Doug Phillips is a Tool and Vision Forum is Dead - Part 6

[CloakNDagger]

Lots of misconceptions out there indeed. Actually kind of funny to read that post.

[Nobodysdoormat]

Lots of misconceptions out there indeed. Actually kind of funny to read that post.

Funny why?

[Nobodysdoormat]

Pretty disappointed with the extremely loooong winded article. Nothing new just an adjustment of her opinion of his personality.

[Marian the Librarian]

Re: Julie Anne's article -

Dougie ruled by chaos and charisma, was "completely lacking in even the most basic common sense," "had an expectation to be praised," and "wanted to be the center of attention and his mere presence dominated a room."

In other words, he's a textbook example of a spoiled brat.

[debrand]

Brad talked about how in any of these different systems, people put their hope in a leader or a system, and no longer directly in Jesus.

I have a problem with this statement. Everyone of Doug's followers believed that they were following Jesus. This sounds like a well meaning statement that not only accidentally guilts victims by implying that they just weren't good enough Christians but it also gives other people a false sense of security. Being taken by someone like Doug Phillips has nothing to do with following Jesus. Many people are susceptible to manipulators because they take(the manipulators) advantage of our beliefs or even our sense of compassion.

But it is common in controlling systems that circumstances, whether intentional or not, prevent puzzle pieces from coming together in a timely fashion in order to put a stop to the abuse. In this case, as you will soon see, once key people did finally get their puzzle pieces joined together to see the big picture, they did in fact act upon it.

Good point and why it is so important for people in BCA to control gossip.

One thing that seems to be missing is the acknowledgment that the entire system is at fault, not just Doug Phillips. They can get rid of him but the problem will just remanifest in other ways.

Doug Phillips’ wife, Beall was more liberated than we would envision of a typical mother in the Homeschool Movement. She took care of herself by going to get her hair done, her nails done, etc.

This doesn't surprise me. Anyone who saw photos of Beall or the Botkins realizes that they wear makeup and get their hair done. Many of the more prominent female members in the movement look as thought they don't mind spending money on their appearance. I don't think that getting their hair or nails done was a bad thing by the way, it just doesn't surprise me.

I am glad that the writer of Spiritual Sounding Board is being so careful but our forum has already discussed most of the same issues. We have always known that many of the newer Calvinists drink alcohol and dance, for example.

[Palimpsest]

Lots of misconceptions out there indeed. Actually kind of funny to read that post.

If you are unwilling to identify and explain the "misconceptions out there" you should probably keep your trap shut.

[Palimpsest]

In this article Julie Anne and Brad/futuristguy are putting the DP situation into a useful framework for analysis, that's all. No real news. Essentially, Julie Anne is saying that Jen/TW Eston were portraying Doug as a "control" leader, but he falls more into the other two types.

Fair enough, and it does explain some of the inconsistencies in the gossip that has been drifting out. It means that my theory was wrong about DP using a more iron fist with BCA members than with VF members -- Doug was a much more slapdash leader across the board. It implies that rules were made up on the spot and in response to situations arising and that kept everyone off balance.

Actually that is consistent with what FJ's very own little Deep Throat, CnD, has been saying.

I have a problem with this statement. Everyone of Doug's followers believed that they were following Jesus. This sounds like a well meaning statement that not only accidentally guilts victims by implying that they just weren't good enough Christians but it also gives other people a false sense of security. Being taken by someone like Doug Phillips has nothing to do with following Jesus. Many people are susceptible to manipulators because they take(the manipulators) advantage of our beliefs or even our sense of compassion.

Yes. I have a problem with it too. I agree on the apparent victim-blaming and on giving others a false sense of security. However, I read this statement in the context of Julie Anne's overall belief system. She is still conservative Christian and still thinks within that framework. I don't know whether she calls herself a Berean, but she is very big on telling people never to place trust in an "earthly leader " and to look to the scriptures for answers. Very Acts 17:11.

One thing that seems to be missing is the acknowledgment that the entire system is at fault, not just Doug Phillips. They can get rid of him but the problem will just remanifest in other ways.

You can lead horses to water ...

I am glad that the writer of Spiritual Sounding Board is being so careful but our forum has already discussed most of the same issues. We have always known that many of the newer Calvinists drink alcohol and dance, for example.

If Julie Anne doesn't read here (and I think she does) then quite a few of her commenters do! Brian certainly does. Hi Brian!

