Debt-free homes

[2xx1xy1JD]

The thing is that of all the debt you can accrue in a lifetime, a mortgage is one of the saner forms. In the US, where interest on mortgage payments continues to be tax deductable, it can actually be more cost effective to have a mortgage than to own outright. Having a mortgage can also allow you accumulate a great deal of wealth that you couldn't accumulate any other way. Our first home was bought for $180K with $30k down and the rest mortgaged. Four years later we sold it for for $350K. Now granted, this was at the height of the housing bubble, but over time, real estate is usually a good investment. There's certainly no other way we could have made that type of money for that outlay in 4 years.

Oh, I agree that mortgage debt or business financing, used properly, can be part of a sound financial plan.

If you have the other elements of fundie financials though, like early marriage and tons of kids and no useful education, but do allow debt, then you can get into some bad financial situations. This happens in some ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities - debt gets used for cash flow, there is no realistic plan to pay it off, and it funds a lifestyle that is simply not afforable (like living in high-cost areas like New York). If you can't afford a lifestyle, you can't afford a lifestyle + interest payments.

[bananacat]

I think a lot of fundies have this fantasy of living an old-fashioned farm life, obviously with no real idea what that entails. They want their sons to buy property in a dirt cheap area, likely to be extremely isolated which reinforces the religious indoctrination, and then build a house on the land with his own hands, find a suitable bride, have a bunch of kids, and all of them spend every day praying and working on the farm. It never actually works out that way, but that's their ideal vision.

[JMarie]

Well, look on page 8 to see one example of debt-free living:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/199 ... ctober.pdf

If you don't spend money on extras like electricity, running water or medical care.....

So the ideal start to a new marriage is living in a shed??

[Jana814]

I think a lot of fundies have this fantasy of living an old-fashioned farm life, obviously with no real idea what that entails. They want their sons to buy property in a dirt cheap area, likely to be extremely isolated which reinforces the religious indoctrination, and then build a house on the land with his own hands, find a suitable bride, have a bunch of kids, and all of them spend every day praying and working on the farm. It never actually works out that way, but that's their ideal vision.

Well said!! & I agree!

[wild little fox]

What gets me is the lack of basic needs for their children :(

Want to live in an off-grid cabin in the woods? Fantastic! But you need to make damn sure your children's needs are being met. It can be done. If not, then a cat would be better off raising the children!

What got me about the article in the PDF was the fact they saw no reason to seek emergency help when their child stopped breathing! :banging head on wall:

[sunshine]

I agree that their system is completely unsustainable. I'd love to know what the financial arrangements are for Josh Duggar's housing in the DC burbs. And what the housing plans are for Zach Bates & Chad Payne. We know that Chad has been fixing up a decrepit cottage on his family's property. I have no idea what Zach will do. The Bates own several acres, I think, and he could build a place--but he better start now. Or perhaps put a trailer on it?

[in defense of trailers, they can be quite nice. Better to live in a trailer you can afford than in a McMansion you can't]

He is probably renting with the option to improve the property, but he did sell his business so maybe he has more than expected. Or, the FRC could have property for its newly employee to use.

Side note: the FRC does not pay their summer interns hardly anything. $200 a week, please. A hooker can earn more.

[socalrules]

I get the idea that living debt-free is ideal but it is really unrealistic. Most people will carry some type of debt, even if its revolving. A lot are stuck with student loans. I pay $700 a month in student loans and will pay around that for the next 26 years. Its a lot but my salary is way higher than the alternative and cheaper schools were not a viable option. For me, its a worthwhile debt that has and will likely to continue to pay off.

I don't think carrying a mortgage is so bad. Better to be paying a mortgage than rent. I think for a lot of these fundies, they would never qualify for a mortgage because they cannot even prove a steady income. Most who have their own businesses are probably barely making it at most. Look at the Bates, the tree trimming business isn't enough to pay the bills so Lawson has to help out. They likely purchased their property when it was super cheap and they could actually afford it. Also, I think most of the fundies likely have mortgages and credit card debt. If living debt free was so easy a fundy could do it, everyone would be debt free.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What's wrong with this lovely house you can buy and move off to whenever you'd like to park it? (there's this little issue of the house being an unremediated grow-op, but surely you can fix that if you're Godly enough!)

