Lori Alexander: Valentine's Day Causes Divorce

[Koala]

Maybe I have missed it, but has Ken addressed this question yet?

Ken, is it okay for a man to inflict pain on his wife if she consents?

Okay Ken, I am back and ready to discuss some of your comments. First off, can you answer this question? You seem to be avoiding it, and that's of some concern to me.

A yes or no will do. Do you think it's okay for a man to inflict pain on his wife if she consents?

[Firiel]

No my wife is rarely apologizing and has little to apologize for... but I get it. We must live in very different circles. Our experience is completely opposite yours, different worlds, but it can go both ways. Lori and I both see wives making husbands miserable much more tan vice versa... hence part of Lori's perspective maybe.

Lori has seen many women win over their difficult and disobedient husbands by their submissive and godly behavior. It is the promise of the Bible to Christian women and we often see it come true.

I am sorry to hear of any relationship not going well, and these women should seek wise counsel as to how they might deal with their men. If they are Christian men, they have a demand on their lives from God to sacrificially love their wives and to consider their wives as more important than they are.

This. The bolded pisses me off. I was married to a Christian man-- in a relationship that was the "conservative" ideal. We didn't have sex before marriage. He was (actually, IS) in the ministry. I'm thin, fit, and reasonably attractive. I submitted to my husband because I thought it was what I was supposed to do. I'm naturally submissive, so it was an easy pattern to adopt. I built my life plans around his career goals because, as a pastor, his calling was higher than mine. I kept submitting when he started to take advantage of me. As he treated me worse and worse, I heard SERMONS AT CHURCH telling me that all I could do was "take care of my side of the deal" and continue to submit. I heard that "promise"-- that if I submitted, I could win him back again.

Well, guess what? I submitted to his decision to move away for a job. Which then turned into him having an affair. And then he spread lies about my mental health to people to justify divorcing me (which he never did-- he just started saying he was divorced... I had to do the paperwork). And then, while I stayed silent and was STILL TRYING TO WIN HIM BACK through kindness and submissiveness, he (essentially) committed fraud and stole about $1,000 from me. While I was being submissive. While I was loving him despite what he did to me.

So no, it didn't work. And can you please tell me where in the Bible (an actual verse reference) that Christian women are promised that submitting will win over their "difficult and disobedient" husbands? Because if that's in the Bible, then God lied to me.

[Koala]

Koala:

Brutality Defined: A ruthless, cruel, harsh, or unrelenting act.

A spanking is no where near any of these things. So weird for people to even think that a swat for child discipline is brutality!!! when spankings have been practiced for 4000+ years.

Would you not agree that with my children I should be able to use a time tested and proven method of discipline that was used on me, my dad. his dad, you get the point... forever back? To train and discipline children.

We part ways on our definitions of what does and does not constitute "cruel, harsh, and brutal". I believe that anytime you (as an adult) purposefully inflict pain on a child (let's say by striking them with a leather strap) that your actions are violent, cruel, harsh, and brutal.

That is was done in history has a sum total of ZERO effect of my views. Many things were done in history that are now viewed and inexcusable. As far as I am concerned this is one of them.

I speak on behalf of school teachers because I have friends who teach, and my best friend who retires after 30 years this year. He is one of the top teachers in the County each year, Nationally recognized, and made miserable many hours of the day by trashing talking back teenagers who received no discipline at home. Many parents have lost control and the school has no control but time outs which are ineffective for teens. Win a child to good, not perfect, obedience by age 5 and you have a much easier tie of maintaining such discipline with the teenager.

Ken, having a friend or even multiple friends who are school teachers does not qualify you to speak on behalf of all of them. Further, you have no idea exactly what is causing this reported behavior and certainly no way to credibly link it to lack of spanking. On the contrary, peer reviewed studies have linked spanking to long term negative effects. I'd be happy to quote the studies and the advice of the American Academy of Pediatrics if you'd like.