I'm glad that Julie Anne is being so careful to give a context and review all the issues because her blog is so much more respectable than FJ! Her respectability and very spiritual take may make VF people think and change their minds. All good Fundies know that FJ is just a den of ebil, bitter, feminist hussies!

[Queen Of Hearts]

I feel like the kid from 'A Christmas Story'... waiting for weeks for the very exciting Little orphan Annie decoder ring only to be disappointed by the results.

Let's hope parts 2 onward give us some new facts, and not just more personal analysis.

[debrand]

I'm glad that Julie Anne is being so careful to give a context and review all the issues because her blog is so much more respectable than FJ! Her respectability and very spiritual take may make VF people think and change their minds. All good Fundies know that FJ is just a den of ebil, bitter, feminist hussies!

LOL Yeah, some of the former VFers will probably be listen more to someone that shares at least some of their conservative beliefs. I have to admit, I am a pretty ebil, feminist hussy but I haven't tasted myself lately so I don't know if I am bitter.

VF is just one of the fundamentalist groups that we discuss which seem to unknowingly train their children to follow a cult leader or, at least, someone who is very manipulative. Things like blanket training, first time cheerful obedience, having a servant's heart etc. might seem like good ways to a fundie family for controlling a large number of kids but it creates future adults who will not know how to trust their own instincts. They are raising future followers instead of the leaders that they want.

[CloakNDagger]

If you are unwilling to identify and explain the "misconceptions out there" you should probably keep your trap shut.

It was bedtime. Patience.

[fundiefan]

I just read it and said "Duh". I have always seen Doug as full of himself and chaos often accompanies such arrogance. Tgw man plays dress up and screams 'look at me' every chance he gets, or can create. Anyway, I never had a view of him ad controlling with an iron fist so this first post tells me absolutely nothing. I hope what's to come will have substance.

[DomWackTroll]

I just read it and said "Duh". I have always seen Doug as full of himself and chaos often accompanies such arrogance. Tgw man plays dress up and screams 'look at me' every chance he gets, or can create. Anyway, I never had a view of him ad controlling with an iron fist so this first post tells me absolutely nothing. I hope what's to come will have substance.

Yeah, it's not like we ever described him as the Jim Jones of San Antonio. His tropical adventures were only temporary-- and air conditioned. :)

[Arete]

Got to remember that Julie Anne is not writing for an FJ audience. A lot of them already come in with a complete lack of critical thinking skills. She is right to give them a framework and some working definitions, even if it does bore us. Ours are not the eyes that need to be opened.

[Jane_Goth]

From SSB

Although Doug Philips was one of two teaching elders at Boerne Christian Assembly, he was gone more than he was there... He was very wrapped up in his Vision Forum efforts, speaking engagements, travels. He also did not have time to devote to being a good shepherd or care for his flock the way a full-time pastor could and should. He was unable to do much counseling of families in crises. Being gone so much prevented Phillips from being able to enforce rigid rules.

That doesn't surprise me, I've always had the impression that he was "all fur coat, nae knickers", and wouldn't be there for the difficult, unglamorous work that he couldn't use to puff up his image.

What I've never understood is how he became a pastor. As far as I'm aware he has no formal qualifications in theology, not even an undeserved honorary PhD from an unaccredited "seminary.' How did he persuade people (who were not related to him) to accept him as a pastor? I know he has charisma, but surely theological training no matter how shonky, matters within his denomination. I mean I have an O level in Religious Education which makes me more formally qualified* than the Tool, but if I tried to set up myself up as a pastor I wouldn't even be able to get my kids to follow me.

*If we ignore my lack of penis and atheism.

[hoipolloi]

Many of these people have no pastoral training. This include James McDonald (of James & Stacy) who claimed to be an SBC-ordained pastor but was not. He appears to be rectifying that gap in his resume:

James McDonald, husband to Stacy, father of ten (three married), and grandfather of two, serves as pastor of Providence Church. A graduate of the University of Idaho (BSME), James is on a lifelong quest to complete his Master of Divinity and is currently enrolled at The North American Reformed Seminary. A man who has worn many hats, James has served as a design engineer, operations planner, global marketing director, and a publisher, but his true love is preaching God’s Word and ministering to God’s people. He enjoys strong coffee and what some consider to be odd food – from anything Cajun to shark, crawfish, sushi, elk, ostrich, the list goes on and on. Thankfully, his wife Stacy is a wonderful cook, who could make card board taste like bruschetta.

