Lori - V-Day Causes Divorce - Now With Moar Ken! Part 2

[Full enough quiver]

I asked my husband to name three things I could do for him. He says 1. Quit coloring and cutting my hair. He likes it long, and it's natural strawberry blonde. Easy enough. Done. 2. Give him a foot massage when he gets home from work. Did it then and there. Will do it every day, since it makes him happy and takes only a few minutes. 3. Stop rushing him when it comes to decision making. I will work on having more patience with his slower process. What he can do for me- 1. Compliment me more frequently. He told me he's a lucky man, and will try harder to remember that. 2. Keep my gas tank filled. He has a work truck, but my minivan is the family car. For some reason, I don't ever remember I need gas until I get home.(totally stupid, I know) He has promised to make that his job from now on. 3. Stop leaving important decisions to the last minute, give me status updates when something needs doing, but Im seeing no visible progress. He promises to work on this. That was interesting, I'm looking forward to doing these things for him. I enjoy pleasing him, not because the bible says i should, but because I love him, and I'm grateful for all his hard work for our family. We'll see if he keeps up his end of the deal, again, not because the bible tells him to, but because he loves me, and appreciates all that I do for our family.

[Ken]

Ken - thanks for the clarification, but my point still stands.

In an egalitarian relationship, neither spouse is "in authority" over the other. I am a wife, not a child (and find the analogy a bit creepy).

That doesn't mean that spouse can't have sacrificial love for each other. To the contrary, it means that they treat each other with love and respect. They consider their words and actions, and asked themselves, "when I do/say this, am I showing love and respect to my spouse?"

Weighing every action is not productive, you are right about that. Often, though, these concerns aren't REALLY about putting in perfectly equal contributions. If one spouse would suddenly fall ill or have an accident, often the other spouse wouldn't think twice about doing everything that they could. What those complaints usually mean is this: "I don't feel that my work is recognized and appreciated. I'm working hard and feeling really tired, and when you just sit on the couch, I feel that you are blind to the fact that I'm doing so much and that you don't care about me enough to want to help me. The idea that you might not care about my needs is really scary to me, because it tells me that I can't rely on you, and it makes me wonder if you really love me."

Now, both you and Lori have repeatedly brought up the "too tired for sex" thing, so I'll try to explain it simply as I can to you.

If you have a baby constantly nursing or crying, and small children constantly demanding your attention NOW, and you aren't sleeping at night, and you are wearing sweats day and night, and if a baby is spitting up on you, and if you haven't had a chance to take a shower or even sit down to a decent meal, and if you are feeling really "touched out" by the kids, your body will shut down your sex drive. You will have no energy, you will fall asleep the moment you lie down, and you will be drier than the Sahara (esp. if you are nursing, which can actually cause "vaginal atrophy").

If a wife in this situation isn't up for sex, she's not "withholding" it or trying to punish or manipulate her husband. Her body's simply not up to it. It's sort of like a middle-aged guy who gets erectile dysfunction - he's not doing it on purpose, but things just aren't happening. Getting some sleep, a hot bath or shower, time for some exercise and a decent meal will go a long way toward getting her to the point that she is able to respond. Think of it as Viagra for women. That may take some effort from the husband. If she tries to have sex while dry and exhausted, it's not going to be good. If she's got vaginal atrophy, it can actually be really painful. Taking the time and effort to have good sex = showing love and respect. Expecting a wife to submit to bad, painful sex while refusing to help her does not show love and respect.

Then IF you are a Believer you must take up the issue if a husband's authority up with the Bible and God, not us. If you are not a Christian, or are a Christian, we do not care what you believe about submission, but we do care that you group is bullying us over our teaching what the Bible clearly teaches. If FJ has not noticed, the blog is a Christian blog teaching Biblical principles, ad I have yet to have anyone give me even a modest set of theological arguments that would dissuade me from what I know the Bible teaches in the Greek: "hupotasso" To submit, to be subject to, to be subordinate as of a military hierarchy.

As for sex with new borns, I have had four of them so I know the facts of life. I have lived it. And I can tell you that at times we went without sex, and at times we joyfully overcame all of the issues you have listed. It is a cop out to say that sex is not possible because one has a baby, but that goes to the bad thinking perpetuated by many. Again, abstaining fir a time is perfectly acceptable too.

Remember, I have been married to a severely ill wife fir 25 years and have rarely had to ever ask her for sex. She was aware of my sexual drive and did not use her illness of an excuse to avoid it, even as she certainly could have,and I would have honored her choice. So your story is on the surface convincing, but it dies not hold any much merit if a wife is truly desiring to please her man and meet his needs. You know full well there are ways to have sex that can sidestep all of those issues if a wife is willing to give her man 10 minutes or more.

I cannot wait for Koala to jump in and scold me for answering your question frankly, because it involves talk of my sex life. Let's see how creative she can be in putting a negative twist on this one.

