Oh, The Horror! Stacy on IMMODESTLY DRESSED WOMEN

[Soulhuntress]

Fundiefugee,

I think you are on to something. I have read of Stacy's childhood and the lack of love that was given to her. Her 20's were not good to her either, and I think she is clinging to Calvinism because of that. Calvinism basically says all humans are totally and utterly worthless, and she sees herself that way.

A good therapist could help her if she would let them, but we all know she won't.

I have both her books and now that I know her story, I can see her hatred for not only others, but herself as well.

You cannot love others if you don't first love yourself. Stacy McDonald HATES herself from all indication.

A bit of information from the dark side (our cookies are delicious). Stacy is a sick woman and she wants a sick abusive church and had to go microdenominational for that. A decent Reformed church knows "depravity" and abusive women like her are depraved. And Jimmy would be in front of session or presbytery but NOT as a ministry candidate. Adultery and abuse are NOT acceptable and are deal breakers for a minister. Part of our presbytery's JOB is to protect the minister from the church and the church from the minister. :shock:

[AtroposHeart]

From what I've seen from my fundie female relatives is that women who are all about modesty are extreamly catty.

I find that frustrates them is a women who doesn't care about what men think at all and don't feel ashamed of their bodies

[Want More Babies]

A bit of information from the dark side (our cookies are delicious). Stacy is a sick woman and she wants a sick abusive church and had to go microdenominational for that. A decent Reformed church knows "depravity" and abusive women like her are depraved. And Jimmy would be in front of session or presbytery but NOT as a ministry candidate. Adultery and abuse are NOT acceptable and are deal breakers for a minister. Part of our presbytery's JOB is to protect the minister from the church and the church from the minister. :shock:

I knew of James' adultery (which is probably why Stacy wants every.single.female around him to be MODEST) but not of any physical abuse. Is this since his marriage to Stacy or the one to his oldest four children's mother? Was he just abusive to his wife, the children, or anyone/everyone who crossed his path? I can see how Stacy would feel "loved" by being in an abusive relationship. To her love=abuse.

[fundifugee]

A bit of information from the dark side (our cookies are delicious). Stacy is a sick woman and she wants a sick abusive church and had to go microdenominational for that. A decent Reformed church knows "depravity" and abusive women like her are depraved. And Jimmy would be in front of session or presbytery but NOT as a ministry candidate. Adultery and abuse are NOT acceptable and are deal breakers for a minister. Part of our presbytery's JOB is to protect the minister from the church and the church from the minister. :shock:

Why do you say Stacey is abusive?

[Soulhuntress]

I knew of James' adultery (which is probably why Stacy wants every.single.female around him to be MODEST) but not of any physical abuse. Is this since his marriage to Stacy or the one to his oldest four children's mother? Was he just abusive to his wife, the children, or anyone/everyone who crossed his path? I can see how Stacy would feel "loved" by being in an abusive relationship. To her love=abuse.

I would say emotional abuse and conditional love and friendship describe these two. She strikes me as a bully and church bullies infuriate me. Thus my rather disproportionate response. Abuse comes in many forms and IMNSHO emotional abuse is the worst. Jimmy getting tossed out of the RPCGA is a red flag.

[O Latin]

I would totally wear one of those modest swimsuits from the previous page. They look normal enough that they don't scream "Look at me! I'm wearing a modest swimsuit!" but they're still covered up. I don't understand bikinis. I don't wear the equivalent of a bra and panties any other time, so why would I just because I'm going swimming? I don't care if other people want to wear them, but they make me feel like I'm having one of those "went to school wearing only my underwear" dreams.

I'm sure I would be considered a horrible stumbling block by fundie standards, but by most people's standards, I dress pretty modestly. I don't wear shorts or sleeveless tops or show much cleavage. It's just my own personal comfort level. If some dude wants to stare at me, he can go ahead and stare. As one of my professors likes to say, "That's a you problem."

