Lori Alexander: Valentine's Day Causes Divorce

[lawfulevil]

Nothing says "ideal marriage" like one exhausted partner tolerating sex because they feel they're religiously obligated.

Thanks, but I'll stick to having sex when BOTH partners are (enthusiastically, unquestionably, completely) into it.

And I'll eat whatever I damn well please.

[SquirrelySquirrel]

Ugh, I feel physically sick. Those poor, poor children with fucked up, abusive parents. Hit 'em harder! How can you stomach seeing your wife give that kind of advice, Ken? I'm so done with this thread. This is why I ignore at least half of the Lori threads. I cannot fathom hitting someone, anyone, save in self-defense. My child is the most precious thing on this Earth, which is as it should be for parents. My job is to teach her, guide her, love her, cherish her, and raise her to know how to make the right decisions (And to know that she will make the wrong ones from time to time, and that's okay too. That's how we learn). I'm not perfect and I do have to constantly stay on myself not to yell when I'm frustrated, but damn. She's not afraid of me. I'd know I failed if she was, and I'd work like mad to correct it.

[Koala]

Back to the topic of weight. Here is another comment by Lori on her daughters' weight:

Lori:

I know it was hard for our girls if we ever brought it up to them but isn't it hard when anyone brings up any issue in your life that may be a bad habit or sin?

Isn't that funny how when she was writing those posts advising parents to confront their children about their weight she remained silent about the fact that her very own child struggled with a poor body image? Please understand that I am not suggesting she should have put that info out there, but rather that she presented herself as someone who had successfully used her own advice, when in fact her child struggled greatly at a young age.

I had not even hit puberty and I was worried that I was too curvy or not skinny enough.

It is also of note that Lori never refers to confronting their sons about their weight, but in both posts she singles out her daughters.

[Ken]

Where do I even begin.

Yes, I hunt and peck about 60 words a minute with lots of typos and then I have to go back a reread and try to make corrections… so some of you are killing me. How am I able to spend so much time with my new friends? I am not, my work is piling up, but this is so much fun. Especially being in the same room with RosyDaisy. She brightens up my day and gives me hope for tomorrow. I am the eternal optimist like the kid in the barn shoveling manure. His Dad came in and said, “Hey, what is it with all the piles of manure?†And the kid answered, “With all this manure in here there must be a pony somewhere! I am sure with a name like Rosy, there must be a rose amongst all those thorns.

[Ken]

Selex: You wrote a good book, and I read every word. I think it is great what you have in your marriage with your husband. I am not opposed to a egalitarian marriage, so long as husband and wife want it that way. I believe that a Christian marriage goes beyond being egalitarian if it is done right. No husband should be controlling of their spouse, but that does not mean that a husband at times should NEVER use control to protect his wife, or seek her best interest. If she is hanging out with the wrong crowd of friends smoking pot or at the bars he can and should say to her, “I do not want you hanging out with those friends again.†She says, “I will hang out with who I want,†And the next thing you know he announces they are moving to another city. This is control, and loving control, and she now has the choice to follow or not. BUT, to make this a habit or to be controlling for selfish purposes is not acceptable for a Christian husband or wife, or any spouse.

Yes, you and your husband are both ultra go-getters. Here is my take as I read about your terrific marriage. What would their marriage look like if she had 4 kids and was as stay at home Mom? Would she still expect he does equal housework? How about choices on spending money? Would she defer more to his wishes if he was the primary wage earner, and would he defer to her wishes on her home ground the home and the kids? You never had to separate out roles because you two do the same thing. Much easier to identify the roles in the relationship… all can be egalitarian. BUT when it comes to two separate roles in marriage, now things are not so clear cut as to who decides what and how. So God suggests a way…

Hey, the vitamins were not just for her and her health. I spent a small country’s GDP each year on Lori’s health, and I hate the idea of Obama Care… sorry and we are not in it. But the whole family had to take lots of vitamins, and eat all organic… and I wanted to buy a bigger house some day and maybe even retire. Isn’t that what many men are thinking? We disagreed on lots of things because we came from two different backgrounds. My Mom was smart, talented and a great submissive wife who was a master at raising five kids and keeping a husband happy AND teaching women’s Bible Studies and conferences. Lori is an MD’s daughter who went to bed at night listening to Mom and dad argue. I had no clue what I was in store for me because in our home we all just got along and did what Dad or Mom said, and her Dad and Mom could not agree on much. I am pleased to report that due to Lori’s ministry they are now happy married some 63 years and in love. They rarely fight, but it still is known to happen over food and money.

I often use difficult women or difficult man, but strong headed works for both. It is sad to have you say that a divorce is an option for you after all your husband has given to the marriage all these years. It is selfish of a person to conveniently discard the person they vowed was to be their lover and friend for life, just because…. maybe we don’t get along as well… or maybe a cuter pretty girl or guy came along. What kind of moral fiber is that if we cannot give our word and keep it all of our lives? A disposable society coming right up… one spouse always gets burned and hurt.

And that leads to my last comment. Sure your marriage works but 50% are failing. Why blame Lori for teaching CHRISTIAN women what the BIBLE says about love, marriage and raising kids????? If you are not a Christian, don’t follow her advice or the Bible’s. If you are a Christian, use your noggin and think for yourself and discover what part, parts or whole of Lori’s message is what God desires for your life.

[Koala]

Where do I even begin.

How am I able to spend so much time with my new friends? I am not, my work is piling up, but this is so much fun.