[Curious]

I have zero issue with FJ discussing what Lori posts, but huge issues with the bullying, and exposing of personal information onto the world wide web. Your group doing exactly what you accuse Lori of doing, but now it is acceptable because you are not "teachers?"

Ok, I'll bite. Exactly what personal information (ie: not already available to the public on the internet) and where on the forum is it (provide a link) are we publishing about either you or Lori? If something has managed to slip through the cracks and it's truly private information, it will be taken care of.

[Ken]

This is patently untrue. Lori has remarked numerous times that she is aware that there are websites that discuss her blog, even going as far as to make a post about it. Let me refresh your memory:

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/09/ravenous-wolves.html

Lori Alexander:

Let's be very clear. I didn't discover this information while digging through your garbage or reading your wife's journal. It is posted on the world wide web on her very public blog...the one you acknowledge has a rather large audience. To insinuate that we have "spilled the beans" on Lori's personal life is ludicrous, and this info is far from buried. It is content that Lori has freely published for public consumption.

Did I expose it to the world, or did Lori? Certainly I wouldn't have been privy to this information had Lori not posted it for the world to read. Or did you think that Lori's blog was somehow exclusive to readers who agree with her disabling her birth control device in order to get her way?

Talking about her posts is one thing. Her comments where she is not teaching a whole other level of scooping up some mud to throw.

So your argument is what? So long as it is on the Web you have no responsibility to leave it alone and ignore it? That someone you are FJ's self appointed mud finder. Your moral compass is so messed up Koala that you can't see straight anymore. I understand as I have seen good people, which you probably are, throw out their values and ideals because they are so bent on winning the fight. It happens to the best, but try describing some day to your grandchildren how grandma spends her time protecting the abused and the spanked by slinging mud wherever she can find it. It is below your and your values, and my guess is your embarrassment would never end if your friends and work ever found out how you spend your leisure time picking, attacking, and exposing important things like a pin prick in a diaphragm.

So your excuse is that you found it in the park... pics of of nude movie star, and because she let the pics be taken it is your responsibility and honor to turn them in to TMZ, the FJ Forum. Wonderful ethics.

Why not do what some of the more honorable people on FJ do and write about the important concepts and ideas you are opposed to instead of taking this into your own place for personal attacks. How about you, have you ever read one commentary on Ephesians Chapter 5?

[Ken]

Lori is very qualified to teach the group she is teaching Christian women who want t be great wives and mothers. Have you missed the hundreds of comments from women thanking her for her ministry, and having great success in their marriages doing not what Lord says, but what the Bible says.

Who was it who asked me about name calling as if it did not exist in the group? It is very ugly of you.

[salex]

Talking about her posts is one thing. Her comments where she is not teaching a whole other level of scooping up some mud to throw.

Why? if it is mud at all, it is mud she made.... why are her posts one thing and her comments somehow more holy? They are all part of the blog.

So your argument is what? So long as it is on the Web you have no responsibility to leave it alone and ignore it? That someone you are FJ's self appointed mud finder. Your moral compass is so messed up Koala that you can't see straight anymore. I understand as I have seen good people, which you probably are, throw out their values and ideals because they are so bent on winning the fight. It happens to the best, but try describing some day to your grandchildren how grandma spends her time protecting the abused and the spanked by slinging mud wherever she can find it. It is below your and your values, and my guess is your embarrassment would never end if your friends and work ever found out how you spend your leisure time picking, attacking, and exposing important things like a pin prick in a diaphragm.

Actually, I have been keeping my husband appraised of the highlights of this thread (the sabotaging the diaphragm was indeed a high point) and it has given us some great laughs. Had I brought it up at my girls night out this evening... it would have been discussed briefly. My coworkers may or may not hear about it at the next potluck at work. I am not embarrassed to say that some guy came into a board I read to defend his wife's blog by calling feminism the destroyer of the USA/western culture or whatever you said, or that this woman keeps telling miserable women to pretend to respect their husbands and do waht they want to make their marriages bearable....the digaphram story is in and of it self a conversation starter.... lots of people, male and female would have an opinion on that one.

The thing is, Lori has put herself out as a blogger on the web. And you have popped in to convince us the things she writes don't really mean what she says they mean. Fine. Keep thinking that.

So your excuse is that you found it in the park... pics of of nude movie star, and because she let the pics be taken it is your responsibility and honor to turn them in to TMZ, the FJ Forum. Wonderful ethics.

Actually, we didn't find pictures of a nude actress in a park. We see Lori's beliefs and writings posted on a web site she actively promotes. It is more like seeing said actresses nude photos on a billboard, with the actresses permission. I had to google TMZ, but no, we aren't posting some secret sex tape we found in the park, we are shining a light, pointing, laughing and critiquing the nude billboard that Lori has posted of herself.