[formergothardite]

This. The bolded pisses me off. I was married to a Christian man-- in a relationship that was the "conservative" ideal. We didn't have sex before marriage. He was (actually, IS) in the ministry. I'm thin, fit, and reasonably attractive. I submitted to my husband because I thought it was what I was supposed to do. I'm naturally submissive, so it was an easy pattern to adopt. I built my life plans around his career goals because, as a pastor, his calling was higher than mine. I kept submitting when he started to take advantage of me. As he treated me worse and worse, I heard SERMONS AT CHURCH telling me that all I could do was "take care of my side of the deal" and continue to submit. I heard that "promise"-- that if I submitted, I could win him back again.

Well, guess what? I submitted to his decision to move away for a job. Which then turned into him having an affair. And then he spread lies about my mental health to people to justify divorcing me (which he never did-- he just started saying he was divorced... I had to do the paperwork). And then, while I stayed silent and was STILL TRYING TO WIN HIM BACK through kindness and submissiveness, he (essentially) committed fraud and stole about $1,000 from me. While I was being submissive. While I was loving him despite what he did to me.

So no, it didn't work. And can you please tell me where in the Bible (an actual verse reference) that Christian women are promised that submitting will win over their "difficult and disobedient" husbands? Because if that's in the Bible, then God lied to me.

I'm so sorry you went through this. I currently know a woman who has been trying submission for close to 30 years and her husband is just as big as an asshole today as when she started. She is a shell of herself. It makes me angry that the person who she used to be no longer exists because she has spent so many years trying to mold herself into the submissive wife that will win over her husband. He doesn't beat her, he hasn't cheated, but he treats her like shit and is emotionally abusive. She spends her life walking on eggshells trying to make sure she doesn't do anything to make him mad. And if she tries to stand up for herself then he and her church goes straight to the "you need to submit" line.

I'll take my non-biblical, non-submissive marriage any day over that.

[Koala]

Koala: Yes Lori and I were discussing today the one time in the comment section where Lori told a mom whose kid was always getting out of bed to spank harder. Like it or not the spanking has to hurt to be effective and many young mothers complain their child blows right through the spanking precisely because it does not get the child's attention.

I find your assertion that Lori has only advised one parent to "hit harder" highly questionable, and if I have time today I will make a point of scanning her posts for other times she has given such advice. In the meantime let's look at the time you are referring to:

We have a very difficult child. I remember you posting a blog post about parenting the hard way (sitting at the top of the stairs). I agree that does sound exhausting, but I believe parenting this way is more difficult...at least at first. It takes a huge commitment to be consistent and not let things go because you're tired or feel like you've been disciplining all. day. long. My daughter (almost 4) we adopted when she was 15 months old, and my husband and I are very disappointed about disciplining. When we adopted her she was with her grandparents the 6 months prior. Her grandparents tried to overcompensate for the neglect by being extremely permissive, so when we brought her home she did not know what the word "no" was. We had MANY around 2 hour "training" sessions. Example: She would take a toy from her brother. I put her in time-out and made her stay. Then, I said, "Lexie, come here so mommy can talk to you." She would shake her head no with a defiant face. I would go over spank her and then put her back in time-out. A minute or so later I would ask her to come over to talk to mommy again and she would shake her head no again and a spanking happened again. I remembered once this process took around 2 hours until she finally caved in and came over when I asked her to. It was beyond exhausting.

Now, a few years later, we still have moments like this. She still gets spankings daily for disobeying, lying, talking back and other stuff. We do love on her a lot, and I make sure every spanking encounter ends in a hug and an "I love you." You seem to post that spankings will cause children to change almost instantly (like she still gets out of bed at night and it always results in a spanking, no exception), but what if it doesn't? My 2 other kids that are old enough for spankings it does change their behavior after only a few encounters. My oldest son (just 2 months older than Lexie) hardly gets any spankings anymore.

She pushes any situation as far as she can get. If she's with grandparents she is very bad because they don't enforce anything. My mother-in-law says "You guys are so consistent and strict with her. When is she going to learn to behave?" I don't know what to say. BTW, when she is naughty for grandparents or aunts she gets a spanking for us after the fact, but that hasn't changed future behavior.

Sorry for the long post, this has just been wearing on me a lot lately.

I can quote Lori's response to this mother again if you'd like, but we both know she advised her to hit harder.