You are deranged if you think that

A. We are your friends :cray-cray:

B. This is fun :evil-eye:

[Ken]

2xx1xy1JD:

1) No our biggest arguments were not about vegies… they were ultimately about whose will will prevail… it is about control. Why is it that ALL of my college buddies who got married thought that their wives were controlling and somewhat difficult… rationed sex like it was only for good days, and insisted on all of us doing things there way, or we paid the price? My best friend never married and if you asked him why he would say, “Who wants to get married and have your life controlled?â€

So I know you all here would never do that with your husbands, ad your husbands have never felt under the control of your demands or moods… well welcome to the real world where we see it ALL the time. I just had an email from one of your FJ people telling me she snuck off and started reading Lori’s blog some many months ago and does not agree with everything she writes, but her marriage is so much better. She went on to tell me about yesterday when her husband brought home the wrong groceries and her instinct was to call him out on it, instead of thanking him for doing the shopping. She caught herself thinking WWLD, and sure enough she thanked him and had a great evening with him.

This is some of the basic things Lori teaches. You hate it… but it is a necessary message for many many women and Lori has hundreds of success stories like this one. No it is not rocket science, but if you don’t know how to treat your man properly, you can’t do it. Lori’s blog is about selfless giving to your husband. Is that so bad? I like it and it works great for us. And yes, no man should take advantage of a wife who is giving to him selflessly, but should beat her to it, by sacrificially living for her. Voila! A perfect Christian marriage. Lori calls on women everywhere to try it… the worst case it fails, and the best it succeeds. She makes it clear that physical abuse is never to be tolerated without seeking help or the authorities, but she leaves open to women what to do when married to a difficult man. Separation is an option for a Christian spouse.

2) No… Lori gets what she wants for her health. But did she heed to buy two new couches the month after we move into a new house? Remember, poor missionary kid marries MD’s daughter ïŠ. We both had some growing up to do.

3) Yes, went to the Christian psychologist and pastor. Hey, do you al not know that 50% of marriages end in divorce? Do you think we are the only ones with problems. I may need to drink your cool aid here because everyone here is so perfect, especially Koala Bear and all you guys with perfect and wonderful marriages. Well I have a perfectly wonderful marriage now too… and so do a few hundred others because of what Lori is teaching. Apply it and it works… and no the promise to win your man says MAY it is not WILL…. If I remember the verse. So it is not a universal promise, but it is the first step to trying to have a great marriage.

4) Travel half the time for only a few years, then 10 days a month since… I am a 24 hour a day stay at home Dad the other 20 days of each month :0. Got to many of te kids games and ballet… I have a great job where I have no one to blame for my success or failure but me… and there are lots of hours after 5 p.m. and before 8 a.m. to work. Just ask selex.

5) Was I selfish with my time at times… yep. I was a pretty imperfect guy… so you got me. It was not all Lori’s fault. I had to figure out the baggage I brought into the marriage, and the selfishness and grow up to learn to love my wife more and better. Why do you think she changed? I was working very hard on me, because I could not change her. But Basketball and sex…. They are/were pretty sacred to me. Can I give up Sunday School instead? How about being an elder in the church? How about just work 10 hours a week less… but then how can I buy her a house. It’s complicated when you are young, married with four kids under 7 and trying to get to the top of your profession. Where is my necessary outlet if it is not basketball? Need to stay in shape or I am sure Lori will talk to me about my weight ïŠ. And rightfully so!

Remember, we were all confused as to what Lori was going through because she was misdiagnosed by 28 different doctors in five years. Then one ordered a stool test and found the problem… low HCL which made it so she caught every bug available… then the car accident sandwiched between two semi’s and a broken or cracked neck. This is not in today’s world of modern medicine… this is 25 years ago… and you ask if I knew what was going on…. !!! Yes, I was downstairs watching the kids as she writhed in pain in her bed. What were we to do when her MD Dad got her to all the great specialists in NY and LA yet no one could find the problem. Lori is a saint on earth for what she has been through… and God carried her through it all.

[Ken]

I thought this was a Snark forum Koala... Snark a bit and stop being so nasty... you and RosyDaisy. Lori and I are not the end all and be all of your hate. Your hatred goes far before you ever heard of us and will continue long after. Maybe some day you can explain to us what pain you have that propels your anger. Good night...

[Koala]

I thought this was a Snark forum Koala... Snark a bit and stop being so nasty... you and RosyDaisy. Lori and I are not the end all and be all of your hate. Your hatred goes far before you ever heard of us and will continue long after. Maybe some day you can explain to us what pain you have that propels your anger. Good night...

:D I will take this as a concession. You are unable to address the discrepancies I have pointed out so HATE!!! ANGER!!! :roll: If quoting you/your wife seems nasty to you then perhaps you should be more careful what you say online.

Finally, I am not your wife and this is not your forum. I don't need your advice on what to do here. If you want someone to boss about, then I'd suggest you hop back over to Lori's blog because that shit isn't going to fly here.

[lawfulevil]

For a guy who types 60 wpm, you just typed a wall of text... and yet you didn't reply to me.

Health: There is absolutely no way to be certain. My father's friend, a 5'11 170 pound lifelong runner who took every supplement you can imagine and watched his diet religiously, who had never even been to McDonald's, died at 58 of a heart attack. I had a triathlete friend in high school die of a heart condition as well, she was extremely fit and just 17. Other friends with healthy BMIs and eating habits have gotten all kinds of cancers. Often, these illnesses bankrupted their families. Bad things happen, even to thin people who eat organic food. My great-grandfather was a very slender and athletic doctor (and Army Captain) who served in WWII, but he died of a chronic gastrointestinal illness he contracted on the front while my grandmother was still a child.

I hope you never have reason to sing a different tune, but I suspect that someday you will. And God help me if you won't be just as self-righteous about your position then.

4 kids: you say that like it's an enormous amount of offspring. It's a pretty "so what" amount around here.

Successful adults, abused children: My parents beat the shit out of me as a child, I am a successful adult. I assure you that these facts are completely unrelated.

Sex: You were watching her "writhe in pain" and demanding she satisfy your boner anyway....???? What is WRONG with you?

