Doug Phillips is a Tool and Vision Forum is Dead - Part 6

[Marian the Librarian]

I can only see Ryan Short's discussion. Are the other ones set to private? Or...

No, they're all public Facebook pages - I'm not "friends" with any of these folks!

From the Seppis' page:

Friends - We use to feel bad about our theological differences with Doug, now we see he was on the wrong trail in many other ways as well.

Perry Coghlan posted the link to the article yesterday, one needs to scroll down a bit on his page. There are way too many comments to cut and paste here, but here's one by Perry:

There's only one person responsible for the fall of VF. Not 3.

The idea that Doug or anyone else would try to claim that my friends conspired to take down a company that was floundering because Doug wasn't taking care of business is beyond laughable to me.

I'm not sure we could have made it out of 2014 as a company without the scandal.

Dude man up.

Ryan Short has linked to the article twice, yesterday (again, scroll down) and again today:

I know, it's a repost... but one of my biggest concerns is the firm conviction that DP is not the only "actor" in this situation that needs to repent. I believe that a general look at what has been done, and what has been taught (like the "gossip" rule and more) is also in order, and certainly there are people who have been hurt along the way that should be restored. It's convenient to put all of the blame in one direction, but we should all examine our roles in the failure. Certainly those in accountability positions should be doing some serious introspection right now. Looking back at the last 15 years, I have played back some things from memory that certainly have a different light to them now. So sad.

[MamaJunebug]

In my experience, having spent some time around a (non-religious) cult-like organization, there is a strong sense of "who are the insiders" of the culture, with the ordinary participants wishing they could be an insider. Oftentimes there is the mental confusion that being an insider means you are somehow better at demonstrating the principles of the organization, which of course isn't correct, but the illusion is strong that if you believe these principles, the closer you can get to their source, the better you must be.

I can easily see how a well-meaning person would be so taken with any opportunity to become an insider, that they would not feel there is a problem with the rule-breaking they see or experience happening around them.

Also (and this was my original point) it comes very easily to a believer's mind, the idea that "all rules have exceptions" or that "VIPs are exempt from some of the rules". I can remember the feeling from my own surroundings. It can develop to the point where the violation of the group's rules is perceived as the manifestation of how "special" or "insider" one is. In other words, the breaking of the rules does not cause mental strife and internal conflict; rather, those "exemptions" are the very actions that tell a person they have made it to "insider" level. I was astounded (in hindsight, of course) at how easily I accepted the idea that the rules didn't always apply to the top people.

Interesting insight into human nature w/r/t involvement with more than one kind of group that I can recall!

I know the following is unlikely, but had Doug Phillips Is A Tool been able to continue his affair, would he eventually have steered his "principles' toward plural marriage, as the foreFATHERS of old in the PATRIARCHAL times practiced? Of course, by the time he'd've been able to persuade the flock toward this, Hero would've been well past her prime as a new & fertile sister-wife, so who knows what would've become of her? But there might've been dozens nay hundreds of young SAHD who would've plotted with their parents to get in on that opportunity. But I hope not.

Back to the topic, which should not be hijacked by certain insects no matter how cutely named, yes, my current prayers are that the Bradrick! Three stand firm against Doug's legal b.s. and continue to develop the rational self-confidence, and to rely on good counsel (REAL "Esq." people) to move forward with what they know is right.

As to Hero, now that it's confirmed, I'm not going to put too much stock either way in the photos and videos we've seen of her, to decide how she was/is/will be. As any good candid-reality-show fan will tell you, producers can use and promote the images that will keep the fanbase interested and satisfied. But right up there with my prayers that the Bradrick! Three learning, healing and moving in an intelligent direction toward real freedom, the same for her, bless them all.

[CloakNDagger]

I know the following is unlikely, but had Doug Phillips Is A Tool been able to continue his affair, would he eventually have steered his "principles' toward plural marriage, as the foreFATHERS of old in the PATRIARCHAL times practiced? Of course, by the time he'd've been able to persuade the flock toward this, Hero would've been well past her prime as a new & fertile sister-wife, so who knows what would've become of her? But there might've been dozens nay hundreds of young SAHD who would've plotted with their parents to get in on that opportunity. But I hope not.

As to Hero, now that it's confirmed, I'm not going to put too much stock either way in the photos and videos we've seen of her, to decide how she was/is/will be. As any good candid-reality-show fan will tell you, producers can use and promote the images that will keep the fanbase interested and satisfied. But right up there with my prayers that the Bradrick! Three learning, healing and moving in an intelligent direction toward real freedom, the same for her, bless them all.

Hero, at least in conversation that I had with her, claimed that he had told her if his wife died, she would be his wife, so that theory isn't too far out. I can't imagine why she would have made that kind of thing up.