We are talking about a child that had a questionable home life before the age of 15 months. Her mother (later in the comments) report adopting her at a time when money was tight. She further reports that while this 4 year old adopted child requires daily spankings and 2 hour "training sessions" her own biological children are hardly ever spanked.

Now one might think that at this point Lori might acknowledge that mom is in over her head and needs some outside help. One might think that Lori would acknowledge that she is in no way qualified to be handing out advice to mothers of adopted children who are clearly not well equipped to deal with the child/children they have been entrusted with. But not Lori...Lori is so full of herself and sure of her "teaching" that she simply advises this woman to hit harder.

Cruel is allowing a child to become an undisciplined teenager.

If I truly believed that the only way for me to effectively parents was to hit my child, then I would immediately acknowledge that I wasn't fit to parent in the first place.

And answer this Koala, the big elephant in the the room is abortion. How many on this blog hate the ideas of spankings yet advocate for abortions even in the last trimester where the aborted baby is in huge amount of pain? Where has morality gone when many here on this site can murder a child in the womb, yet get so emotional about a child having a stinging bottom for 10-15 seconds? Messed up I say and I sure hope you are not one who is pro choice because in my book those people are the biggest hypocrites of all when it comes to any discussion against spankings. Done appropriately the discipline learned from spankings saves lives.

Hopefully I am wring and you all are pro-life as much as you are trying to protect my children.

Ken, if your defense of spanking is so piss poor that you must deflect to a different subject entirely, then you are in worse shape than I originally suspected. You assertion that spanking saves lives is the most ridiculous thing I have heard you say yet, and I'd eat my shoe if you could find a single peer reviewed study suggesting otherwise.

[Ken]

The women I am speaking of are in conservative Christian circles. They are women who are told to keep submitting to their husband even though they are miserable and it is crushing their souls. They are the women I watch become skeletons of themselves and they keep submitting. I've seen a couple of the women finally stand up for themselves, stop submitting and become happier people. Some of their marriages became happier after that, some fell apart because the men only wanted a doormat, not a human for a wife. What would Lori tells these women when after years and years the promise of submission winning their husbands over has never come true, and they are stuck in a cycle of misery and emotional abuse?

I found this quote from you in another thread. It is from the "Yes, Lori went there thread":

Submission does not have to be perfect to be both effective and pleasing to your husband. He just wants to know you are trying, and that when the fight is over, you will come to him and snuggle up and whisper in his ear, "I am so sorry, I have been a very naughty girl. Will you forgive me?"

Do you understand that many, many men not only don't want this but would find it creepy? My husband is one of those men. Even before we became atheists "naughty girl" was not our kink. It seems like this is a kinky, sex related thing for you based on that. Where in the Bible does the "naughty girl" wife get brought up?

Also, did you ever answer if you agree with Lori that you would rather your kids never be born than become like me and turn into non-believers? At least my parents aren't that bad.

ETA: Is Ken the fundie husband that said that men NEED sex so women should give it no matter what even if they aren't in the mood and feel bad? What sort of husband WANTS to have sex with their wife knowing that she isn't in the mood and it is making her feel worse? Not a loving one that is for sure. My heathen husband wouldn't treat me that way. When I spent months after a pregnancy recovering from a C-section and just not in the mood for sex he didn't pressure. He just loved me. He has a hand and we have lotion if he feels the need. But he put my needs before his sex drive.

Where do you live? Texas? Or the heat of the Bible belt? I have lived in and out of the US and been involved in a number of churches... and I know such relationships must exist as they form the polar opposite to what Lori is speaking to... unsbmissive women. This si not our experience that the modern Christian wife is submissive or even taught by her church to be submissive. Lori's message is quite unique even if it is a massage that is over 2000 years old as it was abandoned by the church when feminism began to rule our society. So you all want to eradicate the message everywhere... even if it appears in the Bible more than 8-10 times... Right?

Yes, those are probably my words. I did not realize that naughty meant anything other than being bad. Are you saying this is a bedroom word and code word for sex? Or a certain type of sex? If so, you are really stretching things here to assume that I would know this. FYI, Lori has never called herself naughty to me... I just chose the word as it came to mind. Wrong or bad? Are those the words you would have wanted me to use?

