Lori Alexander: Valentine's Day Causes Divorce

[lilwriter85]

Well Ken, if it's really you, what you wrote is a lot more legitimate and balanced than anything your wife has every written, so I'm not sure if you think she personally should get a pass or if you're just not familiar with the way the internet works.

Anything written on the internet is not written in a vacuum- that's what personal diaries are for. Your wife is writing for consumption, otherwise she would be putting pen to paper like so many others do. We take objection to the things she writes, because often she writes them as mandates for others. Even if she only writes her own personal thoughts, she is choosing to publish them on the internet for everyone to read. Therefore, everyone can and should read them. If she doesn't like that, the onus is on her to stop publishing her personal thoughts.

That's how it works- your wife writes a blog that she publishes to the public. She may wish that she could write to a specific audience that she herself mandates, but that's not feasible. So anything your wife writes will be critiqued by others, and since she so often writes about you, you will be considered and discussed by others. Such is life on the internet, it isn't going to change.

If it affects your business, again the onus is on her to stop publishing information for the public to consume. Do you believe it is everyone else's job to simply never discuss what they read on the internet? Do you believe your wife and by extension you should be afforded a privacy that she is not asking for simply because there are people who disagree with her? That, my friend, is crazy.

This.

[Loveday]

Much as I appreciated reading your post, Ken, I'm not going to quote the entire wall 'o text, just the bits I want to address right now.

...You all are so strange though because you are OK with thinking about destroying my business, yet you are distraught of the thought of Lori getting a spanking? There again, an upside down world of thinking. ...

No. Not all of us. I for one am totally against doing anything that would affect your business in any way, and expressed my concerns about that in a recent post.

...I am game to answer any of your questions. I know that some of you post on Lori's blog then get instantly zapped as she loves the power to delete. I think it is going to her head. Remember, what she sees as her purpose and it is not to entertain a bunch of objectionable ideas and foul language but "to train the younger women to love their husbands and be keepers at home." These are believing women, not you all....

Again, not all of us. Some of us here are believers, we're not all atheists or agnostics. We're here for many reasons, but one big reason is that although we're Christians, we're disturbed by the oppression and abuse, both mental and physical, we see happening in the Christian patriarchy movement. We may not believe in exactly the same things you and Lori do, but we ARE Christians, nonetheless, so please don't lump all of Free Jinger together as one monolithic entity.

And as for Lori zapping posts, she's zapped a couple of mine that had neither foul language nor anything else but a sincere question or observation. You know, credibility is important in the blogging world; if she wants to retain hers, she might want to reconsider zapping anything and everything that doesn't totally toe her line. And that bit of advice is from a fellow 'older woman'--I may even be older than Lori. 8-)

[lilwriter85]

Much as I appreciated reading your post, Ken, I'm not going to quote the entire wall 'o text, just the bits I want to address right now.

No. Not all of us. I for one am totally against doing anything that would affect your business in any way, and expressed my concerns about that in a recent post.

Again, not all of us. Some of us here are believers, we're not all atheists or agnostics. We're here for many reasons, but one big reason is that although we're Christians, we're disturbed by the oppression and abuse, both mental and physical, we see happening in the Christian patriarchy movement. We may not believe in exactly the same things you and Lori do, but we ARE Christians, nonetheless, so please don't lump all of Free Jinger together as one monolithic entity.

And as for Lori zapping posts, she's zapped a couple of mine that had neither foul language nor anything else but a sincere question or observation. You know, credibility is important in the blogging world; if she wants to retain hers, she might want to reconsider zapping anything and everything that doesn't totally toe her line. And that bit of advice is from a fellow 'older woman'--I may even be older than Lori. 8-)

Well said. Ken, why does Lori have to "train younger women to love their husband and be keepers at home?"

[Full enough quiver]

If what he wrote is true, then in many ways, their marriage is similar to mine. My submission is willingly given to a worthy leader, not because he is a man, but because he is my man. I would probably be the submissive partner if I was a lesbian. Its just my personality. What would happen if Lori decided not to submit anymore?

My problem with Lori isn't that she writes things I disagree with. She is entitled to her opinion. I even, on occasion, find grains of truth in her writing. I agree that consistent discipline when a child is young means less need for discipline later, although I didn't need to spank my child to get my point accross. I believe spanking is lazy parenting. For example, a person looking for a mate should make every effort to look their personal best, but that is no reason to shame overweight people. Couples should get on the same page when it comes to their expectations. My husband didn't acknowlege Valentines day, it bothered me, I told him so (nicely), he apologized, we moved on. We aren't getting divorced.

