Lori Wants Ladies to Shut Up in Church

[GeoBQn]

Lori trots out what is surely one of her favorite Bible quotes, the one about women being silent in churches.

I have heard several women argue against these verses by using the account after Christ's resurrection when He told the women to “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.†{Matthew 28:10} So they think that it must be alright for women to speak and be leaders in the church if Jesus told them to proclaim His resurrection to the disciples.

For one thing, there was no church when Jesus told the women this. It started later, after He was ascended into heaven. God had Paul teach the people how church meetings were to be conducted. There must have been some chaos in the churches.

The women must have been talking too much in the church which women are prone to do. Have you ever been in a Bible Study with men and women and noticed the women usually dominated the conversation? We definitely like to talk more than most men, therefore, Paul commanded the women not to speak in the church.

I am not sure how far he wanted us to take this command. I know he doesn't want women in leadership positions over men in the church and teaching them. He is very clear about that. I don't think he meant for women not to sing or teach children or other women. He just wanted to silence a woman's inclination to speak out and speak her mind which would lead to chaos in the church.

Then she ends by spouting "separate but equal" bullshit.

lorialexander.blogspot.com/2013/08/women-silenced-in-church.html

[kpmom]

Oh yeah, the old, "You don't have as many rights as a man, but you're just a valuable, and equal, in God's sight, so sit your pretty self down and shut up", argument.

[docmom]

I want Lori to shut up on the internet.

[lilwriter85]

I don't think he meant for women not to sing or teach children or other women.

Well the church Lori attends pretty much meets this. The women on the staff have more adminstrative jobs which are mostly related to children and women's programs.

northcoastcalvary.org/index.php?our-staff/

[salsa]

I actually *have* seen 2 women leave the sanctuary, as people were gathering for worship, in order to talk to each other.

Of course Lori thinks women are just blithering bumbleheads and ought to shut up and let the men take leadership. She's not alone in this thinking, sadly.

[Arielkay]

Yeah, Church of Christ is really big on that passage. There would be a sermon on it once a month it seemed. Women were reminded to stay silent in church, and why they had to be submissive, and why men had all the leadership positions. Honestly, I believe that church worships Paul more than it does Jesus. Paul said this, Paul said that . . . he was inspired by God. Sure he was. Nevermind he went around murdering Christians not that long before, the scales fell from his eyes! Yeah, whatever.

And the separate but equal crap? I hate that! Like, oh, God has plans for us. We can make the casseroles!

[ThatSnark]

Yes indeed. The Lutheran/Missouri Synod church I grew up in was vocal on this one, too. Certainly no women ministers, but also no women readers, ushers, or leaders of any kind. Even the Sunday School teachers were men. That church absolutely put more credence into Paul's teachings than into what Jesus taught and did.

When I was just post-college and in a Unitarian church, one of the lay ministers there did a series called "Paul's Great Invention," meaning the modern interpretation of Christianity. From the way many church leaders act, it seems Paul has more followers than Jesus ever did. :/

[ThatSnark]

Yeah, Church of Christ is really big on that passage. There would be a sermon on it once a month it seemed. Women were reminded to stay silent in church, and why they had to be submissive, and why men had all the leadership positions. Honestly, I believe that church worships Paul more than it does Jesus. Paul said this, Paul said that . . . he was inspired by God. Sure he was. Nevermind he went around murdering Christians not that long before, the scales fell from his eyes! Yeah, whatever.

And the separate but equal crap? I hate that! Like, oh, God has plans for us. We can make the casseroles!

Right! We're to have the coffee hot in the basement for when the service is over. Otherwise, we're not needed.

[slickcat79]

"Paul" was a misogynist douche. Not surprising that Lori loves what he had to say.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Who the fuck cares what Paul thought? He was a misogynistic jerk who thought the only reason to get married was if you couldn't stop masturbating. "Better to marry than to burn" indeed. He was one of the worst kinds of Christians-- controlling and authoritative.