ETA... I am not sure what you are referring to... but on the surface most younger men always feel the NEED sex. I have no interest in having sex with a wife in a foul mood, or no matter what... so IO doubt you are referring to me. But keep making this stuff up with your slants so that just like with much else about me and SSM with her husband abusing her you all can churn it all around long enough to get yourselves to actually believe it all to be true.

I was in a church fight once that loos like much of what you all are doing. You take half a quote, sometimes no facts at all, and put it trough your "telephone" lime that we played as kids and the next thing you know you have RosyDaisy all wanting Satan because you have her so stirred up over the lies that are being told. Get some light on your yourselves and find out the whole truth. truth has facets to it.. it is not black and white, but take what someone may say and overemphasize it, or embellish it... then label them and you have done Satan's work for him. Sorry RosyDaisy has me worked with her sour attitude and Koala just trying so hard to find something we did wrong as parents, as if there are perfect parents out there. The proof is in the puddling... let's put some of your kids up as examples of what parenting should look like.

[Koala]

Koala just trying so hard to find something we did wrong as parents, as if there are perfect parents out there. The proof is in the puddling... let's put some of your kids up as examples of what parenting should look like.

So I can assume that you won't be addressing my question about whether it's acceptable for a man to inflict pain on his wife if she consents?

If directly quoting you and your wife making yourselves look like bad parents puts you in a sour mood, then perhaps you should more carefully screen what you put out for public consumption.

I find it objectionable enough that you put so much info about your kids on Lori's blog, and I can assure you that I won't participate by discussing my own with the likes of you.

I have a couple of things to do, but I will be back to continue replying to your earlier comments.

[Koala]

**side note** Ken is probably in a sour mood because this is the first time he's offered himself up to women who have half a brain and the confidence to fight back. Now that he is being quoted and made to face contradictions that he can not explain he probably won't be long in leaving. Not much fun is it Ken?

[lizziesmom]

**side note** Ken is probably in a sour mood because this is the first time he's offered himself up to women who have half a brain and the confidence to fight back. Now that he is being quoted and made to face contradictions that he can not explain he probably won't be long in leaving. Not much fun is it Ken?

He needs an editor. Hor isn't the correct spelling for whore and I don't think the expression is "Proof is in the Puddling." :lol:

I guess he's now going to be on here night and day spouting his point of view. Unfortunately the Kens of the world are not capable of or interested in honest debate. They hear only themselves.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, if we're talking anecdata, I'll mention that my mother just retired after a 45-year teaching career during which she earning her M.Ed. and was a specialist in special education, ESL and French. She had taught in both urban and suburban schools, and in schools that ranged widely in terms of both socio-economic levels and number of immigrants. My SIL is currently a teacher, as is my best friend. Here's what they tell me:

There is a HUGE variation from one school to another.

Generally speaking, the students reflect the attitudes that they learn at home. In higher-income areas, parents automatically expect that their children will go to university, and most do. In lower-income areas, where the parents may not value education, being smart is not cool and failing is seen as a joke. In areas where the parents come from ethnic groups that tend to be louder and more assertive, the kids tend to be louder and more assertive. In areas where the parents come from ethnic groups that revere teachers and education, the kids tend to be easy to handle and well-motivated. In areas where the parents are new immigrants working 3 jobs who constantly tell the children that they have a responsibility to do well and get a good education, the kids are not spoiled and are prepared to work hard. In areas where the parents expect children to study 10 hours a day and enroll them in Kumon after school and during summers, the kids tend to get top grades. In schools where families are a mess and kids are largely left to fend for themselves, homework doesn't get done and kids don't get bathed or fed properly. In areas where the school gets all their students from housing projects, students basically go through life without knowing a family where the parents have a steady job, and it's far harder for them to picture their own futures. If a child is experiencing serious chaos, abuse or neglect at home, it will show in their behavior at school.

[Ken]

So you respect all of your female coworkers, yet you call one "strong headed" and give her marriage advice--which you presumably give to make other marriages more like your own. Would you have used the term "strong headed" to describe a male coworker, or given a male coworker marriage advice?

Also, this is a forum, not a blog. Those are different things.