IF the empress has no clothing, our pointing it out is not out of line. It is not our duty to admire imagined pretty dress as she strides around thinking she's clad in silk.

edited for word choice

[Ken]

Disagreement does not equal cyber-bullying. Neither does name calling (in the majority of cases), though I personally try not to engage in it because I don't think it does much good. That's not to say it's never happened, ever anywhere on the net. I try not to do it here, particularly since I have been owner.

We don't allow the posting of PRIVATE information on Free Jinger. It's in both the rules and the ToU and we do police it. In fact, our members help self-police it pretty strictly themselves. Any information that is posted here must come from public blogs, facebook pages, twitter pages, etc. If the blog/fb/twitter is private/password protected/etc and the member is their friend or has access, they are NOT allowed to post things from those venues here. That information can be paraphrased, but personal information such as addresses can't even be paraphrased (because how would you do that?).

You don't have to tell me about crazy people on the internet, Ken. Late last year, a small group of people that were upset with me/FJ decided to out me and put my own personal information (which was actually private, they got it from former "friends") all over the internet. They posted things that were quite ugly and lies and were things we would never allow to be posted here on FJ under any circumstances.

I also want to point out that we go by pseudonyms here, yes, but there is no law stating that you MUST blog under your real name. Now, I do have a (mostly ignored) blog under my real name and it was outed during that period last year, but I wasn't overly worried about it (other than my general annoyance that I made some really shitty choices in friends a few years ago) because while it does contain personal information about me, it is not a play-by-play of my entire life. People had great fun making fun of my "rat dogs," but there was nothing else on my blog that was a problem for me because I don't play out my life on the internet. My facebook page is *private,* so there was nothing for anyone to see there. Had it been public, people would have seen more dog pictures, because again I don't play my life out online. At least not under my real name ;)

Curious, my issue is not with you, but with those who somehow believe that if information is already public, hidden in some small comment in one of 1200 posts, that it should be showed to the whole world. That facebook pages should be made available to all to see because one somehow found them.

You were outed, and how did that feel. How threatening is it for you as Owner of this inflammatory Forum to know that some crazy can get on here on either side of the issues and then violate all your stated rules and go after you or me, or others. Is this not what everyone is fighting against with my wife;s blog? Fear that somehow someone will misunderstand or stretch the message and go wacko and abuse.

There is no excusing some of the behavior of your friends here, nor of your continuing to perpetuate profanity associated with my wife on a Google search. It is inexcusable and wrong. Two wrings do not make a right, but if someone decides to sue the pants off of you as Owner of this mess, I can't say that I would blame them based on the defamation of character I and my wife have suffered with the mischaracterizations and false accusations.

I am not Satan in disguise, I do not beat my wife to make her write what she writes and my wife is no monster. Defamation... just packaged in a way that will probably allow your Forum and your friends to get away with the unethical and immoral treatment. I can handle all other other stiff thrown at me, but are allow tolerance for the false defamation and nastiness which this Forum seems to thrive upon.

I do appreciate your allowing me to participate as I have come realize that not all are of the same low character as others and are truly here for discussion purposes, not just to silence all who they disagree with.

[Ken]

I asked my husband to name three things I could do for him. He says 1. Quit coloring and cutting my hair. He likes it long, and it's natural strawberry blonde. Easy enough. Done. 2. Give him a foot massage when he gets home from work. Did it then and there. Will do it every day, since it makes him happy and takes only a few minutes. 3. Stop rushing him when it comes to decision making. I will work on having more patience with his slower process. What he can do for me- 1. Compliment me more frequently. He told me he's a lucky man, and will try harder to remember that. 2. Keep my gas tank filled. He has a work truck, but my minivan is the family car. For some reason, I don't ever remember I need gas until I get home.(totally stupid, I know) He has promised to make that his job from now on. 3. Stop leaving important decisions to the last minute, give me status updates when something needs doing, but Im seeing no visible progress. He promises to work on this. That was interesting, I'm looking forward to doing these things for him. I enjoy pleasing him, not because the bible says i should, but because I love him, and I'm grateful for all his hard work for our family. We'll see if he keeps up his end of the deal, again, not because the bible tells him to, but because he loves me, and appreciates all that I do for our family.

Perfect! You have immediately moved to another level of communications and pleasing each other. Now be sure that each of you does what you promised for 30-45 days WITHOUT expecting the other to keep their commitments. It is precisely when one keeps their commitments even when the other does not that it propels the marriage forward.

Here is what you may find if you keep this process going. Soon you may start to find more important long standing issues and desires that have remained unspoken. Trust and vulnerability begins with the easy stuff as a test, to see if one can really share their deepest senses and needs. Deep connections happen when one knows the other spouse completely... all they are thinking and desiring. Even if they cannot meet all of their perceived needs, this is what I believe is "to know" a spouse completely. Not just in a sexual way, but in a way of complete acceptance where both can share not just desires, but weaknesses and sins.

