...

[DGayle]

Wait. Sweet and submissive? I thought we were talking about Lorri?

That said I can see ken suggesting that to discipline a misbehaving wife. Per his posts she is not supposed like the punishment...

The bolded sure sounds a lot like Christian Grey.

[cindyluvs24]

Sounds like they compromised. She lubes it up and he's done in ten minutes. Perhaps that's what he means by "not complicated at all."

[OkToBeTakei]

Sex is burning down America. Some crap about Condolezza and the fact that the only way to marry is like ALL Lori's kids weddings. (She says this a lot.) We do xyz at ALL my children's weddings. This is a tradition at ALL my children's weddings. Like two are married huh? :lol:

Anyway. Woman getting nuttier by the day.