Why Ken Alexander is really on FJ

[LainieR]

Does my heart good to know that there are still rocking chair parents out there. My husband and I rocked our little ones a million miles when they were little. My son particularly loved to be rocked and sang to-wouldn't fall asleep any other way.

They are big kids now and I look back at those days and smile. I don't have to remember a power struggle because there wasn't one. Just the words of my mom ringing in my ears saying, "enjoy it...they'll be grown in the blink of an eye". And it's so true. One day they are dependent on you for everything, and the next you're trying to think what you'll do when you get them raised and they are grown and gone.

I look at the advice Lori gives women and I want to cry. Because she is teaching them to turn some of the best years of their lives into an all out war. I know it's hard when they have a million different needs that need to be met, but meet them. Don't make it easy on yourself at their expense, because it's over before you know it, and any sacrifice you make it worth it for their security.

You raise kind kids by being a kind parent. It doesn't have to be a battle. You are not at war.

***Rant over....steps down off soapbox***

Thank you. This made my day. I'm having a tough time with my toddler. My easy going happy kid is having meltdowns right left and centre (we hold him, not hit him). I'm completely overwhelmed and exhausted to be honest because I'm pregnant and kiddo still nurses at night. He only naps at home in someone's arms, preferably mine. Our recliner that's in his room has indentations in the arms from where his head rests. Thank you for the reminder that gentle parenting isn't easier,but that it is better, and that one day I'll miss this.

[polecat]

Thank you. This made my day. I'm having a tough time with my toddler. My easy going happy kid is having meltdowns right left and centre (we hold him, not hit him). I'm completely overwhelmed and exhausted to be honest because I'm pregnant and kiddo still nurses at night. He only naps at home in someone's arms, preferably mine. Our recliner that's in his room has indentations in the arms from where his head rests. Thank you for the reminder that gentle parenting isn't easier and that one day I'll miss this.

Your little guy is going through some big changes, and your milk may be changing a bit, too, in preparation for the new little one. I nursed through two pregnancies and tandem nursed as well (three at one point). I can tell you that my memories of tandem nursing are definitely amongst the sweetest. One time still stands out in my mind, when my firstborn reached across and put his hand on his newborn brother's head. I was overcome with nursing hormones and new-mama emotion, lol.

I'd agree that gentle parenting isn't necessarily easier, but I'd say it's exponentially more rewarding. *hugs* mama. You're doing a fantastic job.

[latraviata]

Your little guy is going through some big changes, and your milk may be changing a bit, too, in preparation for the new little one. I nursed through two pregnancies and tandem nursed as well (three at one point). I can tell you that my memories of tandem nursing are definitely amongst the sweetest. One time still stands out in my mind, when my firstborn reached across and put his hand on his newborn brother's head. I was overcome with nursing hormones and new-mama emotion, lol.

I'd agree that gentle parenting isn't necessarily easier, but I'd say it's exponentially more rewarding. *hugs* mama. You're doing a fantastic job.

I second that, hang in there, it will be over, I promise!

[Koala]

Thank you. This made my day. I'm having a tough time with my toddler. My easy going happy kid is having meltdowns right left and centre (we hold him, not hit him). I'm completely overwhelmed and exhausted to be honest because I'm pregnant and kiddo still nurses at night. He only naps at home in someone's arms, preferably mine. Our recliner that's in his room has indentations in the arms from where his head rests. Thank you for the reminder that gentle parenting isn't easier and that one day I'll miss this.

I can so relate to everything you wrote, right down to the nursing one, while pregnant with the other. My first didn't nap without me either-wanted no part of it, so I used that as an excuse to get in a good nap myself. It is mind numbingly exhausting, but I do promise that by the time he is 10 you will have the rose colored glasses tightly in place :lol: Now I look back at the videos and pictures of those days and all I can think is how lucky I am to be their mother. They've been the joy of my life, and I'd do it all over again in an instant.

Good thoughts coming your way- take good care of yourself

[OkToBeTakei]

Ken, you are not an outsider. You are a member of FJ.

We are not "allowing" you in for a time. We did not make a special exception for you. You joined just like everyone else.

:lol:

[LainieR]

I second that, hang in there, it will be over, I promise!

Thanks. He's an incrediably sweet and gentle child and I just need to remind myself that being almost two is a tough job.

ETA: Ken, in my eyes, you are an evil individual.