True intimacy happens when each spouse knows that the other spouse knows them, loves them, and accepts them completely for who they are, in all their warts and weaknesses and sins. Are you ready to hear that he may have come close to "kissing her" at a party, or that he struggles with porn issues, or that he worries deeply about money?

The two shall become One Flesh is so much deeoer and more rewarding than any egalitarian partnership. Tell me you do not long for your spouse to know you,all of you, inside and out, and love you for exactly who you are... nothing hidden... all exposed... naked but no longer alone because not only dies Gd knows you, but your true knows and loves you too.

Tenderness, joy, happiness, and abiding love is what God intends for a Biblical marriage. Not power dominance, hidden stories, and selfishness.

[salex]

The risk of abuse is part of it, but frankly, anything that advocates for women being second class citizens because God says they are is dangerous to all women. You say I should argue with GOd and I'll happily do it, but since you and Lori have appointed yourselves God's little spokespeople, you will do. By spouting all this basically "limit women's rights/education/working/voting" stuff Lori has posted, her blog is actively trying to limit women's role in our culture, not just the unhappy marriages she says she is helping. Uneducated, dependent women by definition have fewer options-- how is that good for anyone. YOu keep saying submission is a choice women make... but if women have no options in life because they can't get jobs, are not educated, are not seen as citizen enough to vote, etc... submission won't be a gift to husbands or a choice a woman makes. It will be a mandate for survival. Is that what you want for women and for society? I believe you think it would be a better world if that were the case. And that is why I'm happy when people shine a light on you and lori's blog.

[salex]

Pe

True intimacy happens when each spouse knows that the other spouse knows them, loves them, and accepts them completely for who they are, in all their warts and weaknesses and sins. Are you ready to hear that he may have come close to "kissing her" at a party, or that he struggles with porn issues, or that he worries deeply about money?

The two shall become One Flesh is so much deeoer and more rewarding than any egalitarian partnership.

you seem to think that egalitarian marriages don't already include this. no matter how often you are told you are incorrect on this, you keep making this mistake.

Tell me you do not long for your spouse to know you,all of you, inside and out, and love you for exactly who you are... nothing hidden... all exposed... naked but no longer alone because not only dies Gd knows you, but your true knows and loves you too.

Tenderness, joy, happiness, and abiding love is what God intends for a Biblical marriage. Not power dominance, hidden stories, and selfishness.

[Nettie]

Curious, my issue is not with you, but with those who somehow believe that if information is already public, hidden in some small comment in one of 1200 posts, that it should be showed to the whole world.

I don't get that. It's a comment she made, on her own blog. It's not hidden. What reason is there for not pointing it out? If the information is already public, made public by herself, I am struggling to think of a reason that it shouldn't be pointed out.

And by blogging, Lori is effectively showing it to the whole world - that's the point of the internet.

I don't blog because I am wary of the public information I put out on line. I personally don't like people rummaging around on Facebokk etc but I can see no problem with discussing the information that Lori CHOOSES to put out there, and that includes comments she makes on her own blog.

[RosyDaisy]

I will go postal on anyone who eats all of my thin mints and drinks all of my orange juice....LOL!!

[RosyDaisy]

All I can say is that if a man "disciplines" me, he better hope the sheriff's deputies haul him off to jail before my family dispenses some redneck justice. I'm not even joking. I will not bail him out or go back to him, and I will file a restraining order. I did not grow up in that kind of environment, and refuse to live in it. Any man who feels that he has to "discipline" his wife is not following Scripture. He's just being abusive and controlling.

Side note, being pinned to a wall can lead to sweet fellowshipping, provided it's apparent why it's being done, isn't abusive, and consensual. Sorry for the TMI.

[Rebelwife]

What are "the lies of feminism?" Anyone have any ideas... is there a list somewhere?

You haven't been coming to the meetings, have you? :naughty: It was right on the agenda after making everyone have a gay marriage.

[formergothardite]

I cannot disagree with you and this Forum more when you want to take a blog set with a specific purpose and turn it into something t is not. It is not a blog to train husbands and not a blog to deal with wife abuse. If you want to deal with that information go for it and start your own blog.

Lori has a specific focus on training women how to be great CHRISTIAN wives and mothers. She cannot be your end all and be all for your campaign against wife abuse.

If you as asking for her to consider allowing you to post a caution to her readers concerning what blind submission can do to perpetuate abuse when married to an evil man, or a chemically or mentally impaired husband, why don't you just ask? Maybe I can get Lori to post such a thoughtful illustration to raise awareness that abuse exists and what women should look for in signs that a man is truly controlling and dominating, not just difficult.

Would that be enough to get you and FJ off her back? It has nothing to do with her stated purpose, but everything to do with your purpose, but who knows, maybe a post on the subject is warranted to help alleviate your fears of the .000001 chance that her blog will be any part of continuing the abuse.

I get what you all are crusading for, and I am on your side with that, but I am not in support of your tactics where the end justifies the means, and bully a blog writer so she posts what you want her to post .... all in the name of conquering bullying and abuse.