James and his family moved to Central Illinois in 2006 from Southeast Texas, where he served as pastor of Crown and Covenant Presbyterian Church. The McDonald family lives on two acres of heaven in the middle of nowhere Illinois, where they spend their spare time raising a few chickens, adventuring in the woods and corn fields, and reading good books.

[emphasis added]

Another religious mogul, CJ Mahaney is a high school graduate, no college or other professional training whatsoever.

[dora]

He eats sushi. Now weird is that?

Nice way of spinning 'doesn't have his degree yet'. I studied. The Reformation in 7th form history, I might be more qualified than him too.

[DomWackTroll]

From SSB

That doesn't surprise me, I've always had the impression that he was "all fur coat, nae knickers", and wouldn't be there for the difficult, unglamorous work that he couldn't use to puff up his image.

What I've never understood is how he became a pastor. As far as I'm aware he has no formal qualifications in theology, not even an undeserved honorary PhD from an unaccredited "seminary.' How did he persuade people (who were not related to him) to accept him as a pastor? I know he has charisma, but surely theological training no matter how shonky, matters within his denomination. I mean I have an O level in Religious Education which makes me more formally qualified* than the Tool, but if I tried to set up myself up as a pastor I wouldn't even be able to get my kids to follow me.

*If we ignore my lack of penis and atheism.

By calling himself an "elder" instead.

[hoipolloi]

By calling himself an "elder" instead.

"Teaching elder" is another popular self-given title among these people.

It all works when you have a captive population who's told not to gossip & also taught to mistrust conventional education and training.

[Jane_Goth]

Thank you DWT and Hoipolli, I must admit I didn't know that about James McDonald and CJ Mahaney. I had a quick look at Mahaney's Wiki and it says

In 1974, aged 20, Mahaney had met Larry Tomczak, with whom he led and taught a large local prayer group. He says his only reading in theology at that time had consisted of the Bible and The Late, Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey.[1]

In the 1980s, Mahaney became a senior pastor. He cites his reading of the works of 19th century Baptist leader Charles H. Spurgeon and the Reformed theology of John Calvin as influences.[1]

And that's it on his theological training! I've not edited anything out, I find it gobsmacking that they can get to these levels of influence, but I guess there are a lot of marks out there for these "religious" grifters to target. I'm beginning to have a bit more respect for the IFB* with church hall university honorary degrees, at least they pretend to value learning.

*I have to admit all I know about the IFB is from the excellent Stuff Fundies Like blog

[Fallgirl30]

I can tell a lot about a person, simply by looking at their Amazon.com wish list. Some are public, some private. I was so bored last night, that I did a search on Bradrick, then Geoff Botkin. Turns out, Peter Bradrick has a book on his list about how to bury things. Also, either on his, or his brother's, is a book about the importance of OT laws, in modern times. Surprise! Anyways, it's eye opening, to say the least. :whistle:

[SamuraiKatz]

I can tell a lot about a person, simply by looking at their Amazon.com wish list. Some are public, some private. I was so bored last night, that I did a search on Bradrick, then Geoff Botkin. Turns out, Peter Bradrick has a book on his list about how to bury things. Also, either on his, or his brother's, is a book about the importance of OT laws, in modern times. Surprise! Anyways, it's eye opening, to say the least. :whistle:

What would Bradrick want to bury?

[Fallgirl30]

What would Bradrick want to bury?

Something about underground storage. It sounds something along the lines of what Bradrick! Was about. :cray-cray:

[SamuraiKatz]

Something about underground storage. It sounds something along the lines of what Bradrick! Was about. :cray-cray:

Thanks for the clarification. I think I have been watching too much ID Discovery.

[NotALoserLikeYou]

Thanks for the clarification. I think I have been watching too much ID Discovery.

Lol same thought here (and that channel is addictive)

[snarkopolis]

Because it's not about the 'Christ' bit (don't go dragging him into all this and confusing everybody),, it's about clinging to black and white rules that will prevent the insecure little privileged mummies boys from slipping from the what they perceive to be top of the manure heap.

In their eyes Bible= Rules and Bible= Christian. Therefore, Rules=Christian. SODRT fail. Someone should explode their little minds by demonstrating with a Venn diagram.

Sowwy! I went to ebil publick and catholic school.