My problem is that she seems to believe that her way is the only way, and everyone else is ungodly. Everyone can have something to teach us. A person who is truly "always learning" would be willing to learn from other people that live differently.

[Loveday]

If what he wrote is true, then in many ways, their marriage is similar to mine. My submission is willingly given to a worthy leader, not because he is a man, but because he is my man. I would probably be the submissive partner if I was a lesbian. Its just my personality. What would happen if Lori decided not to submit anymore?

My problem with Lori isn't that she writes things I disagree with. She is entitled to her opinion. I even, on occasion, find grains of truth in her writing. I agree that consistent discipline when a child is young means less need for discipline later, although I didn't need to spank my child to get my point accross. I believe spanking is lazy parenting. For example, a person looking for a mate should make every effort to look their personal best, but that is no reason to shame overweight people. Couples should get on the same page when it comes to their expectations. My husband didn't acknowlege Valentines day, it bothered me, I told him so (nicely), he apologized, we moved on. We aren't getting divorced.

My problem is that she seems to believe that her way is the only way, and everyone else is ungodly. Everyone can have something to teach us. A person who is truly "always learning" would be willing to learn from other people that live differently.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[GeoBQn]

My issue with Lori isn't just that she advocates her way as the only way. (Or, rather, "You are free to disagree with me, but I am only saying what comes from the Bible and anybody who does differently will go to Hell.") It's also that the advice she gives has the potential to cause lasting physical and psychological harm. Examples include:

-Telling a child abuse survivor to go against her gut feelings and keep beating her children.

-Saying there is no good reason to get vaccines and other forms of Western medicine, while also advocating quack remedies like Black Salve that are more harmful than the original condition.

-Pointing to a story about children abusing a dog as a good example of how a wife should react with meekness to a husband's anger.

[Ken]

Oh Wow, you all must be up early to have so many questions. I can't spend all day on the blog but will try to get started with your issues.

First, yes, Lori and I have differing thoughts and views on certain subjects. Not far off from each other because we both hold strongly to God's Word as authoritative, but as some of you rightly point out within Christianity can be various points of view, and no, not all can be correct. So there is a battle for ideas even within the church and we use the Bible to try and defend what we believe.

Two issues were mentioned above with which Lori and I do not have complete agreement. Is spanking the only way, and does God demand it? I say no, she would lean towards yes, but won’t come out and fully say it to me. Maybe she has written it somewhere, but I try to, if you read my comments, make clear that spanking a child is not in and of itself a “godly†thing to do. Spanking is an effective tool to train a child before an age that they even really remember getting a spanking. I cannot remember spanking one of my kids past age 4, and generally our spankings were swats. Sitting on the fireplace steps was our most effective discipline tool which was used often, but defiance in a child met with a swat.

The second issue Lori and I are not in complete agreement is working mothers. I work with hundreds of working mothers throughout the world in my job. Some are highly successful doing both but there is a huge burden on way too many of them. Some would have it no other way, they love their jobs, but a woman cannot have it all. She ends up with two jobs even if her husband is a saint and helps as much as she does with the kids and the home. It is tough life, and if it has to be, so be it. But Lori believes it is better to live in a small home, with no 401K and rice and beans than give up the joy and significant benefits for the kids as a SAHM.

guidedbybobafett: “So anything your wife writes will be critiqued by others, and since she so often writes about you, you will be considered and discussed by others. Such is life on the internet, it isn't going to change.â€

How do yo9u do that blue stuff anyway to show quotes ?

In any case, I am not just discussed by you all, I am slandered, libeled and called as host of foul names for something my wife publishes. Don’t get me wrong, I am all for her speaking her mind, and you can’t have it both ways. You accuse me of controlling her and making her write what she does, and now you have found out it is a lie you expect me to control her and make her stop writing what she does. I thought husbands were not to be controlling of their wives? That is what I teach husbands. Control is not love. If Lori wants to submit or defer to my opinions she does it of her own free will, and can I be frank enough to say that she does not always do what I think is best, and I do not force her to do so.

No, some of you are just plain cyber bullies. You are so pro freedom, yet throw out freedom if it means you get your own way. You are so pro child and woman, but go ahead and trash and try o destroy a good husband because his wife has strong decisions she writes about on a blog for other Christian women.

Would it surprise you to know that Lori gets hit from both sides. You all, and some of the fundies. For the fundies we are terrible people because our skirts are too short, we dance and we drink wine. We think we are in a good spot between evil will always hate what is good and the Pharisees with their wooden rules.