Lori's frame of reference is the Bible. The Bible clearly teaches submission, and yes, it can be abused, but not the way Lori and I are teaching it. Both of us have made clear that physical abuse is not to be tolerated, so all you are left with is an appeal to emotional abuse. Here is a tricky area, as salex keeps pointing out by taking many examples in CM's story to press for emotional abuse when no emotional abuse exists. It is common for a wife in a difficult marriage to label many things, including a husband's silence, or not coming home for dinner as "emotional abuse."

Many who comment to me are in hysterics over the most minor of things, seeing a evil act behind a hug, or withholding keys, etc. These things can be evil, but only context will determine this and the hearts of the people involved, not salex and her list of do's and dont's.

Certainly some things are clearly abusive, but in any relationship that is struggling in difficult times, even others looking in cannot tell what is the reality many times, like the son, who thought his Dad was being abusive, but later came to learn the true story that the Dad saved mom from alcohol and bitterness.

How do you know hundreds of stories of submission not working? Come out from behind your Moniker and tell me who you are and what is your level of knowledge and experience. Perhaps then you might get a better hearing from me.

I have never seen submission cause or perpetuate abuse. So I am at a loss to help you and this group with your mission. I am not one who is apt to accept a bunch of emotionally charged bully's word for things, when they prove over and over again that they violate common ethics and morality when they campaign for awareness for their cause. And I have ad no time to check things out for myself trying to answer false accusations and mischaracterizations with my free time.

Finally, any cleaning up on Lori's blog is by implied request of your fellow FJers so as to insure that some ore not misled by what we believe and want to represent. Spank harder is no something we believe in, but we do believe that if one is going to spank, their must be a level of modest pain associated with the swat that will communicate and obtain changed behavior from the child.

,

Maybe you missed the story, but did you read the story I posted for you earlier? This gives a good idea of what many of us have seen and why you may have actually seen it and missed it. Can I assume from your lack of an answer that Lori does not actually have a wealth of knowledge and has little to no knowledge of abuse?

I'm not going to give you my real name. That would be foolish. Plus my husband and I have agreed that for the safety of our children we are keeping private. You can understand that, can't you? Sure we have your real name and Lori's real name, but we are pretty much just taking your word on the hundreds of marriages saved, aren't we? Have you provided us with hundreds of real names that could be confirmed? No you have not.

they violate common ethics and morality

This is rich coming from a man who calls a woman who advocates rape a good Christian writer. Don't take my word, go to her blog. It is in a blog post for January. If you want I'll even find the link for you again. Even though you have commented on Lori's blog recently, you have completely ignored the woman who said "can a man even "rape" his wife". Ethical and moral man and woman would reply, "Of course he can, and it is immoral." You need to go work on the log in your own eye.

I have noticed that when pinned down on things Ken that will be uncomfortable for you to answer and will end up with you having to face things that don't confirm what you already believe you tend to deflect the conversation back to us so that you can avoid answers. This is extremely common with the fundamental Christians that come here. At the beginning of this conversation you said that you weren't like these people, that you would be honest. You haven't been, though. You have shown a complete lack of intellectually honesty.

My recommendation, take some time to go read stories of abused women who were in submissive marriages. Take some time to learn more abuse. Lori is supposed to submit to you and is teaching women that she does, so make this a thing you two do together. Really be "Always Learning" Step outside your box of "women are always to blame".

[formergothardite]

I am not running from the higher standard, as long as it is done responsibly. Bullying and exposing private information is NOT a higher standard, but a lower evil standard your group uses to try to obtain perceived accountability.

CONTEXT: can you keep that in mind when you make accusations. I wanted 5-6 children and I got four. We are not talking about conceiving an unwanted child, but about timing. If Lori had thought I did not want the child, she would never have trued to push up the timing. Besides, shouldn't a woman have rights over her own body?

That's for the hypocrites who will cast the stone, yet think nothing of a women getting an abortion against the father's strong objections. When it comes to conceiving a beautiful loved child three months early they are all up in arms and screaming hateful accusations, but when the woman goes in and murders the fetus they cheer her on with her rights to control her own body and make her own choice. You decide which one is truly evil and which one is a mistake with zero harm.

Actually the one conceived through the pinhole, if that really happened, is one of the best blessings a father could ever have. He is one in a million, so maybe he did get through that pin hole and God used my unsubmissive wife to give me the best gift ever! He dos at times have that kind of sense if humor and blessings, at least fir me in my life. So many good things have come out of what others and Satan may have intended for evil. Who knows, maybe FJ will become a blessing instead of a curse in my life some day?

That is great that it worked out for you. But do you understand that for many, many men this level of deceit would have been devastating to their marriage? Lori presented the story as you wouldn't let her SAH so she manipulated the situation using deceit to get her way. If I deceived my husband and manipulated him to get my way it would kill our marriage.