See wrong again ... I had a manger who all her coworkers complained about her being string headed and difficult. I spoke to her about it as a good manager would and I was very kind. She said to me, "I am sorry but none of what you are saying to me makes any sense, because I am not that way."

That shocked me, but I then asked her to think about it and talk to her best friend or husband about it and we agreed she would let me know what they said. She called me and told me that her husband said this was something he wanted to talk to her about for some time now.

No marriage advice... just dealing with workplace issues so that her coworkers could exist with her and would no longer request that I fire her. I am into the redemption business, not the firing business and do whatever it takes within reason to help coworkers get along and enjoy each other.

But again another jump to wrong conclusions... when you are predisposed to seeing evil around every bush... guess what... you see things that are not real.

[Koala]

Koala, I can't keep up with you.

There's absolutely no question about that.

Yes, my oldest was a professional ballerina for 11 years and made it to #2 in her company making me very proud and in tears watching her perform. She was/is spectacular. Do you know of a ballerina without body image issues? When your whole professional career is banked on what you look like and how you can dance? It was her choice at age 11 and we honored it.

*IF* as you say you don't know any ballerinas without body image issues, then why on earth would you allow an 11 year old child to enter into such a thing?

As the parent of a daughter I have been approached about dance, pageants and the like. We said no because we were concerned about that very issue. We feel that it's highly inappropriate to place a child in a situation where they will be judged on the basis of their looks, or where they are in a situation that body image issues are a given. It doesn't make a hill of beans to us whether the child wishes to be in that situation or not. As parents we can see around corners that they can't always see around and it's our job to protect them.

Her body image issues had nothing to do with her parents except we found out some of this stuff way too late. Alyssa had dreams and goals which we were willing to support financially and Lori drove her to ballet class 15 minutes away, and then back every day sometimes 6 days a week, not to mention performances all over.

As much as we loved what Alyssa was doing w had serious concerns in her teen years about the Master Teacher. It was long after Alyssa left home that she told us she would go to class and as they warmed up the teacher would single out girls and bring them aside to talk to them about their weight if she saw them gaining weight. It was a small studio so Alyssa often overheard the comments.

Tough if you are a ballet teacher and you have to train girls for the next level you are in an impossible situation when it comes to a discussion of weight. As far as I can recall, Alyssa was never singled out to be talked to but it scared her to death just the idea. Everyone was afraid of the teacher as she went after me once for filming my daughter perform. She was the only Maser Teacher within an hour... and she loved her girls, but she was really old school and strict.

our daughter was never close to anorexic and usually carried a little extra on her compared to many of the girls dancing with her. We always thought that was her body type. She danced professionally not as skinny as the others, but looked gorgeous as the company she was with was modest and bottoms were always covered with skirts or dresses.

Now that she is a Barre and Ballet Instructor she is even less weight than when she danced professionally and eating healthy and whatever she wants because she is always working out as she teaches training and ballet.

Let's take a closer look at what your daughter said:

I had not even hit puberty and I was worried that I was too curvy or not skinny enough. Not only did my image disorder cause insecurity, but it gave rise to a host of other issues: bad eating habits, depression, injuries, foggy thinking, sleepless nights, and more.

Did you or Lori not notice that your daughter was eating poorly and depressed? Because I find Alyssa's words sad when you look at what Lori has to say:

As our daughters got older, if we thought they were gaining weight, we would talk to them about it. I know this is supposedly a "taboo" subject but we felt no subject was "taboo" with our children. If we saw any sin in their lives, we would talk to them about it.

So did you/Lori, or did you not confront Alyssa regarding her weight gain? If so, did you/Lori refer to her weight gain as sin?

[Firiel]

This. The bolded pisses me off. I was married to a Christian man-- in a relationship that was the "conservative" ideal. We didn't have sex before marriage. He was (actually, IS) in the ministry. I'm thin, fit, and reasonably attractive. I submitted to my husband because I thought it was what I was supposed to do. I'm naturally submissive, so it was an easy pattern to adopt. I built my life plans around his career goals because, as a pastor, his calling was higher than mine. I kept submitting when he started to take advantage of me. As he treated me worse and worse, I heard SERMONS AT CHURCH telling me that all I could do was "take care of my side of the deal" and continue to submit. I heard that "promise"-- that if I submitted, I could win him back again.