If you would spend a little more time reading all of what Lori says in a post without your hair standing on end the first line, you may find she actually is not far off the heart of most of these issues. She simply doesn't go on to add all the flowery buy backs that you all are looking for.

The post on weight was specifically targeted to young women who are overweight, can do something about it and are pining for a man without preparing themselves for him. Sure we all get a bit fatter as we age, some of us develop evil eyes and become ugly like me I guess, but our spouses still see us for more than the outside appearance. But please! Do you really think that a young man looking for a spouse is looking at you as his ideal mate! He is not looking for 10 lbs overweight and out of shape. Case closed… Lori is right again, and you should be trying to stay in shape for yourself, your God and your husband. That si all Lori asked for… get in shape, and if your best shape is 145 lbs … so be it.

Lori may speak as if she is presenting one possible truth, but she does so as a teaching tool. Who wants to read someone who has no conclusions or has not studied her Bible? If you have a different Biblical perspective tell her about it in the comments section, but “you idiot your wrong†is not a thoughtful comment. Lori leaves anyone’s comment up that deals with the subject in a thoughtful and Biblical way so that others can learn and think for themselves.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Ken, how can you and your wife condone SSMs foul blog, which advocates decriminalizing violence and rake against women and taking away their right to work and vote? Do you really think that's a Christian blog and a person your wife should hold up as an example of a godly woman?

[Ken]

"If it affects your business, again the onus is on her to stop publishing information for the public to consume. Do you believe it is everyone else's job to simply never discuss what they read on the internet? Do you believe your wife and by extension you should be afforded a privacy that she is not asking for simply because there are people who disagree with her? That, my friend, is crazy."

No what I ask for is "common decency" nothing more and nothing less. Go back through the stuff you all write and what you are at times trying to do and it makes me puke. Sorry. You act so "holier than thou" and "the ends justify the means" yet you have forgotten that we live in a free society that I am my boys would die to protect your right to free speech. But when you abuse your right but not dialogue with rational thought, but instead stoop to the gutter because you simply disagree with a blog, that my friends is not the American way... although it is fast becoming that way. It is sad to watch our society with its media just try to drown out any contrary opinions that you disagree with. It is not right, and it is long term harmful for our country. Get a grip and deal with the facts, not a make believe husband of a writer who somehow becomes a perve, is abusive and controlling, beats his wife and kids, and thinks women are beneath him. All made up.

So far from the truth ... but you all spew it enough times you start to actually believe it. A new person to the forum picks up on it, hates my evil eyes already and everything about me just from your make believe world of repetitious hate... yet you throw stones at Lori. You have to get the humor in this. I am smiling at the hypocrisy.

Someone asked how do I make it in the dental world with 80% women! I will tell you how i make it. I treat them very much like I treat my wife, with care, concern, honor, respect, and believe them to be my equals in every way. The Bible does not tell women to be submissive to "men." It tells wives to be submissive to the "own" husbands, one man who they say they love the most ion this whole world. And even then it does not tell me to make my wife submissive. This she does, or does not do of her own free will.

So I get along great with women and do all I can to elevate all people around me in life and treat them as more important than myself. That includes my wife who actually has become a terrific submissive wife the last 13 years, and before that she wanted to be in control. I am sorry, but I am a good guy, but I don't like people wanting to control me with their strong personalities, so I was not very cooperative at times, but stuck it out, and what is my reward? Well slander and gossip from many of you, but a great marriage with Lori. We have a really great marriage... yup, doing it God's ways, both husband and wife. She submits and respects, and I love and sacrifice for her. Isn't that the way it should be? At least it is Biblical...

[Ken]

If you haven't noticed, Lori pulls from a wide variety of sources. I still ave not figured out SSM and I doubt that Lori spends a lot of time there, but sometimes her posts are spot on, others radical.

I think what some of you fail to understand is that a writer writes for a particular audience. SSM has an audience of mainly men fed up with feminism it seems. Lori too is fed up with feminism so that and the concept of wifely submission they cross over, but not completely. Lori pulls from thousands of sources as she truly is "Always Learning."

I get it, you want her to just use sources that are vanilla and not radical, you you belong to this blog????????????!!!!!! Weird thinking that you can belong to such a radical blog, but Lori is not allowed to quote from SSM?????