[itsnikki05]

Yeah, Church of Christ is really big on that passage. There would be a sermon on it once a month it seemed. Women were reminded to stay silent in church, and why they had to be submissive, and why men had all the leadership positions. Honestly, I believe that church worships Paul more than it does Jesus. Paul said this, Paul said that . . . he was inspired by God. Sure he was. Nevermind he went around murdering Christians not that long before, the scales fell from his eyes! Yeah, whatever.

And the separate but equal crap? I hate that! Like, oh, God has plans for us. We can make the casseroles!

Well darn... Nobody is telling us this! ;). I go to Church of Christ

[Hisey]

Funny the way Lori thinks it's OK to re-interpret the word "silent" (ie, women can talk/sing in church but not hold leadership positions) but never reinterprets the the word "submit."

[louisa05]

Well darn... Nobody is telling us this! ;). I go to Church of Christ

There is the United Church of Christ, congregationalist, liberal, mainline and then there is the fundamentalist Church of Christ. The one that many extended family of mine was involved in qualified itself with the words "meets here" on their signs (because the church is the people not the building...).

[kthomp38+]

I attend a Methodist Church now, which allows women ministers, readers, ushers, etc. When we were studying the passage in 1 Corinthians the pastor told us the verse was more about talking when you didn't know what you were talking about. The women in these churches had usually not become as educated about God as quickly as the men ( I don't remember why) and the reason that Paul wanted them to be silent in church is that they were being disruptive calling out in the service about things they knew nothing about. Has anyone else heard this interpretation.

[MajorMajor]

There is the United Church of Christ, congregationalist, liberal, mainline and then there is the fundamentalist Church of Christ. The one that many extended family of mine was involved in qualified itself with the words "meets here" on their signs (because the church is the people not the building...).

You mean the church (little c) of Christ. Because the church isn't important enough to be capitalized like Christ. I grew up in a church of Christ so conservative that we looked down on other churches of Christ as being backslidden for such offenses as women teaching bible studies, passing communion plates, allowing hand clapping, or using NIV bibles. I left when I was told that I had to run all my ideas for the youth program (which the ministers daughter and I basically did everything for) through an uninvolved man. Presumably because women shouldn't make decisions.

[Pam]

I attend a Methodist Church now, which allows women ministers, readers, ushers, etc. When we were studying the passage in 1 Corinthians the pastor told us the verse was more about talking when you didn't know what you were talking about. The women in these churches had usually not become as educated about God as quickly as the men ( I don't remember why) and the reason that Paul wanted them to be silent in church is that they were being disruptive calling out in the service about things they knew nothing about. Has anyone else heard this interpretation.

Yes, I have heard interpretations that fall more in line with what your pastor told you about that verse than it being an eternal ban on women speaking in church. I have been reading some books that render what Paul said in quite a different light than the "commands to women" that have been commonly preached.

[SpeakNow]

Yes, I have heard interpretations that fall more in line with what your pastor told you about that verse than it being an eternal ban on women speaking in church. I have been reading some books that render what Paul said in quite a different light than the "commands to women" that have been commonly preached.

What books? I'd love to read more about that!

[salex]

I attend a Methodist Church now, which allows women ministers, readers, ushers, etc. When we were studying the passage in 1 Corinthians the pastor told us the verse was more about talking when you didn't know what you were talking about. The women in these churches had usually not become as educated about God as quickly as the men ( I don't remember why) and the reason that Paul wanted them to be silent in church is that they were being disruptive calling out in the service about things they knew nothing about. Has anyone else heard this interpretation.

Yes. also a Methodist but also went to a liberal Presbyterian church, and know American Baptists (vs southern) who also believe this. I think the quaker churches near our home when I was a kid also had women ministers. I would never attend a church that disallowed women ministers. As with the men, some are good, some aren't, but it has nothing to do with their being women.

[GeoBQn]

I've read that Biblical scholars think the verse about women being silent in churches was likely added centuries after the rest of the text was written.