Well, guess what? I submitted to his decision to move away for a job. Which then turned into him having an affair. And then he spread lies about my mental health to people to justify divorcing me (which he never did-- he just started saying he was divorced... I had to do the paperwork). And then, while I stayed silent and was STILL TRYING TO WIN HIM BACK through kindness and submissiveness, he (essentially) committed fraud and stole about $1,000 from me. While I was being submissive. While I was loving him despite what he did to me.

So no, it didn't work. And can you please tell me where in the Bible (an actual verse reference) that Christian women are promised that submitting will win over their "difficult and disobedient" husbands? Because if that's in the Bible, then God lied to me.

Ken, could you point me in the direction of the Bible verse that promises a Christian woman that if she continue to submit to her difficult or disobedient husbands that she will win him over? I've read the Bible through several times, and I can't recall reading that.

[Ken]

Ken,

Why can't women have it both ways? I am a single mom, and although her child support easily covers all of her necessities, I still want her to have a good life. So I go to school three quarters time so I can make sure she doesn't grow up poor like I did, and so I am not a burden on everyone else. Would Lori honestly have me stay home with my daughter and leech off if taxpayers money? Would you?

Fundie Friday is early!

My strong support for you FMJ... and what you do is heroic. Please continue to study and do the best you can with your situation. I have coworkers in your situation and they have hard lives, but their baby and child is such a joy to them and worth every minute of extra sacrifice.

Lori's message is to wives who choose a career over raising their children. She is not saying it is impossible to do, but she is saying, please please think twice IF you have the resources to make ends meet without working. I think Lori would support you in what you are doing, but tell you to surround yourself with family and other support. You should not have to go at this alone, and if gov't support is available to you... take it. Best would be to find a Christian young man who loves you and your child enough to make a lifelong commitment to sacrifice even working two jobs, if that sis what it takes to be a SAHM. One child I think can be managed with a job or part time job, but two and three is next to impossible... BUT one young lady who works for me has five children under the age of 8 and she works full time. It breaks my heart to see it, but I can do noting but keep passing bonuses and raises to her as fast as I can while being fair to all her coworkers. If she was any other worker she would be fired because of her very spotty attendance... but we love her and try to support her as best we can, and now that her husband is out of prison and working, hopefully soon she can go to 3 or 4 days a week.

Keep being strong ... it is hard, but education is a way to get through all of this. Lori knows this is not a perfect world, and perhaps she is too idealistic having been married to me a strong provider much of her life. I am not idealistic... I see women like you daily and work with hundreds of them. You all amaze me.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I don't usually believe in shameless brags about my kids, but since you asked.....I have 3 children.

Girl 1 is a high school student. She is highly responsible and organized. In addition to her heavy course load, she also does volunteer work. Her marks are in the 80s and 90s, with the lowest being 82. She's the one who will make a huge thank you sign and bake a cake for her grandparents, and who will clean up if she sees a mess. Her teachers love her. She plans to become a doctor, and wants to work with medical relief organizations like Doctors Without Borders.

Girl 2 is in middle school. She was the top student in her elementary school. She is both intelligent and independent, and does her work quietly without any prompting or help from us. She's fairly quiet, according to all of her teachers, but she opens up with her friends. She tends to play the role of peacemaker and counselor with them, as she hates conflict. Her teachers have described her as "perfect" and said "I wish all of my students were just like her". She is adored by her younger cousins. She wants to be a family therapist and/or psychologist.

Boy 1 is in elementary school. He's a cheerful, smart, athletic kid who also has a sensitive side. He has a soft spot for younger kids, and is a "recess buddy" to 1st grade students. He tries to get along with everyone, and has friends from different groups. He also has a strong sense of right and wrong and fair play. While he's very competitive on the ice or field, he will always play fair and value teamwork and sportsmanship. He also loves to read, loves play math games and loves helping care for his younger cousins. His teachers all think that he's great.