[Ken]

I feared my father growing up, had huge respect and love for him, and the fear Lori is referring to is a healthy fear of obedience. I fear the policeman with a radar gun when I am driving so I am a more careful driver. I fear the the IRS so I pay my taxes as required. I feared my teachers in the classroom if I acted out.

Get a context .... anyone can play your game and go into 1500 very brief articles and pick at what doesn't sound right even if the point of post is accurate. Then anyone can ask the question "Why didn't she say this, or add that... etc." Do you see how brief Lori writes with her style. She is not writing to do much more than to make a main point or two, not to write a book about all subjects.

[Ken]

You are deranged if you think that

A. We are your friends :cray-cray:

B. This is fun :evil-eye:

This is the comment that I was replying to , not your endless pick and choose without context or understanding. Words like "fear" can mean many things... Our kids feared only when they got in trouble, and that was not very often... and much of there fear was a fear to disappoint.

[Ken]

:D I will take this as a concession. You are unable to address the discrepancies I have pointed out so HATE!!! ANGER!!! :roll: If quoting you/your wife seems nasty to you then perhaps you should be more careful what you say online.

Finally, I am not your wife and this is not your forum. I don't need your advice on what to do here. If you want someone to boss about, then I'd suggest you hop back over to Lori's blog because that shit isn't going to fly here.

No you could not be my wife.... for many reasons. One is that I have a great one already.

[Ken]

For a guy who types 60 wpm, you just typed a wall of text... and yet you didn't reply to me.

Health: There is absolutely no way to be certain. My father's friend, a 5'11 170 pound lifelong runner who took every supplement you can imagine and watched his diet religiously, who had never even been to McDonald's, died at 58 of a heart attack. I had a triathlete friend in high school die of a heart condition as well, she was extremely fit and just 17. Other friends with healthy BMIs and eating habits have gotten all kinds of cancers. Often, these illnesses bankrupted their families. Bad things happen, even to thin people who eat organic food. My great-grandfather was a very slender and athletic doctor (and Army Captain) who served in WWII, but he died of a chronic gastrointestinal illness he contracted on the front while my grandmother was still a child.

I hope you never have reason to sing a different tune, but I suspect that someday you will. And God help me if you won't be just as self-righteous about your position then.

4 kids: you say that like it's an enormous amount of offspring. It's a pretty "so what" amount around here.

Successful adults, abused children: My parents beat the shit out of me as a child, I am a successful adult. I assure you that these facts are completely unrelated.

Sex: You were watching her "writhe in pain" and demanding she satisfy your boner anyway....???? What is WRONG with you?

Context... We are not having sex while she is writhing in pain... the pain came and went... good days bad days.. god hours bad hours. We made love during the best of the hours on her timing and schedule, not mine. What is WRONG with you???? thinking that I am making love when she is writhing in pain. Although you do understand that Oxytocin is a most powerful pain killer .... right?

Did you have a previous question? If so I missed it. Remember I type fast, but proofread slow.

In our circumstances 4 kids was a lot but all were quite welcome. People die for many reasons. Some eat perfectly and are in great shape and die young... others seem not to care about what they eat and genetics carries them to a ripe old age. Sensible eating is to eat some fruits and vegies ever day... science and health are proving this... and stay in shape.. but there are no guarantees. Life happens... so does disease and death.

What is wrong with you people who can color everything at its worst... instead of looking that it actually might be the best, but your minds can't go there because of your predisposed biases?

[Angharad Crewe]

For a guy who types 60 wpm, you just typed a wall of text... and yet you didn't reply to me.

Health: There is absolutely no way to be certain. My father's friend, a 5'11 170 pound lifelong runner who took every supplement you can imagine and watched his diet religiously, who had never even been to McDonald's, died at 58 of a heart attack. I had a triathlete friend in high school die of a heart condition as well, she was extremely fit and just 17. Other friends with healthy BMIs and eating habits have gotten all kinds of cancers. Often, these illnesses bankrupted their families. Bad things happen, even to thin people who eat organic food. My great-grandfather was a very slender and athletic doctor (and Army Captain) who served in WWII, but he died of a chronic gastrointestinal illness he contracted on the front while my grandmother was still a child.

I hope you never have reason to sing a different tune, but I suspect that someday you will. And God help me if you won't be just as self-righteous about your position then.

4 kids: you say that like it's an enormous amount of offspring. It's a pretty "so what" amount around here.

Successful adults, abused children: My parents beat the shit out of me as a child, I am a successful adult. I assure you that these facts are completely unrelated.

Sex: You were watching her "writhe in pain" and demanding she satisfy your boner anyway....???? What is WRONG with you?

Off topic, but on the issue of marathoners and being healthy it has anecdotally been shown that endurance sports can have a very negative impact on health, especially the heart. It's possible that excessive exercise may have exacerbated heart conditions that otherwise would have remained benign in your friend and friend's father.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 0442565788

On topic: I actually think Ken - if it is truly Ken - is one of the more reasonable and moderate bloggers who has come to visit this forum. I'm definitely in the camp against spanking and forcing women to submit, but from what Ken has posted it doesn't seem like either their parenting or their marriage is that much out of the norm. Maybe I just haven't read through the thread carefully enough though...

[lilith]

Ken, Lori may have helped some, even many couples. I don't know. But the advice she gives has potential to do great harm, especially when a husband is abusive, controlling and isolating. That's the issue here. Lori has no qualifications in either biblical or secular counselling and she is promoting radical advice that could be very damaging as THE ONLY RIGHT WAY (excuse caps, not yelling, just don't have access to italics on my iPad).

The child rearing advice..... Well I see it as inherently dangerous, but you obviously don't agree. But even if you believe that corporal punishment is acceptable, Lori's advice is narrow and dangerous. She doesn't consider nuance, she doesn't consider different children and different circumstances, she just says that the only way to effectively discipline any child is to hit, and that if that's not working then it must be cause you don't hit hard enough.