[karismanic]

Hero, at least in conversation that I had with her, claimed that he had told her if his wife died, she would be his wife, so that theory isn't too far out. I can't imagine why she would have made that kind of thing up.

Is this where TW Eston's theory that DP might try to off his wife originated?

[MamaJunebug]

Hero, at least in conversation that I had with her, claimed that he had told her if his wife died, she would be his wife, so that theory isn't too far out. I can't imagine why she would have made that kind of thing up.

..... Beall's gotta know that ole Doug had a succession plan all in place, in the event of her demise. Phew. I hope she has the nalgas JensGems indicated she did, way back when. I doubt her need for them will lessen as time goes by.

*shudder*

[CloakNDagger]

Is this where TW Eston's theory that DP might try to off his wife originated?

I don't know, and of course, I cannot confirm that he actually said it... I'm not trying to engage in defamation (waves at Doug's lawyer), but trying to figure out what on earth took place in this mess and in particular, how that she would think it was OK to be involved like she was. This stuff is so weird and wrong, it's stranger than a novel. I figure you all here at fJ already have your opinions and such, and it's not like I'm making you think any more ill of the situation than you already do.

It's weird that she would say she was told that. It's not something that would be like her to make up.

[Marian the Librarian]

..... Beall's gotta know that ole Doug had a succession plan all in place, in the event of her demise. Phew. I hope she has the nalgas JensGems indicated she did, way back when. I doubt her need for them will lessen as time goes by.

*shudder*

If I were Beall, I'd be coming up with a little succession plan of my own.

[SamuraiKatz]

..... Beall's gotta know that ole Doug had a succession plan all in place, in the event of her demise. Phew. I hope she has the nalgas JensGems indicated she did, way back when. I doubt her need for them will lessen as time goes by.

*shudder*

If Doug's succession plan is true, then Beall needs to take the minor children and leave! She will neverbe safe living with her husband.

[Mal]

Is this where TW Eston's theory that DP might try to off his wife originated?

Not many people know that DPIAT's DW allegedly had some serious health issues during some of this time. Of course, she probably is being "adored" now that she is 'all he has'. Run my dear.

[Mary C Doates]

I can only see Ryan Short's discussion. Are the other ones set to private? Or...

I can't find any of these discussions :cry:. Maybe Doug Phillips, who is a tool, is trying to prevent me from learning more about his less-than-Christian behaviour. If only I could get help from Bradrick! for this snark emergency. Alas....

[Alcyone]

It's interesting that Mal mentions possible health issues for BP. I haven't previously seen any discussion of that but I've pondered it since around the time their youngest was born. I read DP's blog pretty regularly for years and there was something about the tone of the posts around that time that made me wonder if BP had had quite a difficult time conceiving and bearing the last few babies.

I heard DP speak at a conference back when he only had four or five children and he seemed to desire a very large family. I wonder if BP did have health problems that made a quiver of a dozen or more impossible. I remember he especially wanted sons after having three daughters in a row (wrote about it on his blog). So the fact that he "only" ended up having eight children and "only" four boys could have been hard for a "kingdom builder" to accept. It could have made the temptation of a young woman even more tempting. Interesting that if these health problems did indeed exist, they were kept very quiet rather than, at the very least, alluded to in a request for prayer. Even if poor health was not a problem, I have always wondered how simple old age and the end of fertility in the marriage would impact someone with the kind of mindset DP had (has?) about building a legacy through childbearing.

[gustava]

If CND is accurately repeating that Hero said she wuold become Doug's wife if anything happened to Beall, then the situation is beginning to seem like an "ordinary" affair. Guess Doug Phillips is a tool should have chatted with Ahnold.

[Othello]

Hero, at least in conversation that I had with her...

Hey CnD, I don't know if you speak to her often but if you do, please assure her that there are a lot of people out there who support her, people still in the VF fold, young people who grew up in it like myself, and those outside – people of all stripes. We want the best for her and wish her a quick recovery and a bright future!

[Marian the Librarian]

Hey CnD, I don't know if you speak to her often but if you do, please assure her that there are a lot of people out there who support her, people still in the VF fold, young people who grew up in it like myself, and those outside – people of all stripes. We want the best for her and wish her a quick recovery and a bright future!

Seconded! :clap:

[Marian the Librarian]

The Reconstructionist Theonomists FB page links to the most recent Spiritual Sounding Board post, regarding Dougie's threatened legal actions against Muela, Bradrick and Renaud. Per one commenter -

Is it wrong for me to question Mr Phillips' sanity at this point?

Uh, that would be a no.

[CloakNDagger]

Hey CnD, I don't know if you speak to her often but if you do, please assure her that there are a lot of people out there who support her, people still in the VF fold, young people who grew up in it like myself, and those outside – people of all stripes. We want the best for her and wish her a quick recovery and a bright future!