I was blessed with kids who are naturally pretty smart and easy, so I won't take credit for that. I will say, though, that we do not use physical punishment and managed to produce 3 exceptionally well-behaved and self-disciplined children, so I do not see spanking as necessary. I do believe that it would have been harmful with my girls, since they both did things that Lori has said should merit a spanking. My oldest was a fussy eater and didn't want to sleep alone, while my middle was very stubborn and independent. If I had seen this as evil defiance, there would have been a lot of spanking, and probably a lot of frustration. Instead, I used positive discipline in a way that didn't ignore their personalities, and they are wonderful.

[Firiel]

I'm so sorry you went through this. I currently know a woman who has been trying submission for close to 30 years and her husband is just as big as an asshole today as when she started. She is a shell of herself. It makes me angry that the person who she used to be no longer exists because she has spent so many years trying to mold herself into the submissive wife that will win over her husband. He doesn't beat her, he hasn't cheated, but he treats her like shit and is emotionally abusive. She spends her life walking on eggshells trying to make sure she doesn't do anything to make him mad. And if she tries to stand up for herself then he and her church goes straight to the "you need to submit" line.

I'll take my non-biblical, non-submissive marriage any day over that.

It scares me to think about how easily I could have become that woman after years and years of being stomped on. It's strange because I've never been fundie, and I've always been able to think for myself and see shades of gray. Even when trying SO HARD to submit, I never would have told another woman that it was her duty to do so. But I had tried standing up for myself somewhat and it hadn't worked (because standing up for yourself pisses off abusers, even of the emotional variety). The nebulous "they" said that submitting more would work, so I tried it. Add desperation to cultural expectations to a natural perfectionist, and it's a recipe for disaster.

[Koala]

Should I quote myself again, or would that be rude???? Questions, questions. Eh, what the hell.

Maybe I have missed it, but has Ken addressed this question yet?

Ken, is it okay for a man to inflict pain on his wife if she consents?

Damn but it would almost seem like Ken is ignoring this one...surely not though! Surely! :roll:

[Ken]

I have to get to work,. and then try to get back on with answering questions tonight.

Koala... it is too long a story for now as to how Alyssa chose at 10-11 to become a professional ballerina, but I can almost recall the day. Alyssa danced for some of the major companies during summer camps, but she had chosen at 10 or 11 a Christian Ballet Group Ballet Magnificat to be her life mission when she grew up. She was our first, and we knew nothing about body image for teens or any other issues with ballet back then. You have a perspective today that is much more enlightened, mainly because of the Internet and the much faster flow of communications. Keep that in mind in context as you judge us. Knowledge is now abounding.

We also have had little fear about what God is calling our kids to... whether professional ballet or an orthodontist, EXCEPT for the secular universities that spew secular thinking as if it is some great wisdom, and profs who mock anything religious or Christian in their classrooms. But fear about body image? We do not expect to go through life with zero struggles, we just expect God and His wisdom to be there with us through it all.. even if we make mistakes, because we will not handle everything perfectly.

Yes, we talked to Alyssa about her weight gain, but we did it as we thought sensibly. Alyssa would never be considered fat but she carried with her some fat in the areas women tend to get it, and it doesn't work for ballet well. Fortunately, the group she danced for always wore elegant longer dresses to the knees... and all looked better than regular ballet in my opinion. I do not like the skinny look myself, and Alyssa looked good, but a couple of times probably added an extra 5 lbs on top of the 5 she normally carried more than most ballerinas. We suspected that Alyssa had a lower functioning thyroid and it runs in my family, and we discussed this with her as she seemed to eat like a bird.

I think if you ask her now she would say that shew as eating far more than she was keeping track of with her friends and eating the wrong stuff. She loves snacking... chips and crackers... and ice cream is her weakness. She knew full well of our love for her no matter what weight, and we assured her that ballet or no ballet she was just fine in our books, but if she wanted to do ballet, discipline with snacking and ice cream was necessary.