[latraviata]

The Dutch have very sensible laws for protecting children. I can't tell you how many cases I saw that started out as a 'spanking' for punishment and the parent administering the 'spanking' was angry and lost control of him or herself. So the intent may be as a 'loving correction' (to use Ken's words), but, as one FJer put it, 'intent means fuck-all in the eyes of the court.'

And yet.....

http://www.youthpolicy.nl/yp/Youth-Poli ... se-figures

http://cmx.sagepub.com/content/15/1/5.abstract

I hate to present it to you but:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21041234

[Peas n carrots]

Can someone explain to me the mental gymnastics it takes to say it is OK to hit a small child who can't defend themselves, and not OK to hit a full grown adult?

[docmom]

Can someone explain to me the mental gymnastics it takes to say it is OK to hit a small child who can't defend themselves, and not OK to hit a full grown adult?

I think some fundies would think it was fine to hit a full grown adult- as long as she's female.

[Koala]

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/04/women-wearing-pants.html

From a post Lori wrote in 2013:

When we stop being afraid of what men can do to us, or angry about what they have done, and start serving the God whose image they are made in, then men will start filling our church pews again.

And our husbands will rise up to their full potential to be spiritual leaders, to be prophets and priests of integrity and Pentecost, to be speakers into lives and providers of families and protectors of daughters and mentors of sons.

{The Lost Art Of Servanthood}

Emily Wierenga wrote those words. She is getting beat up in the comments section about teaching that wives are commanded to submit to their husbands. She tells of a friend of hers in Lebanon whose husband broke out some of her teeth when she became a Christian. She stayed with him and he became a Christian.

Oh, this angers many women. "How can you support abuse?" Her husband will be in heaven praising Jesus for eternity because she fought silently for her husband's salvation. Women are willing to fight for many things but for some reason to fight for your marriage and your husband is not worth it? {Of course, she doesn't condone physical violence against women and neither do I but uses this example as the power of submission.}

She tells how her mum wore the pants in her family so she grew up not respecting her father. Are men partly responsible for women wearing the pants? I am not sure but it is worth considering. Maybe if men would stand up to their wives and say "No" and stop being afraid of their wives, they would have more authority in the home.

However, what responsibility do women have in the feminization of men? Men fearing to be leaders in their homes? Men abandoning the Church? Men no longer wanting to support and protect their families?

I believe women hold a great amount of responsibility in this area. In the quest to be equal with men, women have systematically destroyed masculinity and in the process destroyed femininity. God has made it very clear that men are to be the leaders in the home and wives are to obey them in everything. This creates peace and order, something that God highly prizes.

True happiness and joy is found in serving others. When you learn to truly love and serve your husband, your home is put in order, God's order. I admire Emily for taking such a bold, strong stand on submission and putting it out there for all to read. Of course she will be ridiculed. The world doesn't like God's message and ways. They love to pervert His ways and make them look ugly.

Show the world how beautiful biblical submission is in your own marriage. My son recently told me that one of his friends decided to take on my 30 Day Challenge of not arguing. They made it four days without arguing. They are going to start over. Never give up! Practice makes perfect. Learning to not argue with your husband is the first step to taking off those pants once and for all and allowing your husband to wear them!

Emily's story ends this way ~

For all of my dad’s sermons the greatest message he ever gave {and continues to give} was with his life, bent over the bathtub, washing my mum as she lay semi-unconscious; cutting her toenails, changing her Depend’s and cooking baked potatoes in the microwave night after night for supper, for years.

And suddenly Mum began to laugh at his jokes and lean on his arm and tell him he was handsome. And suddenly my dad’s shoulders straightened and his home became his ministry. And his children rose up and championed him, and called their mother blessed.

From the comments:

Lori Alexander:

Most husbands want their wives imput but when there is an impasse, he gets to decide. He also should have the last word.

A very interesting exchange takes place in the comments. Parts of it have been mentioned in this thread before:

PJB:

You can count me among the women who are angry that you would sensationalize enduring abuse as a powerful example of anything good. (But you probably knew that.)

I believe in feminine servant-hood -- and I hate to see domineering women destroy families by disrespectful conduct. But I also believe that all leaders must be servants, which means that I also believe in male servant-hood, and that any servant-hearted person can be a leader in a family.

I understand that you cling to words like "leader" for men "obey" for women, but you get "leader" from the Greek metaphor of headship, which is by no means as clear-cut as you imagine... and you get "obey" from the King James translation of "hupotasso" which is an innocent word that only means that we elevate others by our humility (servanthood) and willingly take shelter under them. It's important to cling to the Bible -- It's also important to occasionally wonder if our personal conclusions about 'what it clearly means' are actually well founded.