I'm going to ignore your deflection into an abortion debate because I think you would much rather debate abortion than what your wife is teaching on her blog or even what you are saying here.

Now, that you have admitted that you are okay with being held to a higher standard, do you realize that this higher standard means that you MUST take abuse into account and actively do whatever you can to learn about abuse and that you CAN'T assume that all women who come to Lori for advice are to blame for the problems in their marriage? A low standard is just giving blanket advice and assuming that the woman is always to blame. Hold Lori to a higher standard. As an atheist, if I started to give advice about marriage(which I wouldn't since I'm hardly qualified) I would hold myself to a much higher standard than what Lori is holding herself to. She holds the lowest standard possible. She gives biased, blanket advice, that is as low of a standard as you can go.

[OkToBeTakei]

Ken seems to be getting a wee bit dramatic. He sounds like those 'emotional women' he so casually although always patronisingly manages to mention :lol:

Hmm. Been trying to figure this out. I still maintain as I did many pages ago that Ken and Lori are extremely naive about the way the internet works. Throwing a tantrum and throwing around the big words like bullying and slander does not change the fact that whilst indeed you may not like it and there are indeed some people in the world who are not nice, unfortunately no matter how many bible passages you throw at it, Lori writes a public blog. Some people like it some people don't. It is really just that simple. You happened to find a tiny part of this big huge world who liked it and an equally tiny part (in the big scheme of the world and the web) who don't.

I am sure it would just be all peachy if everybody had the same opinion of Lori and Ken as well Lori and Ken do. Again some do, some don't.

I am not into the name-calling malarkey monster thing. Ken, Lori is not averse to some name calling.

Lori called Amy Glass a liar. No more than people like being called a monster I am sure they do not like to be called liars. What was written was her opinion, Lori though just because she disagreed lowered herself by resorting to name-calling. It happens. I am sure those who read her blog here can probably come up with a few examples of Lori being rather shall we say less than complimentary about others. It happens.

I still do not understand your purpose in coming here. As time goes on it seems less and less what you originally said. I think you may have even lost sight of it yourself. Your last few posts are nothing short of what we call where I live, whinging. You continue to ignore the questions that would really shed light on some of your beliefs, you try very hard to discredit those who continue to disagree with you by dismissing them as feminists, not true believers, or some other convenient Ken label for ...can't answer, so I will use a chauvinistic catch all term, or bible passage to hide the fact I'm not answering. Or when a poster takes the time to read back on Lori's very public blog which is lets face it, is not that strange considering it is the whole purpose of this thread. You become all, persecuted.

What I really do not understand and find incredibly hard to believe is that you are trying to tell those who disagree with you here that they/I am some small minority and are subversive in some way. Really? Seriously? You have never met anybody, anybody at all who finds submission in marriage strange. Or hitting small children with sticks (just don't leave a mark) a bit odd? Does everybody you meet in your life think the bible should be taken literally? That all women should stay at home? Of course not Ken. I think you know just as well as we do that this is an area where this can be debated without the ramifications and social constraints having such views and differing opinions can in reality.

My sincere advice to you and Lori is if you do not like the negative feedback Lori's words have caused and are only seeking a niche audience of positive, then make the blog private and invitation only. All the tantrum throwing and cries of persecution because Lori got called a name are going to get you nowhere I'm afraid. It just makes you look silly. This is the reason why I would never have a public Facebook. The reason I would never have a public blog. I could if I wanted use my name here it would mean nothing to anybody I would imagine. I'm fairly open about the opinions I have in life and nobody would be surprised or particularly interested. If I did have a public blog and the subject of it was something controversial I would absolutely expect some negatives and some positives. It would be ludicrous not to.

So I'm back to not understanding your point of being here. Did you want people to stop critiquing or having an opinion? We've established you do not like the name-calling. We have also established that was what 2 or 3 people? You said at one point you wanted to try and understand differing points of view. I think we have established that was not the case. Be honest at least with yourself Ken. You have nothing but disdain despite your attempts at appearing reasonable and thoughtful. Right down to your post addressing Curious as 'you have come across as pretty reasonable' inferring some have not. Ignoring many then trying to appeal to certain posters with manipulative flattery. Artemis comes to mind. I particularly liked your interactions with 2XX right up until you realised that not only was 2XX not the right type of Christian but unfortunately MOST definitely not open to your evangelising. After that you moved on to the next. Koala merely posts Lori's words to emphasise and contradict what you have said. You just can't shake her eh? Instead you accuse her of 'dragging' things up. No. She is posting your wife's words. You say they are taken out of context, yet never say how though. Instead you overdramatise and claim they are being laid out to the WHOLE WORLD. You have been asked point blank if you think it is acceptable for a man to rape his wife yet never answer plainly. You hedge and fudge and quote the bible.