[NotALoserLikeYou]

This forum isn't really that radical, unless you think equality and opportunity for all people is some radical notion. Lori can pull from whomever she chooses but don't be shocked when a woman is offended she is pulling from a blogger who believes men should be able to rape their wives, and that blacks are not as intelligent as whites, and that laws that allow women to work and vote should be done away with.

When your wife's blog is focusing mainly on wives submitting at ALL COSTS, and corporal punishment, and being overweight and having long hair and never having a career - you can't be surprised people think it is a judgmental blog that doesn't really look like any sort of Christian outreach.

[Bookworm]

Hi Ken! I always like to see "snarkees" show up here. I grew up in a non-frumper but very conservative homeschool family and for a long time I was very, very proud of the beliefs I grew up with and the fact that my parents were involved in ministry to teach other families what the Biblical principles were. I still think there were many good things about my upbringing and I appreciate the way my parents tried hard to encourage all of us kids to chase our dreams. That said, there came a time when the cognitive dissonance between what everyone around me said about life and what I observed got too disturbing to ignore and I went through a crisis of belief and had to re-evaluate everything I ever believed. FJ was a big help to me through that, because sometimes just being able to laugh and realize how ridiculous something looked to other people made the idea less powerful.

I say all this because I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't really follow your wife's blog and I can imagine how disturbing it would be to find yourself smeared online. Fundamentalism encourages black and white thinking, naivete, and magical thinking. The many quotes I've seen from Lori's blog on here strike me as very dangerous - the Bible does say that teachers will be held to a higher standard, and the things she is teaching are not phrased in a careful way at all. My own parents believed advice from Gothard, Dobson, the Pearls that damaged us kids a LOT, because they didn't have the critical thinking skills of adults. They loved us a lot, but were not very discerning. There are a lot of people out there like that, and even worse, there are a lot of people who are looking for excuses to abuse their children.

For you, welcome to the board and I hope you stick around a bit. We have all kinds here and it can be a fun maelstrom! There is a lot of caring and concern here for those we snark on, particularly those we see as victims.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Ken, do you ever feel that Lori is being kinda passive aggressive about you on her blog? It seems to be a lot of her submission/marriage related stuff are things like "My husband never does this for me, and I put up with it even though I don't like it" instead of bringing it up with you like a rational person.

[Talitha Cumi]

My issue with Lori isn't just that she advocates her way as the only way. (Or, rather, "You are free to disagree with me, but I am only saying what comes from the Bible and anybody who does differently will go to Hell.") It's also that the advice she gives has the potential to cause lasting physical and psychological harm. Examples include:

-Telling a child abuse survivor to go against her gut feelings and keep beating her children.

-Saying there is no good reason to get vaccines and other forms of Western medicine, while also advocating quack remedies like Black Salve that are more harmful than the original condition.

-Pointing to a story about children abusing a dog as a good example of how a wife should react with meekness to a husband's anger.

[lilith]

Ken, did you it did you not hit your toddlers with a leather strap?

[Full enough quiver]

I try not to snark on appearances, because I wouldn't like it if other people did it to me. I actually don't see anything wrong with the way Ken looks. I actually think he's fairly good looking.

As for not liking feminism; I think there's a lot of misinformation out there about feminism. All feminism is, is the belief that men and women are equal, and deserve equal protection under the law. From what you've described of your relationships with women, that sounds like what you believe. It does not mean that women are better than men, or that men are wrong or bad. It does not mean that women can't stay home with their children, or submit to their husbands. It just means that women have the same choices and opportunities that men do.

You say you are a nice guy, and you don't abuse lori. Thats good. My husband doesnt abuse me either, so i am free to choose to submit to him. Not all women are lucky enough to marry men who treat them with love and respect. Before feminism, a man could treat his wife however he pleased, and she had no choice but to put up with it. That isn't right. There are some people out there who believe that women are better than men. This is not feminism, it's misandry, and it is wrong. Just as many people can call themselves Christians, and then behave in unchristlike ways, someone can call themselves a feminist, and behave in inappropriate ways. Anything can become a toxic belief if it is taken to far. I resent all feminists being lumped together, based on the actions of some, just as you would resent all Christians being called a hate group because of the actions of the Westborough Baptist church.

[Koala]

Sitting on the fireplace steps was our most effective discipline tool which was used often, but defiance in a child met with a swat.

If what you say is true, would you mind explaining the direct contradiction found in Lori's blog entry from Jan. 14, 2014?

We didn't have to resort to charts, bedtime routines, stickers, or time outs. We spanked them if they didn't obey us!

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2014/01/parenting-exhausting-way.html

Unfortunately for Lori, her delete finger does not extend to Free Jinger, so while you can ignore this blatant discrepancy, it will not disappear.