I might go on saying these things to you, because I think you read them, even though Ken usually responds. Sometimes I have hope that I might find a teachable moment with you -- possibly due to the title of your blog... but posts like this, Lori, they are not worthy of you. It does not good for the Church to be on the internet as "pro-abuse" -- there are already enough people in Churches past and present who prove that point. Let's not join their ranks?

Lori Alexander:

I made it very clear that I am not "pro-abuse" and frankly, you write a bit too intellectually for me. This is why I usually have Ken respond. My posts and thoughts are fairly simple. I am not a highly academic person. I would like to think I am a wise woman and that is all that matters to me. All your interpretations of words confuse me. I do read your responses but I don't always understand the point you are trying to make. I know we agree on some things and disagree on others and that is fine with me. You always write thoughtful disagreements and that is why I publish your comments.

PJB

Telling a story when abuse occurs, and enduring it (rather than protecting one's self from it) is characterized as a noble "powerful" choice that leads to good results *IS* pro-abuse. It's not in favor of the 'abuser' but it makes a hero out of an abused person who does absolutely the wrong thing -- intentionally enables the abuse to continue. That's what makes it pro-abuse.

If you are truly against abuse, you would condemn it in all forms, every time it comes up -- rather than waxing sentimental about his sometimes it can be a good thing if a woman puts up with it for long enough

Ken Alexander:

{Of course, she doesn't condone physical violence against women and neither do I but uses this example as the power of submission.}

You know PJB, the reason you hear from me is because of your constant picking at Lori’s work and consistent mischaracterizations of what the Scriptures teach in the Greek. You seem to have an agenda to teach Lori something that is contrary to what the scriptures teach, and Lori knows it, but prefers not to take her talented time up with defending what she writes. You are welcome to read her work, and welcome to post comments, but what do you want Lori to say to you when you purposefully mischaracterize what she has clearly written?

Lori clearly states that she is against physical abuse of any type, yet you want all her readers to believe that she condones it. All because she explains why another writer is getting beat up for a story about how a wife suffered so she might win her husband to the Lord?

Get real for a moment and give Lori’s readers the benefit of not being stupid, ignorant or slavishly submissive. Her readers are like you, highly intelligent, educated and can decipher between an illustration and an admonition. Lori is not admonishing her reader to accept abuse, and you know it. If you want to object to her repeating the illustration, so be it, but resist the temptation to mischaracterize what Lori has clearly written because you do not appreciate the illustration.

Lori teaches that if a husband does any physical abuse, run, don’t walk to the police, or at least get to a friend’s home. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the women in the illustration got back with her husband after she turned him in? Or after she ran away for a period of time and then forgave and restored him?

We have been round and round on your inaccurate use of the Greek word "hupotasso" and as much as you want to try and wiggle out of it, it is a military term and you know full well the military speaks in terms of leadership and submission, and definitely not “an innocent word that only means that we elevate others by our humility.â€

No matter how many times you repeat the same mischaracterization of the word, it will not change its true origin and meaning. "Hupotasso" clearly means submission or 99% of all Bible translators got it wrong and you and modern feminist Christianity somehow have discovered the its new meaning without ever finding it defined your way in any ancient manuscripts. For that matter, “elevate others by our humility†makes zero sense in the context of a military term.

To define a word in the Scriptures according to what you want it to mean in the context of a modern christian marriage is a gross violation of any reasonable hermeneutics, yet you repeat it over and over again with some authority that others may perceive is valid, when it is not. Like it or not, God could have chosen a different word other than “hupotasso,†but he did not. So it may be time to give up and accept submission as an admonition from the Lord, and discover that it is the key that can lead to a glorious, Christ centered marriage of loving equals each playing out their God given roles.

If you want Lori to learn from you, use the Bible to defend your position, and use the Greek words with their clear translation. Do not set up a straw man of recently coined definitions and masquerade them as the truth, then ask Lori and others to accept them. This makes no sense to Lori because she knows her Bible intimately and has never seen what you speak of so matter-of-factly. We cannot accept that all of Christianity throughout history somehow got it wrong, but now you and others who espouse a kinder, gentler “hupotasso†just figured it out in the middle of a feminist world. There needs no watering down of “hupotasso†because the husband’s responsibility to “love his wife as Christ loves the church†is an even great demand. The two extremes balance each other out perfectly in God’s marriage.