Does anyone want to hear that tey have gained an extra 5 lbs in the behind? Of course not. But yo are a parent, so tell me how you plan on handling it when your daughter is now 10 lbs overweight? No time to panic, but is it not time to talk to her to help see where you can be a help in getting her the right foods and habits? What kind of parent let's a child go to 12-15 lbs overweight and never says a word to discuss it with them. No blame, no condemnation.. actually I shared with Alyssa my struggles with keeping weight off... it is a life long battle for most of us. How about 20 lbs is that when you step in... and kick yourself for not loving your child enough to step in earlier?

Parents... talk to your kids about weight before they even become overweight. Be sensible about it, explain the body type, but fat is fat no matter where you store it... and a little extra is healthy and a lot extra is not.

No Lori most likely never referred to weighty gain as sin... because it is not. Gluttony is sin, but some natural weight gain is not sin, and neither is it sin to be fat. What misses God's mark (sin) is not being the best we can be in the important area of keeping in shape. Some can carry extra weight and be in shape. Some like me cannot as it all goes to one place.

[formergothardite]

I have a longer response to Ken when I have the time, but I find it telling that he answered all my questions except the one asking if he agrees with Lori that it would be better if their kids were never born if they end up being non-believers.

[Ken]

Friel: I Peter 3:1-8 says:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."

I have to work today, so no more fun for me until, perhaps tonight. And a sincere thank you for allowing me to respond to your inquires. If you think the Alexanders or me, we sound too perfect... you are correct. I do not want to be known as a "know it all fundie" and I want to always have an open dialogue and respect others opinions and thoughts... BUT my filter has to be the Word of God. Show me in God's Word where we need to change and I am all over that kind of change. If we come across as unloving and too dogmatic... I get it... and not yet sure how to change that for me first, then I can try and help Lori perhaps... if she is willing because she does see you all as deep evil... especially with some of the things your group has sent to her... then you wonder why her delete button is so itchy? It didn't used to be... but it was the garbage that turned her off to perhaps some of your saner comments. Regardless, we all have work to do in moving to a better understanding of each other... calling evil evil, yet leaving room for diversity of thought and differences of opinions.

I have to work. You will destroy my business by keeping me here all day :).

[Firiel]

It seems he's only answering the questions he feels he can answer without sounding like a total jack-hat or admitting he's wrong. Surprise, surprise.

Also, he didn't know that "naughty" had any sexual connotations, really!

[Ken]

formergothardite: dang it... I don't have time for all the questions and I miss some.

I don't know the answer to your question. I love my kids they are my life. You ask me the impossible, but I can tell you the thought of them in hell for eternity is so awful I don't want to think about it.

This can't just be a yes or no answer. Honestly? Do I have to choose one or the other when I can have both... this earth with them and the next? Unless I knew for sure sure that they were going to hell, I would think I would battle to get them saved all of their lives to their death bed.

Now how about you... you know for a fact your kids are going to hell.. hypothetically of course... are you sure you want them born? For sure they are with weeping and gnashing of teeth for ETERNITY! Are you sure?

I am open to all reasonable questions.. I do not claim to have all the answers... just like you all I am on a journey seeking truth, as it is the truth that sets us free... right?

and I hunt and peck when I type... so take it easy on me :).

[Loveday]

I have to work. You will destroy my business by keeping me here all day :).

No one is keeping you here at all. You joined of your own free will and started this thread for the express purpose of 'splainin' yourself and Lori, and for us to ask questions. So don't blame us if you aren't getting your work done.

See, it's not always women's fault, is it? 8-)

[Firiel]

Friel: I Peter 3:1-8 says:

Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered."

Okay, so that doesn't sound like a promise to me, but you are interpreting it as one. God promises that submitting to a husband will draw him back to you if he is disobedient. So. I submitted. My ex is still a cruel, hypocritical liar. At this point, there are three options.

1) God lied.

2) It was my fault-- submitting to abuse, cheating, and theft wasn't enough.

3) You are interpreting the verse incorrectly.

If you don't mind my asking, which is it, Ken? Honestly, if you want to choose #2 and put the blame on me, I won't even be mad. I've heard it before. I'd actually be impressed that you were honest enough to admit that this kind of thinking places the blame on victims of abuse. Most people insist on talking around it.

[GeoBQn]

I'm starting to wonder how he has enough time in the day to type multiple "walls o' text" when he types by hunting and pecking.