[Koala]

As a side note, while there are many questions I would like to ask Lori, I refuse to address them directly with Ken unless he is quoted as well. Lori seems to have a habit of striking out and then rushing behind Ken. I get that he is here to address us, but I refuse to interact with him as if he speaks for Lori.

[Ken]

("Well said. Ken, why does Lori have to "train younger women to love their husband and be keepers at home?")

The Bible says, "Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed."

I would say that Lori as a 55 year old grandma is an older Christian woman who is teaching the younger Christian women all of these things. You will note the areas she is to teach and that is why she spends so much time on these subjects. Note especially love their husbands, keepers at home, and submissive to their own husbands... the KJV says obedient to their own husbands.

Lori sees this as her calling and does not intend for her blog to be accepted as the gospel truth by all women... just the younger women that she is training.

She speaks from her heart and from the Word of God, and perhaps I have learned something from you all today tat may help, that no matter how true a quote may be that she uses, she should not be using a quote if it comes from a man who is advocating things that are so highly objectionable and offensive.

Remember, Lori is relatively new at blogging, ad has never taken a blogging 101 course on writing about such subject matter. Her popularity has risen quickly, so she assumes she is on the right track with what she is writing, but she can learn and grow... so perhaps some of you foul language and the kind hearted here can help me see what you ate seeing and over time her posts can be more effective and less offensive. She certainly is not trying to offend, but she has a prophetic gift... and I get to be married to this wonderful woman! It is like anything in life and relationships. If I am always looking for what is wrong in someone I can rarely see what is right. There is so much right in Lori and she is a wonderful person with so much to offer me, and others. She would be the first to tell she is not perfect and just trying to figure it all out as to how to fulfill her calling to "train the younger women." She is biased as she sees through glasses of what she considers to be 22 years of wasted time in our marriage wishing that she had had an older women talk to her frankly like she is doing to get her on track with her most terrific husband a lot sooner.

As for the issue of passive aggressive towards me, I know you all see that in many of her posts, and I think it is because of her desire for brevity that she does not fill in the pieces that those who appreciate her already can fill in. No, Ken does not do this and that for Lori... BUT Ken does so many other wonderful things for Lori as I serve her with my whole life. For Lori missing Valentine's Day celebration has no comparison to what I do for her daily with back, shoulder and neck massages, walks hand in hand around the park, eating her big salads to stay healthy because she loves that. I do the things Lori loves, and not all of them... I mean I am still a man so I cannot figure out all she wants unless she tells me and then most of the time I try to do it. And I am the more romantic of the two, but we both will not let our expectations get in the way of or love and marriage. That was her message in case you missed because your could not get past the first line.

I am just curious, but would you rather have your husband do a bunch of little things for you or work 55 hours a week and support a whole bundle of people up and down the food chain... and still do all the important things you want from him? Non excuses, I could be better at giving cards and other things perhaps, but find one big thing in my life and marriage I am missing... and it would be solved in an instant. I am 1000% committed to personal, professional and marriage growth. And all of that comes from awareness and replacing lies with the truth. If yo have truth to speak... I am all ears.

[lilith]

What do you mean by saying Lori has a prophetic gift?

[SquirrelySquirrel]

As a side note, while there are many questions I would like to ask Lori, I refuse to address them directly with Ken unless he is quoted as well. Lori seems to have a habit of striking out and then rushing behind Ken. I get that he is here to address us, but I refuse to interact with him as if he speaks for Lori.

Ditto that. Not to mention, I'm not even remotely convinced that this is Ken. If it is, he has some gall to call us hypocrites. Dude is whitewashing everything he's ever said on Lori's blog, or outright lying. (see above post re: spanking vs. time outs) One cannot act as though he believes men and women are equal while also hailing the likes of Cabinet Man as a farking hero. Pass the barf bag, please.

Lori, Lori, come out and play!

[Koala]

DD is highly objectionable to Lori and so funny to see some of you pick up on her joke to SSM. ken

I assume you are referring to this comment your wife made on Sunshine Mary's blog:

Lori said:

I loved the first one! I don’t think he is a believer, but I think most men long for days when women acted like women and loved all the aspects of home life. I enjoyed your post yesterday. My husband and I got a good laugh over it. He told me he would have given me 2 choices…a good spanking or no dishwasher. I told him I would take the spanking any day! {I think most children would prefer a good spanking to time out, being grounded, etc. It is over so much quicker and I think pain is a great teacher.}

Lori refers to pain being a great teacher often. In this comment she directly links you with presenting an option of a spanking or no dishwasher. Is this fabricated? Did you say that to her or did she make it up?