I would like to second the Leggings Are Not Pants sentiment and also add that gym clothes are for when your at the gym or out jogging or whatever, not for wearing all day long. I will give you a pass if you stopped at the grocery store for a couple quick things on your way home from the gym and you just didn't feel like changing, but I've lost count of the number of girls I go to school with who seem to own nothing but workout gear. What's especially funny is that the one day out of every twenty when they do wear real clothes it always seems like they're wearing expensive brand name jeans that cost $150 a pair, and I'm thinking, "damn, if I had clothes that nice I would never take them off."

[Patsy]

Jeans are for hard industrial work, particuarly where burns are possible ;) I've never done that in my LIFE but I still wear jeans.

I do think sweat-pants and workout clothes do look kind of gross, though...

[O Latin]

Jeans are for hard industrial work, particuarly where burns are possible ;) I've never done that in my LIFE but I still wear jeans.

I do think sweat-pants and workout clothes do look kind of gross, though...

That's fair. Clothes do evolve in purpose and appropriateness. I still maintain that entire workout ensembles are not appropriate for non-workout activities.

[Austin]

I often did my supermarket shopping on the way home from Pilates or time at the gym. I was appropriately covered (I don't work out in just a shorts bra and little shorts - ha!), but it certainly did involve those bicycle shorts/compression leggings and a gym-type top and tennis shoes. Whatever.

It people can wear their damn pajamas to the supermarket, I certainly don't see what's wrong with running a few errands after the gym in workout clothes. Can we be any more uptight?

[AnnoDomini]

I'd like to wear two-pieces or even *gasp* a bikini, because I like feeling the sun on my skin. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever feel right about exposing that much of my body in public--too many years of fundamentalist upbringing convincing me of the virtues of modesty.

Modesty rules in my house go something like this:

no skirts above the knee

shorts must come halfway down the thighs

no backless, strapless tops or any tops that don't completely cover the bra (spaghetti straps are frowned upon)

no cleavage showing

if you bend over you must press your shirt to your chest so no one can see down it

slips should be worn under skirts/dresses that might show the silhouette of your legs if looked at with a bright light behind it

no tight pants or form-hugging clothing of any kind

slogans on t-shirts frowned upon, as that calls attention to my (not insignificant) bosom

I'm not in a frumper yet, but my mother and I do NOT see eye to eye on what I should wear. She sent me a link to the Rebelution Modesty Survey. http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/

[snarkykitty]

My mother is on a rant because Michelle Obama is photographed wearing sleeveless shirts, and now she's started to notice that newscasters are wearing sleeveless shirts.

We all have arms. What is the big freaking deal? Get over it! Then again, my mother has been wearing the same polyester elastic-waisted pants and "mom" shirts since she was 30 and has no idea on how to dress her body.

[debrand]

I'd like to wear two-pieces or even *gasp* a bikini, because I like feeling the sun on my skin. Unfortunately I don't think I'll ever feel right about exposing that much of my body in public--too many years of fundamentalist upbringing convincing me of the virtues of modesty.

Modesty rules in my house go something like this:

no skirts above the knee

shorts must come halfway down the thighs

no backless, strapless tops or any tops that don't completely cover the bra (spaghetti straps are frowned upon)

no cleavage showing

if you bend over you must press your shirt to your chest so no one can see down it

slips should be worn under skirts/dresses that might show the silhouette of your legs if looked at with a bright light behind it

no tight pants or form-hugging clothing of any kind

slogans on t-shirts frowned upon, as that calls attention to my (not insignificant) bosom

I'm not in a frumper yet, but my mother and I do NOT see eye to eye on what I should wear. She sent me a link to the Rebelution Modesty Survey. http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/

YOu probably shouldn't ask this because it might lead to more strict rules but why can your shorts be mid thigh length and not your skirts?

Those rules sound fine for a younger adolescent but you're 25. You should be able to pick your own clothing.

[Maggie Mae]

I really don't care if people wear workout pants and a tee shirt to the supermarket. In fact, what other people wear doesn't affect me one way or another. If someone wanted to shop in their birthday suit, I might think it's odd and wonder how they aren't frozen, but i doubt it would bother me. It's a grocery store. It's dirty, like everything else where hundreds of people go every day, and it's a place to go give someone money and they give you food and shampoo. Does it matter if someone is wearing a tailored suit or a swimsuit? No. It does not affect you in the least.