My kids fear letting me down to, and fear the consequences of misbehaviour. But they don't fear that I'll beat them - they feel physically safe in my presence and know that their bodily autonomy will be respected. That's really important to me - I want them to know that nobody ever has the right to touch them in any way that they don't like or want, and that includes Mum.

I don't think anyone here is trying to stop Lori publishing her blog, although I'm sure there are some who would be happy if she did. People are simply commenting on publicly published material.

If Lori really has been receiving profane, nasty and trolling comments, I very much doubt they are from active FJ participants. You seem to have read here enough to realise that that's not the style that's encouraged or practiced here. But if you're interpreting disagreement as trolling, then yes, FJ members post their comments in a comments section of a public blog, expressing their opinions. It's the way blogs are meant to work. It's sad that Lori refuses to publish reasonable and polite comments that disagree with her. You say her views aren't as radical as we perceive them to be here - if that's true, then engaging in intelligent debate with women of diverse opinions would help her articulate that. If she is always learning she should know that everyone has something they can teach.

[Micah]

I'm not scrolling back up to quote, but the husband who brings home the wrong groceries and his wife doesn't call him on it, WTF? If my fiance went shopping and brought back a whole lot of stuff we couldn't/wouldn't use, you can be damn sure I'll call him on it! We don't have the money for that sort of shennanigans! I guarantee that if fiance handled the finances we'd lose our house, he is not responsible with money in any way. A fact he himselft acknowledges. So I do it.....all of it. What say you to that, Ken? He asks me before he buys anything and he's the main bread winner. He has a tendency to impulse buy and not just little things. So should I be submissive and hand over the reins to the bank account? If I did that and we lost our dream home I should just smile demurely? Fuck that!

I think the thing that's really bugging me about your beliefs, Ken, Is that under all your claims that you have a great marriage and everything is really equal in the end, I get the definite impression that you consider women (and children) to be lesser. It's still "the wife shouldn't tell the husband the groceries are wrong," "The woman has to be the one to sit down and ask her husband if he thinks she's bossy or hard headed." Never once have you written or replied that the MAN should be the one to take a good, long look at himself.

Just because my genitals are one the inside does NOT mean that I am soley responsible for the success or failure of my relationship. If I fuck up, I want my fiance to call me on it. Equally, if he fucks up damn straight is he going to know about it! I hate patriarchy and fundamentalism. It sucks on every level....unless you're born with a penis, then everything's sweet.

[salex]

]Selex: You wrote a good book, and I read every word. I think it is great what you have in your marriage with your husband. I am not opposed to a egalitarian marriage, so long as husband and wife want it that way. I believe that a Christian marriage goes beyond being egalitarian if it is done right. No husband should be controlling of their spouse, but that does not mean that a husband at times should NEVER use control to protect his wife, or seek her best interest. If she is hanging out with the wrong crowd of friends smoking pot or at the bars he can and should say to her, “I do not want you hanging out with those friends again.†She says, “I will hang out with who I want,†And the next thing you know he announces they are moving to another city. This is control, and loving control, and she now has the choice to follow or not. BUT, to make this a habit or to be controlling for selfish purposes is not acceptable for a Christian husband or wife, or any spouse

.

That seems like a strange scenario, because where will they move that there won't be pot or a bar or "those kinds of friends"? If she has a problem with booze, or is looking for something or someone outside the house, moving won't "fix" that, will it? Wouldn't it make more sense to figure out why she is seeking solace or thrills before moving to the same problem in a new city--also, what is the wife's recourse if it is the husband doing these things? just pray and be more submissive? Cross her fingers?

Yes, you and your husband are both ultra go-getters. Here is my take as I read about your terrific marriage.

What would their marriage look like if she had 4 kids and was as stay at home Mom?

I will say there is no way in a million years I'd have 4 kids short of either quadruplets on a first pregnancy or triplets on a second, at which point I'd be crying in the corner begging someone to help me... :) It is not remotely anything I'd want or do purposely--ever." Additionally, I spent the time in school and developing my skills before working for the company so I could freelance, and I had several clients before I gave them up. The baby plan would have been a nanny or au pair to be with the child(ren) (up to 2) while I worked from home or in and out of the house.

Would she still expect he does equal housework?

I thought I covered that in the novel --we don't keep timesheets on the housework now but whoever has the heaviest week ends up doing less. When I work fewer hours, or he's out of town, or I'm not in school or working-- I took on more / all of it. When I'm out of town, he did more. And the reason is the same as why we had a maid for a small apartment when we were in our 20s and working all the time. We like to have fun when we are together.

How about choices on spending money?

No change. When I quit earning to go back to school, I was very uncomfortable writing checks for groceries, etc at first, since I wasn't earning. I mentioned this and he reassured me that things were not different, it was still our money. I have long managed the books at home, so he would not likely want to change that, or our basic budgeting/spending/saving plan.

Would she defer more to his wishes if he was the primary wage earner,

What wishes? We don't place some sliding scale of value or power on each other within our marriage based on how much we earn in a certain time frame. He has nearly always made more money than I in a year, sometimes quite a lot, but as I said-- we have always had a joint account. The agreements we have on spending would work as well with one earner as with two.

and would he defer to her wishes on her home ground the home and the kids

? Again, what wishes? I have no idea. I suppose a sahm might know the kids better than the father, but wouldn't that just allow her to give him a heads up on what stage of development a particular kid was, not suddenly make her more powerful in the relationship?