Question: Did you or did you not make the following comment on Lori's blog:

"Lori would be clear that no physical pain should be tolerated unless it is truly by voluntary consent, and she is not an advocate for domestic discipline. "

Are you implying that it is okay for a man to inflict pain on his wife if she consents, or just implying that that is what Lori believes?

Again, I will only address things that:

A. Are said directly by you

B. You and Lori are contradicting one another on

Lori can speak for herself on the rest.

[Koala]

Ditto that. Not to mention, I'm not even remotely convinced that this is Ken. If it is, he has some gall to call us hypocrites. Dude is whitewashing everything he's ever said on Lori's blog, or outright lying. (see above post re: spanking vs. time outs) One cannot act as though he believes men and women are equal while also hailing the likes of Cabinet Man as a farking hero. Pass the barf bag, please.

Lori, Lori, come out and play!

His attitude is condescending at best, remarking how we must be up early to have so many questions :roll: Like he didn't just waltz in here and post a giant wall of text practically begging a response.

I am noticing that all of his responses tend to be giant, emotional walls of text....when asked an outright question he ignores it. I wish I had more time this afternoon and I'd sit here use his own quotes to contradict him. *sigh*

[SquirrelySquirrel]

I wish I had more time this afternoon and I'd sit here use his own quotes to contradict him. *sigh*

It's not worth it. As you said, he'll ignore it or brush over it with another tl;dr reply, making sure to pat himself on the back for what a wonderful, caring, loving husband he is, all the while not-so-subtly throwing his wife under the bus.

[Ken]

"If what you say is true, would you mind explaining the direct contradiction found in Lori's blog entry from Jan. 14, 2014?"

That was 20 years ago and it is possible that Lori and I have two different recollections and maybe two different ways of dealing with the issues with our children. I seem to have a way of perhaps over looking more than Mom could, and just telling my child stop it or go to the fireplace and they ran off to the fireplace. I worked, Lori was a keeper at home and in spite of her illnesses was a great Mom and keeper.

My sense was that when I got home , or was downstairs and not in my office, that Lori would defer to me to do all the discipline, which was rarely necessary... but she had spent perhaps 8-9 hours with the kids so maybe there was lots more going on than I was aware of. To be honest, I do not remember much need to discipline much at all once moving from LA to San Diego. The kids were basically trained with Alyssa being the toughest and once she was trained by 5, Ran was easy, Steven was a bit stronger but easy, and Cassi barely got a lick and didn't need it. It is the string willed child that will get the spankings.

Yes, a strap... I know this just kills you to think we could use the strap, and it stung, but it was far from abuse or brutality. One or two well placed modest swats and the sting was enough to get the child's attention and obedience. I think using one's hand is not ideal... but that is a long story.

If you hate the idea of strap, so be it... but why would you tell me how I am to raise my children, especially now that the proof is in and we have four outstanding citizens who all love Jesus and are highly successful at life and marriage? Could we have gotten the same without the strap... I say very possibly, and Lori would say no. She did most of the child raising and did a fabulous job, but you want me to question her approach? No way... it was too easy and efficient. You go sit at the top of the stairs and wait for your child to get out of bed each night because they do not believe that your "no" means "no." Ridiculous what we see parents doing because they do not want to spank. It is miserable for them and miserable for the child.

You say you had no problems raising good kids without spanking... great! But now talk to me about the millions of parents who do not have such success and are ruining the school system for the ones who are well behaved. Ask the teachers out there and even the most liberal of them would say, "Some of these kids should be spanked" and now it is too late.

Discipline of a child should be "the minimum correction necessary to obtain LONG TERM results." The sting of a strap may seem too excessive for child, but when one looks at how easily a child learns obedience it is well worth it. Lori watches young Mom's get worn out with nothing much left to offer their husbands when they get home because they battle the kids all day long and again at night. Children should be a pleasure to parents and if you can get your children to be a pleasure and cooperative at a young age without spanking... that is fantastic! We did not even consider it because both Lori and I were spanked, we think nothing of the spankings but good things came of them. AND it is the way the world functioned for thousands of years. You all act like this is new stuff when it is as old and the very first child most likely. You cannot communicate effectively with a young child, but pain and pleasure are great communicators when words are not available.

Lori is not getting on here and talking to you Koala, so I am the best conduit you have. Your choice.