However, I fully support child free grocery stores. Screaming children and children playing tag does affect me. it affects me when I walk into the middle of their throw stuff at each other fight, and it affects my shopping experience when I have to listen to a child screaming "GET ME OUT OF HERE" repeatedly until it's "mother" lets it out of the cart so it can create havoc by spinning around and running into people. I don't find this behavior enduring or cute. It makes me hate all children, which probably isn't fair, but after 10 minutes in a grocery, i'm usually fearing for the future of humanity.

[AnnoDomini]

YOu probably shouldn't ask this because it might lead to more strict rules but why can your shorts be mid thigh length and not your skirts?

Those rules sound fine for a younger adolescent but you're 25. You should be able to pick your own clothing.

It's because the shorts clearly cannot 'ride up' and show things if you bend over. And the tricky thing about these rules is, mymother says I'm of the age where I can make my own decisions, but if I make one significantly outside her prescribed 'modesty' rules, she pressures me to change, citing 'being a good example to the little girls' who are already huge on modesty (when we watch Project Runway, they hate all the backless gowns, and they insist on privacy when they change. They're 8 and 5).

The funny thing is, she pressures my older sister LESS. She doesn't bug her when she wears lacy see-through shirts with hot pink bras underneath. My mother has indicated that it's because I'm more likely to be considered attractive by more men. I am not thin, but I am thinner than my sister (and my mother). Aside from my sister, I am the thinnest woman in the family and always have been, and I had no other women in my daily life.

[Koala]

It's because the shorts clearly cannot 'ride up' and show things if you bend over. And the tricky thing about these rules is, mymother says I'm of the age where I can make my own decisions, but if I make one significantly outside her prescribed 'modesty' rules, she pressures me to change, citing 'being a good example to the little girls' who are already huge on modesty (when we watch Project Runway, they hate all the backless gowns, and they insist on privacy when they change. They're 8 and 5).

The funny thing is, she pressures my older sister LESS. She doesn't bug her when she wears lacy see-through shirts with hot pink bras underneath. My mother has indicated that it's because I'm more likely to be considered attractive by more men. I am not thin, but I am thinner than my sister (and my mother). Aside from my sister, I am the thinnest woman in the family and always have been, and I had no other women in my daily life.

Try to ignore her. You're a grown woman, and more than old enough to make your own clothing choices.

[AnnoDomini]

I DO care, though, about setting a good example.

[AnnoDomini]

Every so often I go back to the modesty survey. There's one question, under 'open questions' that reads 'modesty is an important quality for your future wife to have'. Some of the guys' responses makes me SO MAD. Many say they refuse to consider a girl who 'is immodest in dress or speech' (whatever speech means). Talk about totally judging a book by its cover! And how are we supposed to know what they consider 'modest'? Following all my mother's rules (not so bad)? Wearing only frumpers? Keeping a headcovering?

[antifundie]

Set a good example for your sisters by being strong and independent. Do you want them to suffer like you have? No.

If your mom has an issue with they way you dress, tell her you're following your own standard for modesty, and end the conversation.

And, so what about your older sister! Your little sisters need to see a woman who can stand up to your mother. Be a role model by thinking and choosing for yourself what you feel is comfortable and appropriate for your body and your life.

[Austin]

Try to ignore her. You're a grown woman, and more than old enough to make your own clothing choices.

Better yet - move out! It's time. This life you're leading is seriously hurting you.

And I'm not normally a person who thinks all kids should get out of the house when they're 18. I have a 21-year-old and two 18-year-olds and they can stay as long as they're going to school and need our support. But they are adults and we do not try to direct their activities, tell them what to wear (sometimes I might say, "zip your fly" - lol), where to go, who to be with, anything about church (they all attend regularly - I do not). I realize you love your parents, but you will never have a life of your own if you stay where you're at.

I DO care, though, about setting a good example.

That's fine to care, but you're not their mother. Let your mother set the example that she feels is necessary. And it doesn't sound like you're wanting to make the switch from prairie dresses to tube tops. It sounds like you want to wear normal, age-appropriate clothing. If you don't start leading your own life now, when?