She knows. It's going to be a long road ahead but hopefully a better one.

[ILoveJellybeans]

Im glad Hero knows that people support her and wish her well for the future. It must have been hard for her, with all the judgement heaped on women in their culture when it comes to anything more than side hugs outside of marriage. Im just so glad that her identity has been kept somewhat secret, so it isn't splashed all over the internet. I hope one day she is able to move on from this and finds a man who loves her and only her, and is not a Tool.

[Peas n carrots]

Is this where TW Eston's theory that DP might try to off his wife originated?

Hmmm...well it's hard to tell what's going on in Doug Philips who is a Tool's head, but all things considered he might have it in him to off his wife.

How old is DPIAT's youngest? I'm wondering if the time this affair started perhaps coincided with the realization that Beall would no longer be able to provide him more arrows for his quiver?

[MamaJunebug]

I want to say that the youngest -- the excruciatingly precocious* Virginia Somevirtueorother -- is 6?

* I'm not snarking on a child of tender years, but on her parent(s) who've saturated Dominionist media with seemingly every cute performance the kid ever gave...

[CloakNDagger]

I want to say that the youngest -- the excruciatingly precocious* Virginia Somevirtueorother -- is 6?

* I'm not snarking on a child of tender years, but on her parent(s) who've saturated Dominionist media with seemingly every cute performance the kid ever gave...

No. Seven last year. I really do feel for them :(

[Cleopatra7]

I appreciate you sharing this. It does give me another perspective. I have to admit from what I have seen of Hero in video and such she comes across as very confident, very self-assured. It is hard to think of someone like that, especially when in their 20s, being taken advantage of so easily. But I also forget that life in fundy-land is not life as I know it. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

From what I know of the situation, Hero's seems somewhat analogous to what Debbie Layton experienced in People's Temple/Jonestown. As Layton describes in her book "Seductive Poison," she and her entire family not only ended up as enthusiastic PT members, but she was given key positions of authority within the organization although she was only in her late teens/early twenties. Like Hero, Layton became part of an inner circle and thought she was working towards a "vision," which allowed to turn off her moral compass or at least justify the unjustifiable. Layton describes how Jim Jones take advantage of her sexually on more than one occasion, with Jones claiming that he was "helping" her to be a better revolutionary, help her self-esteem, etc. It's worth noting that Jones also used her brother Larry in a sexual way, after stealing his wife Carolyn so she could become his favorite mistress. Carolyn in turn sent other young women, including her younger sister Annie to Jones for "counselling," knowing full well what that entailed. All of these PT members who were getting involved with Jones were legal adults, but they were obviously coerced into having sex with Jones. Like Jones, I think Doug Phillips is a Tool was a narcissist who used sex as a means of manipulation and control. Promising marriage or other spiritual or financial rewards makes the victim(s) feel like it is in their interest to succumb to the abuser's whims.

[MamaJunebug]

CnD, you may/not be able to address this without blowing your cover, but I'll still ask: Is Beall reconciling with her family of origin? Cleo's mention, above, of Jim Jones breaking up a marriage so he could do both the wife and husband reminded me of the reports that Doug estranged Beall from her folks.

The fact that we never saw prayer requests for Beall's health - something most clergy would have asked for, without a second thought - tells me that Doug was in the heretical system that teaches "God wants you to be prosperous and happy if you're serving Him (as interpreted by me!!) properly." To acknowledge illness in the family is to cast doubt upon the family's righteousness overall.

Add that to the Christ-less, rules-belaboring, dominionistic sermons and tours ad merchandise, and the political nature of the "ministry" seem pretty darn apparent.

[Marian the Librarian]

Jen's Gems has been updated with a new, long article entitled "Doug Phillips: Peace Maker or Truth Silencer?"

The most interesting paragraph, IMHO:

But what happens when Doug Phillips decides he wants to be the one to call for mediation through Peacemaker Ministries? Rumor has it that Beall Phillips asked Peacemaker to mediate between Doug Phillips and Cassandra and her family before this all went public. Knowing that Peacemaker always requires silence on both sides during and after conciliation, this would have been a perfect way to forever keep Doug Phillips’ adultery hidden, allowing the family to continue their opulent lifestyle and the public fame and glory that they so enjoyed. However, Cassandra was wise enough to decline such an arrangement, and so was Peacemaker Ministries. Having met with Doug Phillips before, they probably knew it would not be a prudent case to take on. Three strikes.

jensgems.wordpress.com/

[Peas n carrots]

Maybe Beall knew if this exploded she would have to give up the lifestyle she grew accustomed to. Could it be her and Doug's marriage is only a marriage of convenience (or at least it has become one over the years).

[MamaJunebug]

Thank God – and I mean that literally – that both Hero and Peacemaker declined the idea.