[littlemommy]

I vaguely remember Ken referring in his earlier days here to Lori being some kind of prophet. Did anything ever come of that, or am I getting my fundies crossed?

[Koala]

No, Ken has asserted that Lori has a prophetic gift:

Ken Alexander:

She certainly is not trying to offend, but she has a prophetic gift... and I get to be married to this wonderful woman!

Someone asked him to elaborate, but he chose not to.

[docmom]

Koala's post made we go look up hupotasso to see if Ken's interpretation was the only one out there. Not surprisingly, many of the web sites that came up were submission websites (including Christian Domestic Discipline who wrap themselves into knots proving that Paul meant men should beat their wives); however, I did come across a scholarly site. As it turns out, hupotasso does have a military meaning, but it also was used in non-military situations and its meaning was different (in the same way that in English you can submit a report or submit to screening at the airport). Anyway the conclusion of this author was:

Hupotasso, as it relates to members of the church interacting with each other is "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden." When Paul instructs the Ephesians to "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ" it is clear that he is speaking the sense of "arranging under" or "yield to admonition or advice" He isn’t telling people to obey each other. In 1Cor 16:16 when Paul calls on the Corinthians to submit to "everyone who cooperates in the work" it is clear there is no sense of hierarchy

[Coconut Flan]

Looking up some of the points above, I found an entertaining explanation. Being it was a patriarchal society at the time of Paul, of course women were subject to/under the authority of men because it would have been shocking for it not to be so. However, Paul said women are under the authority or however you want to translate it of their husbands. That is their husband is the only man that was to be their head. In other words not to follow other men or be prostitutes. :mouse-shock:

[polecat]

No, Ken has asserted that Lori has a prophetic gift:

Ken Alexander:

Someone asked him to elaborate, but he chose not to.

I John 4:1 "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

For some reason, I'm completely creeped out that they call her a prophet ...

[freethemall]

Oh my goodness, how did I not know all this stuff with Ken being on FJ was happening??? I guess I got too involved in having a life outside FJ to miss something like this! I'm just really jealous that in so quick a time he's gathered all those posts and gone up in titles, meanwhile I've spent a few months posting here (+ years lurking) and don't even have 300, am still just a tiny little sin in the camp! I gotta step it up! Thank you for the motivation to keep snarking Ken!

[RosyDaisy]

I think some fundies would think it was fine to hit a full grown adult- as long as she's female.

Fundies don't think.

[Koala]

Lori Alexander:

Ask my children how controlling I was...They had to sneak junk food, so I wouldn't get mad at them. I think they were actually afraid of me, which I don't necessarily think is bad.

[latraviata]

Lori Alexander:

Oh dear...sigh.... :roll:

[feministxtian]

Lori Alexander:

I think psychotic bitch is an understatement when referring to Lori Alexander is a Fucking Monster (and Ken Alexander is a Fucking idiot).

[Ken]

I vaguely remember Ken referring in his earlier days here to Lori being some kind of prophet. Did anything ever come of that, or am I getting my fundies crossed?

No big issue here. Christians each have various gifts which are given by the Holy Spirit. May of them tend to mirror our personalities with Relater types having the gift of helps, Socializers the gift of hospitality and Analyzers the gift of administration, etc. Most of us have more than one gift as listed in Corinthians, and many Christians have no clue what their gift is but they still may be using it in their lives. It is how the Spirit works in our lives to help others and build up the church.

The gift of prophecy is one that has two parts, foretelling, like the OT prophets predicting of Christ Jesus and other telling of the future as God directs them. The second part is forthtelling and this is usually exposing what God's Word already says to the livesand the culture around them. Those in the church with prophetic gifting tend to see God's Word clearly, have a string bent towards demanding righteous living and measuring up to God's Word, even the parts that are somewhat hard for some of us to understand or accept, and they have no fear in proclaiming what they see God's Word is teaching, much like the OT prophets who were persecuted for their ministry. So Lori will not be easily dissuaded from speaking the truth of God's Word, even in the midst of profanity, spew and other stuff she gets from a few of you. in comments she quickly deletes. By the way, we do not believe the foretelling part of prophecy exist much in today's world.

I hope this helps explain things... I simply do not have the time to answer all questions. I try to focus on the important ones and the ones which most mischaracerizes us. Even many of those now I will be ignoring because there is a record of what we actually believe in and desire to teach, even if we have done it so far imperfectly, according to some here.

[Ken]

"and formergothaddite as probably good, yet misguided people"

Can I get informed why I am misguided?