I did tell Mr OK about this thread. Read out a few of your posts. He asked if you were small in stature :lol: (I think he meets a lot of vertically challenged men with similar personalities to yours.) I digress he was joking. He did actually ask if men like you still exist in this day and age. Granted he lives a continent away from you, generally works part of his week in London in a corporate setting although primarily of the construction type of consultancy (not teeth) which you would think would fit more into your male dominant picture. He is 52 so age wise not far off. Sadly no though Ken. He could not relate. I have to tell you in seeking an unbiased opinion I did not tell him you advocate hitting your daughters as that would probably have written you off straight away. Not only could he not relate he opined that he suspected you probably hid a great deal of this in your working life hence in his opinion your reason for trying to appear reasonable and enter into a discourse on this forum. Or more succinctly he said. Damage limitation. Kind of fits now with the tone of your last few posts. We are being maligned, slandered, misrepresented. Uh huh..all becoming clearer, maybe?

What started as ( I am not being disingenuous here at all) Lori's journey into a happy marriage via bible blah blah, seemed a totally harmless and actually positive way for her to pass her time, it brought both you and her an opportunity to feel you were helping others and people liked it. There was an audience, there was like minded folks looking for answers, it feels good to help. It feels good to be looked up to. Unfortunately some of those practices are controversial out with your small circle. That's ok. Lori had the delete button. Except. There is an opinion site. There are actually a few I'm surprised GOMI never picked up on Lori. A site loosely based on primarily a TV show which grew in to a site with thousands of members who discuss all manners of things. Why yes we even discuss homemaking, not just evil name-calling Ken. Thousands of individuals all different demographics, races, religions, sexes, sexualities all with different lives, some single, some married, some with children, some not. You have only ever been determined to conveniently dismiss all these differences under a series of labels. Not once have you attempted to actually listen. If you had, a few pages back you would have noticed as I did even further back, a poster who whilst not agreeing with all of your opinions did actually relate to the submission aspect. Other posters who have questioned out of interest aspects of your religion. Unfortunately almost every single time, you post a wall of self important bum fluff with some Paul thrown in for added gravitas. You have actually missed many opportunities for the intellectual discourse you claimed to have sought through your own self importance sadly. Now your damage limitation is set to high and you are going back down the slander/cyber-bully route. I am sure you think this makes you sound like a reasonable, respected man of the world defending his morally better life against the anonymous heathen masses. Unfortunately it is beginning to sound a bit desperate. No delete button I'm afraid.

Obviously just my hypotheses (well Mr OK's really.) I am sure it will be roundly dismissed. PLEASE though stop with the dramas you big girly :dance:

[OkToBeTakei]

You haven't been coming to the meetings, have you? :naughty: It was right on the agenda after making everyone have a gay marriage.

NO NO NO! You must be a new fangled feminist.

Rule 1. Hairy armpits.

Rule 2. Smores around the bra-fire.

Rule 3.

I'm stuck :lol: I think Ken probably knows more about feminism than I do. He certainly references it enough. I just know I do not require a label to be myself, or to be conveniently dismissed by another. But hey you get arsehole feminist literalists just as often as you get biblical ones. Really anybody who bangs a drum way too hard is annoying. The nuance though is lost on Ken I suspect.

[latraviata]

NO NO NO! You must be a new fangled feminist.

Rule 1. Hairy armpits.

Rule 2. Smores around the bra-fire.

Rule 3.

I'm stuck :lol: I think Ken probably knows more about feminism than I do. He certainly references it enough. I just know I do not require a label to be myself, or to be conveniently dismissed by another. But hey you get arsehole feminist literalists just as often as you get biblical ones. Really anybody who bangs a drum way too hard is annoying. The nuance though is lost on Ken I suspect.

Rule 3. A collectively procured AI child.

[samurai_sarah]

Dear Ken,

Since you seem to have trouble with the whole internet/public information thing, allow me a suggestion: The internet is a small village, where everyone is in everyone else's business. You can control what information you put out there, but once it's done, *you* have no control about what the neighbours are thinking and saying about it. Take it from someone who grew up in a small village, where gossiping is the major form of entertainment. Oh, and don't ever expect it to die.

All the best, samurai_sarah

edited because information stays out there, and the internet doesn't forget.

[salex]

So we return to "you posted my business name. Whish we have been told over and over is not why heshowed up nut it sure comes up a lot

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ken - have you ever heard of Google?

If you post something on the web where there is public access, it's on Google. You can search it. Main blog posts, comments, the works.

This isn't some extra-special persecution of Christians. It's a basic fact of life in 2014. Employers can fire employees who are stupid enough to post beach and partying pics after they call in sick. Governments use it to track terrorists. I've had a number of cases where electronic communication was used as evidence. Sometimes, a search turns up information that casts new light on a previously one-dimensional portrayal on the internet. Would you be as offended to find out that I had a different view of one atheist's husband, whom she described in glowing terms, after I saw his blog posts where he argues that Hitler doesn't get credit for being a great leader, makes rape jokes, etc.?