You never had to separate out roles because you two do the same thing. Much easier to identify the roles in the relationship… all can be egalitarian. BUT when it comes to two separate roles in marriage, now things are not so clear cut as to who decides what and how. So God suggests a way…

Being egalitarian is far more than who does housework-- and my examples may have led in the wrong direction if that is what you thought being egalitarian meant. It means that in my eyes, and in my husband's eyes, we are equals in the marriage and in life. If I wash every dish in the house, never earn a penny and he never cooks an egg and pays for everything-- as husband and wife, we are equals in our relationship, as humans and in the value of our opinion and we believe, in God's eyes. I know, in our society, money buys status and power. But in our [marriage, money does not buy status, one partner over the other. We are the people we are. A temporary or permanent change in task list does not make us different people.

Hey, the vitamins were not just for her and her health.

OK, but it was a legitimate question.

I spent a small country’s GDP each year on Lori’s health, and I hate the idea of Obama Care… sorry and we are not in it.

But the whole family had to take lots of vitamins, and eat all organic… and I wanted to buy a bigger house some day and maybe even retire. Isn’t that what many men are thinking?

Possibly-- I know men who want bigger houses, I know men who want to move to some hut in south America. Men are not a generic group.

We disagreed on lots of things because we came from two different backgrounds. My Mom was smart, talented and a great submissive wife who was a master at raising five kids and keeping a husband happy AND teaching women’s Bible Studies and conferences. Lori is an MD’s daughter who went to bed at night listening to Mom and dad argue. I had no clue what I was in store for me because in our home we all just got along and did what Dad or Mom said, and her Dad and Mom could not agree on much. I am pleased to report that due to Lori’s ministry they are now happy married some 63 years and in love. They rarely fight, but it still is known to happen over food and money

.

So, the fact that is what she fights about those topics is not a surprise!!

I often use difficult women or difficult man, but strong headed works for both. It is sad to have you say that a divorce is an option for you after all your husband has given to the marriage all these years.

Clearly you missed my point. I was saying that we were together because we want to be--not because I am trapped by economics or outside pressure or demands of my church. I see that as better than a marriage that one or both partners feel they have no choice but to stay no matter what. I think it is interesting that you read it that way and that you suggested my husband had given so much to the marriage (apparently beyond the call of duty??)

It is selfish of a person to conveniently discard the person they vowed was to be their lover and friend for life, just because…. maybe we don’t get along as well… or maybe a cuter pretty girl or guy came along.

Or, maybe their spouse gave them one too many STDs, or moved in with their girlfriend or boyfriend, or beat the crap out of them or as one friend of mine, treated her ok, but was abusive of their kids-- life is much more complex than "people got tired of each other"

I personally think that the fundie (you may include yourself or not in this generalization) habit of suggesting that people get divorced at the drop of a hat for things like a disappointing Valentine's day, or one cute new person is a way to diminish the actual violence and abuse that can and does happen in some marriages--things worse than fighting over money and vitamins, etc. Most of the divorces I've seen or heard of were based on either physical or serious emotional/verbal abuse over years OR multiple affairs-- or both. While I'm sure some people divorce for silly reasons, most do it after trying many things to solve the problems.

What kind of moral fiber is that if we cannot give our word and keep it all of our lives? A disposable society coming right up… one spouse always gets burned and hurt.

Actually in most divorces, both spouses usually get burned and hurt.

And that leads to my last comment. Sure your marriage works but 50% are failing.

And your marriage sort of worked for years and now, per the blog, works if at least one of you stifles herself (you may do a lot of that too) but 50% are failing.

Why blame Lori for teaching CHRISTIAN women what the BIBLE says about love, marriage and raising kids?????

Well, because I'm more of a Proverbs 31 woman than a Titus 2.

And I'm not sure someone who self describes as having had a lousy marriage for the years she was actually raising kids has more than an academic understanding of what she is telling others to do. Yes, after 23 years, she what-- gave in, was afraid you'd leave her for being a shrew, had peri-menopause so her hormones changed, or found God's true word in a method that sometimes works and when it doesn't, the failure can be blamed on the woman? OK.

If you are not a Christian, don’t follow her advice or the Bible’s. If you are a Christian, use your noggin and think for yourself and discover what part, parts or whole of Lori’s message is what God desires for your life

.

[Olive Plant]

Lori has seen many women win over their difficult and disobedient husbands by their submissive and godly behavior. It is the promise of the Bible to Christian women and we often see it come true.

I am sorry to hear of any relationship not going well, and these women should seek wise counsel as to how they might deal with their men. If they are Christian men, they have a demand on their lives from God to sacrificially love their wives and to consider their wives as more important than they are.

This is what bothers a lot of us on here, and why we think Biblical patriarchy is inherently abusive. Women are told to "get counsel" if their men are being emotionally, verbally and even physically abusive. Counsel from the Bible, and the only line the Bible has to offer in this circumstance is the one you've been quoting about women winning their husbands without a word. I got it quoted to me all the time when I was trying to "get counsel" about my abusive ex-husband. Nobody ever told me I could leave him because he was hurting me. Fundie pastors can't reconcile anything other than what the Bible says about it, and there's nothing in the Bible about leaving if he's abusive. Finally I'd had enough and refused to put up with the BS anymore. Getting divorced was the best thing I ever did, but it meant I lost all my fundie friends and become totally impoverished. It was worth it to me. I was "going against God" according to my pastors, but I was not going to accept their BS version of God and ruin my own life anymore.

To go back to Valentine's day, my boyfriend (who has a very strong personality FYI) made sure I had a great one. I didn't expect it because I'm anti-materialist, but he's pretty great that way. I appreciate that he is willing to do things that make me feel special, which is what Vday is all about. Of course, I did the same for him and so we had a wonderful week because we'd both gone the extra mile.

[formergothardite]

I just had an email from one of your FJ people telling me she snuck off and started reading Lori’s blog some many months ago and does not agree with everything she writes, but her marriage is so much better. She went on to tell me about yesterday when her husband brought home the wrong groceries and her instinct was to call him out on it, instead of thanking him for doing the shopping. She caught herself thinking WWLD, and sure enough she thanked him and had a great evening with him.