[Witsec6]

Every so often I go back to the modesty survey. There's one question, under 'open questions' that reads 'modesty is an important quality for your future wife to have'. Some of the guys' responses makes me SO MAD. Many say they refuse to consider a girl who 'is immodest in dress or speech' (whatever speech means). Talk about totally judging a book by its cover! And how are we supposed to know what they consider 'modest'? Following all my mother's rules (not so bad)? Wearing only frumpers? Keeping a headcovering?

You don't want to be married to a man who thinks this way. Trust me. If you don't believe it, look around FJ and see some of the women (*cough*Teri*cough*) who are stuck with this bullshit (there's some immodest speech for you).

There are plenty of guys out there who love women who are fat, dress "slutty", and swear like sailors. Be yourself, and the love you get will be so much easier to take.

[AnnoDomini]

My concern is that the only men who share my fundamental beliefs (I cannot marry someone who doesn't share them) will also come with beliefs that I DON'T want, not to mention won't want to, um, do what I want in bed.

[Olivia]

My concern is that the only men who share my fundamental beliefs (I cannot marry someone who doesn't share them) will also come with beliefs that I DON'T want, not to mention won't want to, um, do what I want in bed.

Can I just say marrying outside your fundie beliefs is not the end of the world? You and your future husband don't have to agree on everything if your relationship is respectful and egalitarian. My husband and I respect each other's differing worldviews, and we were able to cobble together an agreement on how we'd raise our kids before we were married. I don't get the need for 100% agreement between spouses -- whether it's fundies or liberal vegetarians suggesting it -- it makes either their beliefs or their relationships sound weak to me.

[Koala]

Set a good example for your sisters by being strong and independent. Do you want them to suffer like you have? No.

If your mom has an issue with they way you dress, tell her you're following your own standard for modesty, and end the conversation.

And, so what about your older sister! Your little sisters need to see a woman who can stand up to your mother. Be a role model by thinking and choosing for yourself what you feel is comfortable and appropriate for your body and your life.

Well said. And I second Austin that this might be a good time to consider to moving out on your own.

[fundyfunland]

Can I just say marrying outside your fundie beliefs is not the end of the world? You and your future husband don't have to agree on everything if your relationship is respectful and egalitarian. My husband and I respect each other's differing worldviews, and we were able to cobble together an agreement on how we'd raise our kids before we were married. I don't get the need for 100% agreement between spouses -- whether it's fundies or liberal vegetarians suggesting it -- it makes either their beliefs or their relationships sound weak to me.

Totally agree with what Olivia is saying. Marrying someone who completely agrees with you (or you them) will not allow either one of you to question each other, and push each other to grow IMHO.

Also, remember, marriage is actually an OPTION. You do not have to be married to lead a good life. If you don't find someone compatible with you and your standards, then by all means, don't get married.

[bea]

However, I fully support child free grocery stores. Screaming children and children playing tag does affect me. it affects me when I walk into the middle of their throw stuff at each other fight, and it affects my shopping experience when I have to listen to a child screaming "GET ME OUT OF HERE" repeatedly until it's "mother" lets it out of the cart so it can create havoc by spinning around and running into people. I don't find this behavior enduring or cute. It makes me hate all children, which probably isn't fair, but after 10 minutes in a grocery, i'm usually fearing for the future of humanity.

I agree that kids shouldn't be allowed to run wild in the grocery store, but that's the one place I have to go regardless of my kids feelings on the matter. Meltdowns are almost inevitable, because it's a boring place to be. My goal is to get in, shop fast, stick to my budget, and get out.

I shouldn't take this personally, I know, but a grocery store is not anyone's favorite place to be. I don't think parents are thinking their kids are cute and/or endearing; they're just trying to get through a grocery run without totally losing their shit and screaming at their kids in public. Babysitting around here for two kids runs $15.00. I can't afford to have someone babysit while I run to the store, so the kids have to come. If they throw a fit, I still have to get groceries, I just grit my teeth and do the best I can.