[lizziesmom]

I've read that Biblical scholars think the verse about women being silent in churches was likely added centuries after the rest of the text was written.

I read a book about 8 years ago called "What Paul Really Said About Women". In it, the author makes the argument that Paul's words meant something totally different in the original greek. When it was translated, the meaning was skewed to subordinate women keeping in pace with the political climate of the times.

[Arete]

Yes. also a Methodist but also went to a liberal Presbyterian church, and know American Baptists (vs southern) who also believe this. I think the quaker churches near our home when I was a kid also had women ministers. I would never attend a church that disallowed women ministers. As with the men, some are good, some aren't, but it has nothing to do with their being women.

The interpretation I have heard in the Greek Orthodox Church was that there was a very specific problem in the church community of Corinth, that some believe had to do with a community of pagans where women held leadership positions trying to effect some type of fusion belief between the practices of their temples in Corinth and the practices of the followers of Jesus. This has never been understood by the Eastern Orthodox to be a blanket ban on all women speaking in all churches, but was thought to be Paul addressing a particular problem in the community at Corinth.

You cannot rip the letters of Paul out of the social context they were written in.

[GeoBQn]

Saw this in the comments:

Beth

Praise the Lord! I'm glad to hear that there are people out there that are being faithful to the difficult commands and teachings! It is worth it to do it God's way! I think that covering our heads has a much bigger reward than we could ever imagine. Now let's mention a few...

1. You're not going to find someone that is very immodest that is wearing a head covering. The head covering comes off first.

2. I think that you are not going to find divorce in a relationship where the wife has her head covered. Unless the woman takes off her head covering, and fights for her independent wishes, that is. I know that there are people that cover their heads that are not born again, and they may not have a good marriage; but they still have benefits from being covered. (Merely being covered doesn't save them.) Some day we are going to find out all the unseen realities of what God had in mind and understand what we may not understand now as far as why we are commanded certain things that seem illogical to us now.

This woman should look up Tabby's story.

[Pam]

What books? I'd love to read more about that!

Here are some:

"What Paul Really Said About Women"

"What's With Paul and Women? Unlocking the Cultural Background to 1 Tim 2"

"Man and Woman, One in Christ: An Exegetical and Theological Study of Paul's Letters"

"Beyond Sex Roles: What the Bible Says about a Woman's Place in Church and Family"

"The Fall of Patriarchy: Its Broken Legacy Judged by Jesus & the Apostolic House Church Communities"

The interpretation I have heard in the Greek Orthodox Church was that there was a very specific problem in the church community of Corinth, that some believe had to do with a community of pagans where women held leadership positions trying to effect some type of fusion belief between the practices of their temples in Corinth and the practices of the followers of Jesus. This has never been understood by the Eastern Orthodox to be a blanket ban on all women speaking in all churches, but was thought to be Paul addressing a particular problem in the community at Corinth.

You cannot rip the letters of Paul out of the social context they were written in.

What I have bolded: Exactly! And that is what most, if not all, of those books that I mentioned bring to the table. Paul wrote letters that were designed to help deal with issues that were occurring in the fledgling Christ-centered churches in those specific regions to which/about which he wrote. He was not issuing commands (and nor were they commands from God), that were to be observed by all people for all time. Take what he says at the end of the passage about head coverings, "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."...if anyone wants to argue about this head covered/not covered while praying and prophesying, hey, we're just trying to show respect for one of your customs, it's not something that is a universal ordinance.

But that is all "feminist revisionist history" and "feminist drivel", or so I have been told :lol:

[AtroposHeart]

Lori Paul is was full of bullshit about women, like the rest of the Bible and you.

[docmom]

It is generally accepted outside of fundie circles that Paul did not write I or II Timothy or Titus. Rather they were written by a 1st or 2nd century Christian. It always interests me that something that has been accepted since Victorian times (late 19th century) is the basis for essentially all of the fundie teaching on women.

Collins, Raymond F. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus: A Commentary. Westminster John Knox Press. 2004.