The secret PM army has arrived to back up Ken! :lol:

True story, last week we had a major winter storm here in the South. Like a good Southerners I had to immediately rush to the grocery store at the first mention of snow. I was tired, it was packed out, and I kind of some forgot important stuff and bought some wrong things. My husband only eats one brand of cheese and I bought the wrong brand. I get home, he is putting the groceries away, notices and mentions it. It wasn't a major fight or a big of a deal. And if it had of turned into a major fight I think it would be a sign that there was more problems than me being forgetful at the grocery store going on in our marriage. I would not want him to repress his frustrated feelings just to avoid the possibility of upsetting me. And this is what this FJ member picked up from Lori, she needs to hide her feelings, repress them and not let her husband know when he makes a mistake. You can't learn from your mistakes if you never know that you are making them. Now this husband doesn't realize that he didn't buy any of the right groceries and so he will most likely do this again and this lady is going to have to continue to repress her feelings. And they still are not going to have the right groceries.

Ken, since this FJ member thought about what Lori would do and since you didn't contradict her it appears that you agree Lori would do this, how does it make you feel knowing that your wife feels like she can't be honest with you when you make mistakes? Are you so emotionally fragile that you can't handle your wife telling you when you buy the wrong groceries?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Ken, you realize that oxytocin and oxycontin are different, right?

Oxytocin = hormone involved in uterine contractions and milk let-down

OxyContin - brand name of oxycodone, a powerful narcotic

[Koala]

Yes, I said exactly that to Lori as a joke. We joke often about a lot of things and when Lori writes, "I would take the spanking!" of course she would because it would never be a real spanking! So you get your mind to grab a hold of something you see and put what yo think is 2+2 together and it is not even close. It was also an inside joke with SSM. They had a back door discussion once about a husband being able to spank a wife. SSM said something like she would punch him in the nose if her tried, or something like that, and so Lori was egging her on with the comment.

Interesting in light of this advice to SSM gave to her readers:

leticiamary.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/advice-for-a-former-slut-married-to-a-beta-provider-to-whom-she-is-not-sexually-attracted/

Go ahead and skip to #5 and then come back and tell me how Lori and SSM are just having a little "inside joke" or "back door discussion". SSM is very detailed in her description, so you'll see why I have a hard time believing that this was all a light hearted joke.

[2xx1xy1JD]

2xx1xy1JD:

1) No our biggest arguments were not about vegies… they were ultimately about whose will will prevail… it is about control. Why is it that ALL of my college buddies who got married thought that their wives were controlling and somewhat difficult… rationed sex like it was only for good days, and insisted on all of us doing things there way, or we paid the price? My best friend never married and if you asked him why he would say, “Who wants to get married and have your life controlled?â€

So I know you all here would never do that with your husbands, ad your husbands have never felt under the control of your demands or moods… well welcome to the real world where we see it ALL the time. I just had an email from one of your FJ people telling me she snuck off and started reading Lori’s blog some many months ago and does not agree with everything she writes, but her marriage is so much better. She went on to tell me about yesterday when her husband brought home the wrong groceries and her instinct was to call him out on it, instead of thanking him for doing the shopping. She caught herself thinking WWLD, and sure enough she thanked him and had a great evening with him.

This is some of the basic things Lori teaches. You hate it… but it is a necessary message for many many women and Lori has hundreds of success stories like this one. No it is not rocket science, but if you don’t know how to treat your man properly, you can’t do it. Lori’s blog is about selfless giving to your husband. Is that so bad? I like it and it works great for us. And yes, no man should take advantage of a wife who is giving to him selflessly, but should beat her to it, by sacrificially living for her. Voila! A perfect Christian marriage. Lori calls on women everywhere to try it… the worst case it fails, and the best it succeeds. She makes it clear that physical abuse is never to be tolerated without seeking help or the authorities, but she leaves open to women what to do when married to a difficult man. Separation is an option for a Christian spouse.

2) No… Lori gets what she wants for her health. But did she heed to buy two new couches the month after we move into a new house? Remember, poor missionary kid marries MD’s daughter ïŠ. We both had some growing up to do.

3) Yes, went to the Christian psychologist and pastor. Hey, do you al not know that 50% of marriages end in divorce? Do you think we are the only ones with problems. I may need to drink your cool aid here because everyone here is so perfect, especially Koala Bear and all you guys with perfect and wonderful marriages. Well I have a perfectly wonderful marriage now too… and so do a few hundred others because of what Lori is teaching. Apply it and it works… and no the promise to win your man says MAY it is not WILL…. If I remember the verse. So it is not a universal promise, but it is the first step to trying to have a great marriage.

4) Travel half the time for only a few years, then 10 days a month since… I am a 24 hour a day stay at home Dad the other 20 days of each month :0. Got to many of te kids games and ballet… I have a great job where I have no one to blame for my success or failure but me… and there are lots of hours after 5 p.m. and before 8 a.m. to work. Just ask selex.

5) Was I selfish with my time at times… yep. I was a pretty imperfect guy… so you got me. It was not all Lori’s fault. I had to figure out the baggage I brought into the marriage, and the selfishness and grow up to learn to love my wife more and better. Why do you think she changed? I was working very hard on me, because I could not change her. But Basketball and sex…. They are/were pretty sacred to me. Can I give up Sunday School instead? How about being an elder in the church? How about just work 10 hours a week less… but then how can I buy her a house. It’s complicated when you are young, married with four kids under 7 and trying to get to the top of your profession. Where is my necessary outlet if it is not basketball? Need to stay in shape or I am sure Lori will talk to me about my weight ïŠ. And rightfully so!