Ken, it took years to even begin to get over the crap that was shoved on me by Bill Gothard and the fundamental Christian belief that women should be submissive. Years. I don't think I will ever really be able to really get over all of it. But Free Jinger has been a very healing place for me. Seeing the beliefs that have messed my life up so much mocked and made fun of and picked apart piece by piece has been so healing.

To a formergothardite,

I have been thinking about your comments and want to again express how sad I feel for what you went through because of certain church and unchristian teaching in your life. We know that the “wheat and tares†must coexist until the end of time, and that Satan wants nothing more than to plant within the true church something that mimics the church, but produces bad fruit and evil. It sounds like you were caught up in something that did not display anything close to what looks like Jesus, or a Biblical model for marriage.

If our exchange has been somewhat cathartic for you, and if taking out your frustrations on me is helpful in your regaining anything of what you feel you lost in those difficult years, then I will consider my time here somewhat productive. I have never been a part of a bad church, nor a part of bad teaching, so I do not know what that must be like. I know there are cults out there and churches that serve as the ministers play thing. I know there are some who teach one sided truth intended for evil. But we are not of this group. I also must heartily protest your desire to wipe out large sections of Biblical teaching on wifely submission and husband leadership just because of its potential for abuse.

It is actually pretty easy to tell if someone is a true Believer or a fake by their love, and the fruit of their life. If the marriage model your old church taught did not place an emphasis on the couple FIRST acting like Christians towards each other with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, then something is terribly wrong either with the individual husband, or with the church theology. If a church is teaching a true Biblical marriage model it will place a greater obligation for the husband to love his wife than on a wife to be submissive. Both are necessary to live out the Biblical model, and any church is outwardly or secretly teaching any form of husband domination, or unloving leadership, is plainly a bad church or cult. Run from it as fast as you can.

What I would hope is that you can at some point differentiate between your bad church and bad experiences from the millions of us who are living out true Biblical marriages of a loving husband and submissive wife. Neither being perfect in their behavior or love towards one another, but both working hard towards the ideals that God has designed for a Biblical marriage.

I may be doing a post about this soon... for the rest of your response. I think you will like it, even if it does not capture everything you would like in it.

[Ken]

Ken, you do realize that those are all quotes that Lori posted on her blog, right?

The number of times you contradict Lori makes me wonder if you actually have any clue what she is saying about you/your family on her blog or how it makes you look.

(hint: not good)

If you think those quotes are mean and nasty, the person you need to take it up with is Lori because she is the one that posted them on the internet with her full name while talking about YOUR parenting and YOUR family.

Edit to add: I snipped the list of ailments because it doesn't give someone a pass to post whatever they want on the internet without criticism. Many people here could put up a similar list.

The list of ailments was a direct contradiction to what Koala was posting, not anything to garner sympathy for what my wife posts. One cannot imply that the "pain" Lori is referring to comes from another source without allowing me to post what the actual source of pain is coming from.

[SunnyAndrsn]

No big issue here. Christians each have various gifts which are given by the Holy Spirit. May of them tend to mirror our personalities with Relater types having the gift of helps, Socializers the gift of hospitality and Analyzers the gift of administration, etc. Most of us have more than one gift as listed in Corinthians, and many Christians have no clue what their gift is but they still may be using it in their lives. It is how the Spirit works in our lives to help others and build up the church.

The gift of prophecy is one that has two parts, foretelling, like the OT prophets predicting of Christ Jesus and other telling of the future as God directs them. The second part is forthtelling and this is usually exposing what God's Word already says to the livesand the culture around them. Those in the church with prophetic gifting tend to see God's Word clearly, have a string bent towards demanding righteous living and measuring up to God's Word, even the parts that are somewhat hard for some of us to understand or accept, and they have no fear in proclaiming what they see God's Word is teaching, much like the OT prophets who were persecuted for their ministry. So Lori will not be easily dissuaded from speaking the truth of God's Word, even in the midst of profanity, spew and other stuff she gets from a few of you. in comments she quickly deletes. By the way, we do not believe the foretelling part of prophecy exist much in today's world.

I hope this helps explain things... I simply do not have the time to answer all questions. I try to focus on the important ones and the ones which most mischaracerizes us. Even many of those now I will be ignoring because there is a record of what we actually believe in and desire to teach, even if we have done it so far imperfectly, according to some here.

If you actually believe this, you're both false prophets--the very thing the bible warns against because it turns people away from God, instead of bringing them closer to God.

[FloraKitty35]

Lori Alexander:

And that's something to be proud of?