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************

For fun, I found some commentary on Ephesians 5:

http://newlife.id.au/equality-and-gende ... h-5_22-33/

I also found it interesting that the word "submission" isn't actually part of the original text of Ephesians 5:22 at all!

********************************************************************************************************************************************************

My point in describing egalitarian marriage was that it isn't at all what you think it is. What on earth does that have to do with your response about whether someone is Christian?

If you and Lori had a good physical relationship, that's great. That's not, however, the impression that I got when she wrote this:

Believe me, when you have four small children under six years old, a husband who travels and is gone half the year, and your health is not good, sex is the last thing you feel like doing. Your husband will be pleased that you willingly meet his needs anyways whether you "enjoy' it or not since you have decided that he is a priority in your life and you are his help meet.

http://lorialexander.blogspot.ca/2013/0 ... chore.html

You've also mentioned numerous times, even in this thread, comments about wives "manipulating" or "controlling" husbands by refusing sex, mentioned sometimes in the same sentences that wives will actually expect husbands to help them with the kids before they are up to it, even described how a husband needs to step in a make a decision that sex will be more frequent if the husband and wife don't agree.

This all paints a picture of you as someone who doesn't view marital sex as a way to achieve true intimacy and show love, but rather as someone who merely sees it as the wife servicing the husband's physical needs because that's part of her job as a submissive wife. In your view, reluctance on her part is an "excuse" at best - suggesting that she is trying to get out of doing something that she ought to be doing, or deliberating manipulative and controlling. I don't see anything here that suggests that a husband should try to make sure that it's a pleasurable experience for the wife, as opposed to something mechanical to be tolerated.

Marital intimacy is unique. If submission is a military term...well, I don't think that the New Testament intended that military officers would be ordering soldiers to have sex with them.

[formergothardite]

OKTBTK:

And only could he not relate he opined that he suspected you probably hid a great deal of this in your working life hence in his opinion your reason for trying to appear reasonable and enter into a discourse on this forum. Or more succinctly he said. Damage limitation.

My husband has been reading along on this thread too and this is exactly what he said. He pointed out that Ken didn't come here until a thread mentioning contacting his peers. FJ has been discussing Lori for a long time, but it takes the threat of his peers finding out that he and his wife writes these sorts of things to bring him here. My husband is not in the dental business, but he is fairly high up in a management position. Anyway, when got to Ken's post about his employee that he pitied because she has five kids and the only reason he doesn't fire her is because he feels sorry for her, his response to reading that was:

"Holy fuck he is an idiot. You don't write that sort of shit on the internet, especially with your real name."

He also finds that most men are not like this in his work place. Most men don't want glorified sex dolls(we had a bet going on about if Ken would address that. I lost because I thought he would, Husband said he wouldn't) they don't want submission, they want an equal adult who they can be life partner with. They don't want to discipline their wives, they don't want anything like what Ken is describing. And I think on some level Ken knows that if his peers found out all this about him, they would not be impressed. They might now his wife blogs about being submissive, but my husband doubts they know how extreme they both are in this belief.

[Koala]

Lori has a specific focus on training women how to be great CHRISTIAN wives and mothers. She cannot be your end all and be all for your campaign against wife abuse.

Funny that...I thought Lori's blog was a "fun little hobby". When did it turn into Lori training other adults to be great wives and mothers? Not to state the obvious here, but I don't know many any people that would think Lori has been such a great wife or mother, that she is qualified to advise others .

As a wife she:

1) Disabled her birth control to manipulate her way out of working

As a mother she:

1) hit her small children with a leather strap

2) flicked nursing infants on their cheeks

3) swatted infants who dared to wiggle during a diaper change

4) openly admitted to letting infants as young as 3 weeks cry themselves to sleep

5) had a 4 hour long battle of the wills with an 18 month old

To imply that she is somehow qualified to advise others is laughable at best, unless her platform is "what not to do".

Lori's frame of reference is the Bible.

Both of us have made clear that physical abuse is not to be tolerated

At the risk of sounding repetitive, would you mind referencing the scripture that states that physical abuse should not be tolerated? Since Lori's frame of reference is the Bible, I'm sure she has it memorized.

Finally, any cleaning up on Lori's blog is by implied request of your fellow FJers so as to insure that some ore not misled by what we believe and want to represent. Spank harder is no something we believe in

Would you like to retract this statement or should I start quoting the multiple (yes multiple) times Lori has advised readers to hit harder? And before she rushes off to delete her own comments, let me assure you that they are already here, and I wouldn't even have to trouble myself going to her blog to find them.

[Koala]

I have zero issue with FJ discussing what Lori posts, but huge issues with the bullying, and exposing of personal information onto the world wide web.

Please cite an instance of Lori's personal information being released on FJ. I believe Curious has said she would remove it immediately if you would do so. **HINT** This does NOT include information that Lori herself has typed in a message to the world wide web ;)