Remember, we were all confused as to what Lori was going through because she was misdiagnosed by 28 different doctors in five years. Then one ordered a stool test and found the problem… low HCL which made it so she caught every bug available… then the car accident sandwiched between two semi’s and a broken or cracked neck. This is not in today’s world of modern medicine… this is 25 years ago… and you ask if I knew what was going on…. !!! Yes, I was downstairs watching the kids as she writhed in pain in her bed. What were we to do when her MD Dad got her to all the great specialists in NY and LA yet no one could find the problem. Lori is a saint on earth for what she has been through… and God carried her through it all.

I agree that many of your arguments were about control. That's pretty obvious.

I don't know your friends, so I can't comment on their lives. I can only wonder if there is an issue with either the crowd you know, or with everyone's perception.

For example, you felt "controlled" when Lori wanted you to be with the kids and give her a hand instead of playing basketball 3-4 times/week. Lori, though, made it clear on her blog that she was physically at the end of her rope. It wasn't about controlling you - she needed help.

You also talk a lot about women "rationing" sex as a way of controlling men. Again, go back and read that quote from Lori. In a post where she's encouraging wives to have sex, she's frankly saying that she didn't enjoy it when the kids were young, and assumed that other young mothers would naturally feel the same way. Do you understand that sex can be downright painful for a woman if she's not in the mood, even with some lubricant? Both partners should want to improve things, but that's not going to happen if the husband's whole mindset is that his wife is purposely denying him just to punish him.

For the record, I don't "hate" teaching basic courtesy and respect in marriage. In fact, I teach it myself. I don't think that constant criticism and no appreciation is good for ANY relationship. Once upon a time, as a newlywed, I came home, look for my good cream suit, and noticed a shredded pink rag on our bed. With a growing sense of horror, I realized that my new husband had done laundry, by sticking my best dry-clean only suit into the washing machine with his new red t-shirt, on the regular cycle with hot water, and then stuck it in the dryer. I held off on the urge to scream, because I realized that if I did, I may scare him off ever doing the laundry again.

That said, I don't consider that to be about submission, because I'd expect the same from my husband if I messed something up. It's called mutual respect.

Did you guys ever have a proper sit-down about money and budgeting? You mentioning something about Christian counseling, but what about a basic conversation at the table at home, where you make a list of the income and expenses, and talk about priorities? You certainly weren't the only couple to have differing financial views, and I'm a fan of financial literacy, budgeting and priorities being discussed during premarital counseling.

[bTW, I've noticed that some of Lori's advice can be a bit....financially unrealistic. I'm not really sure how a couple is supposed to marry young even if the man is still in school, have lots of kids right away, have the wife always stay home, eat organic everything, avoid public schools and public colleges, and pay $20,000 per semester for family studies courses at a Christian college. The math doesn't work, and choices need to be made.]

Just curious - were there issues with your inlaws? You've mentioned her parents and the fact that she was the daughter of an MD more than once. I get the sense that there was some tension.

I don't think I've ever heard someone describe basketball as "sacred" before :lol: My husband was into running, though, so I sort of get it. Still, we had a discussion about how he could get his exercise without throwing off the schedule for the rest of the family. Two words: jogging stroller.

I knew that you didn't get a diagnosis for Lori for a long time. Still, was she able to say, "I'm not feeling too sexy because I'm tired and in pain"? Did she just go through the motions without ever saying how she felt? Theoretically, if there wasn't the extra health issues, and you learned that you had a wife who was exhausted but who would have more libido if she could get some rest, take a bath and maybe exercise, would you consider modifying the basketball schedule so that could happen?

[salex]

2xx1xy1JD:

1) No our biggest arguments were not about vegies… they were ultimately about whose will will prevail… it is about control. Why is it that ALL of my college buddies who got married thought that their wives were controlling and somewhat difficult… rationed sex like it was only for good days, and insisted on all of us doing things there way, or we paid the price?

So, your buddies talked about sex with your wives like teen boys bragging in the locker room, except instead of saying how much you were getting, you said how little? And went on and on about what ball breakers you had all married. I am literally sitting hear wondering what to say to this. There is an old joke that ends "first liar doesn't stand a chance" because I suspect the stories got more and more ramped up about what horrors your married lives were. Women play a version of that game as well I find both despicable. My husband told me what he did and I adapted it. He would be listening to the gripe session and say "wow, Salex never does stuff like that, she did (some good thing) here. It slows down the complain about your wife cycle. One guy once said to me when we met "wow, I thought you'd be walking on water the way Mr. Salex talks about you, but that was better then him not saying but thinking.. yeah, she seems nice, but I"ve heard what a bitch she really is. If you had spent as much time talking to Lori about how you felt about the things you were complaining to your friends about, wouldn' t that have been time better spent?

My best friend never married and if you asked him why he would say, “Who wants to get married and have your life controlled?†Also what my divorced women friends say. So, clearly men aren't the only people who have had relationships like this.

So I know you all here would never do that with your husbands, ad your husbands have never felt under the control of your demands or moods… well welcome to the real world where we see it ALL the time.

If my husband ever felt like I was trying to control him, we'd have discussed it and figured out what was going on. I would say that in relationships where the balance of power is assumed to be man in charge and in control, instead of two people on equal footing, there may be more game playing. If the woman is trading sex for "stuff" power, getting her husband to do something, or some monetary/material thing she wants, then she and her husband are turning their sex life into a form of prostitution, which is demeaning for both of them. I can honestly say I thought the whole "that is what mommy does for jewelry" sort of punch line was about a very few people, not the norm, as you seem to be describing here. I had always assumed that sex is exchanged for sex-- if both enjoy it and get pleasure from it and their is no need to sell it for power, who would want to ration sex?

I just had an email from one of your FJ people telling me she snuck off and started reading Lori’s blog some many months ago and does not agree with everything she writes, but her marriage is so much better. She went on to tell me about yesterday when her husband brought home the wrong groceries and her instinct was to call him out on it, instead of thanking him for doing the shopping. She caught herself thinking WWLD, and sure enough she thanked him and had a great evening with him.

So, your advice to people is for the wife to become or pretend to become that thing you mentioned to me in an earlier post... If one spouse has a Relater personality, the marriage almost always naturally works because the Relater will regularly give in and create the harmony. They have no string opinions or need to be right... they just want peace.

This is some of the basic things Lori teaches. You hate it… but it is a necessary message for many many women and Lori has hundreds of success stories like this one. No it is not rocket science, but if you don’t know how to treat your man properly, you can’t do it. Lori’s blog is about selfless giving to your husband. Is that so bad? I like it and it works great for us. And yes, no man should take advantage of a wife who is giving to him selflessly, but should beat her to it, by sacrificially living for her. Voila! A perfect Christian marriage. Lori calls on women everywhere to try it… the worst case it fails, and the best it succeeds. She makes it clear that physical abuse is never to be tolerated without seeking help or the authorities, but she leaves open to women what to do when married to a difficult man. Separation is an option for a Christian spouse.

I'd say I selflessly give to my husband and he selflessly gives to me , and sometimes we miss it, but the difference is (as I tried to show earlier) we do it naturally, because we want to and like to, as opposed to it being a rule imposed on us from outside our marriage, OR something we started doing maybe even faking, in order to get the other person's actions to change.

2) No… Lori gets what she wants for her health. But did she heed to buy two new couches the month after we move into a new house? Remember, poor missionary kid marries MD’s daughter ïŠ. We both had some growing up to do.

I don't know when the couches thing was? Had you and she not set up a budget? Was she not aware of how much money was available.

3) Yes, went to the Christian psychologist and pastor. Hey, do you al not know that 50% of marriages end in divorce?

Lies, damn lies and statistics.

spokesperson for the U.S. National Center for Health Statistics told me that the rumor appears to have originated from a misreading of the facts. It was true, he said, if you looked at all the marriages and divorces within a single year, you'd find that there were twice as many marriages as divorces. In 1981, for example, there were 2.4 million marriages and 1.2 million divorces. At first glance, that would seem like a 50-percent divorce rate.

Virtually none of those divorces were among the people who had married during that year, however, and the statistic failed to take into account the 54 million marriages that already existed, the majority of which would not see divorce. truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/divorce.htm#.UwYOBvldURo (Also, despite a small bump in divorce now that the economy is picking up, divorce in general is going down compared to 20-30 years ago.)

Do you think we are the only ones with problems. I may need to drink your cool aid here because everyone here is so perfect, especially Koala Bear and all you guys with perfect and wonderful marriages. Well I have a perfectly wonderful marriage now too… and so do a few hundred others because of what Lori is teaching. Apply it and it works… and no the promise to win your man says MAY it is not WILL…. If I remember the verse. So it is not a universal promise, but it is the first step to trying to have a great marriage.

4) Travel half the time for only a few years, then 10 days a month since… I am a 24 hour a day stay at home Dad the other 20 days of each month :0. Got to many of te kids games and ballet… I have a great job where I have no one to blame for my success or failure but me… and there are lots of hours after 5 p.m. and before 8 a.m. to work. Just ask selex.

Yep, long hours, which is why we got the maid, bought a lock bar for his office door, made it so I could travel with him and planned for a travelling nanny if the kid thing had worked out--

5) Was I selfish with my time at times… yep. I was a pretty imperfect guy… so you got me. It was not all Lori’s fault. I had to figure out the baggage I brought into the marriage, and the selfishness and grow up to learn to love my wife more and better. Why do you think she changed? I was working very hard on me, because I could not change her. But Basketball and sex…. They are/were pretty sacred to me. Can I give up Sunday School instead? How about being an elder in the church? How about just work 10 hours a week less… but then how can I buy her a house. It’s complicated when you are young, married with four kids under 7 and trying to get to the top of your profession. Where is my necessary outlet if it is not basketball? Need to stay in shape or I am sure Lori will talk to me about my weight ïŠ. And rightfully so!'

Remember, we were all confused as to what Lori was going through because she was misdiagnosed by 28 different doctors in five years. Then one ordered a stool test and found the problem… low HCL which made it so she caught every bug available… then the car accident sandwiched between two semi’s and a broken or cracked neck. This is not in today’s world of modern medicine… this is 25 years ago… and you ask if I knew what was going on…. !!! Yes, I was downstairs watching the kids as she writhed in pain in her bed. What were we to do when her MD Dad got her to all the great specialists in NY and LA yet no one could find the problem. Lori is a saint on earth for what she has been through… and God carried her through it all.

[Firiel]

Okay, so that doesn't sound like a promise to me, but you are interpreting it as one. God promises that submitting to a husband will draw him back to you if he is disobedient. So. I submitted. My ex is still a cruel, hypocritical liar. At this point, there are three options.

1) God lied.

2) It was my fault-- submitting to abuse, cheating, and theft wasn't enough.

3) You are interpreting the verse incorrectly.

If you don't mind my asking, which is it, Ken? Honestly, if you want to choose #2 and put the blame on me, I won't even be mad. I've heard it before. I'd actually be impressed that you were honest enough to admit that this kind of thinking places the blame on victims of abuse. Most people insist on talking around it.

So if God promises that wifely submission will lead to happy marriages by "winning" the husband over, and it didn't work for me, which of the three options above is true? I truly, honestly did my best to submit. That includes giving up my birthday and Christmas money for bills, only to have him spend the $600ish on iTunes. I didn't get mad at him for spending money like that, even though he didn't have a job for a while and we were living on my $800 a month. I never yelled at him or told him he was being selfish. But if that's a promise from God in the Bible, then one of these three choices needs to be true.