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.a ... -374111765

The No Greater Joy article :angry-banghead: so money is dirty, and you should have as little of it as possible, and being out where people can see you is frowned upon, so just sit in your shack in the back of beyond, with no electricity and cooking on a camping stove, and that's your ticket to heaven?

Just keep it a grow op! Home business question SOLVED!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't think carrying a mortgage is so bad. Better to be paying a mortgage than rent.

On a more serious note, I came in here to post this myself - unless you have somewhere you can live for FREE, then taking out a small mortgage is often a wise thing to do.

Obviously not everyone is even able to afford to do that, and it does depend a lot on your location - but in plenty of not so "cool" small cities across the US, you can find places where mortgages are comparable to rent, if you're modest about it and have any kind of steady income (okay, maybe that disqualifies a lot of the fundies).

Just saying, most financial advice even of the "debt free is the best way to be" variety makes an exemption for (small and reasonable!) mortgages, because yeah, you gotta pay for a roof ANYWAY. This way you can pay your "rent" and "save for the house" at the same time, y'know?

[silverspoons]

I bet the next wave of quiverfull young men will live at home longer. They will work from 16-26, 10 years and save 100k toward a home. They will either marry someone a few years younger or even if they marry a 25 year old they will still be able t have the 6 kids they "need".

I think we will see more trailer living while building (like polygamist). Buy a piece of cheap land and a used single/double wide and take 5 or so years to build a home or get a better double/triple wide. Aren't Anna's parents more the norm in the double wide, then the Duggars in the TTT?

Mr Spoons and I are debt free but hate where we live(not the home, just the area). I would take a small or even medium mortgage in a more diverse city with more options for us.

[Savoring Samsara]

On a more serious note, I came in here to post this myself - unless you have somewhere you can live for FREE, then taking out a small mortgage is often a wise thing to do.

Obviously not everyone is even able to afford to do that, and it does depend a lot on your location - but in plenty of not so "cool" small cities across the US, you can find places where mortgages are comparable to rent, if you're modest about it and have any kind of steady income (okay, maybe that disqualifies a lot of the fundies).

Just saying, most financial advice even of the "debt free is the best way to be" variety makes an exemption for (small and reasonable!) mortgages, because yeah, you gotta pay for a roof ANYWAY. This way you can pay your "rent" and "save for the house" at the same time, y'know?

When my husband and I bought our house, we were told that ideally your mortgage (leaving aside taxes, insurance, etc.) should be less than you would pay for rent on a comparable property. Plus a mortgage builds your credit history in a way that renting does not (presuming that you actually pay the thing, of course).

[Buzzard]

Not all debt is "bad debt." I totally agree that mortgages are a good thing. I also am paying about the same now to OWN my home vs what I was paying to rent an apartment 6 years ago. I could never have bought the house outright, even now, 6 years later.

I'm also not opposed to certain car loans. Many dealers are offering 0% APRs on the 2013 models. If I can earn ANY interest keeping that money in a bank or, god forbid, a mutual fund, I get the car and keep the money. Sometimes loans are an investment themselves.

[scc12]

Does ATI even accept families who have good debt,like mortgages, car payments,or (heaven forbid) student loans? Am guessing they want them paid off bf allowing them into ATI,if at all?

[ILoveJellybeans]

Student loans?

If you can read you are too educated for ATI.

[lilwriter85]

Does ATI even accept families who have good debt,like mortgages, car payments,or (heaven forbid) student loans? Am guessing they want them paid off bf allowing them into ATI,if at all?

They probably don't accept good debt at all. I get an anti-college vibe from ATI and I can't picture Boob being ok with his sons taking out student loans, mortgages, or car payments. I suspect that Duggars get a discount from CollegeMinus and that is why Boob has the kids involved in that. Boob goes on and on about being a Razorbacks fan, but we all know he wouldn't co-sign a loan for a Duggar boy to go to University of Arkansas.

When it comes to student loan debt, people have to be smart about it. I had a hard time sympathizing with the Cortney Munna debt story. In short, Cortney Munna is an NYU alum who graduated with close to $100,000 in debt. She came from a middle class home and her mother was widowed. I remember reading her story and wondering if she ever took in her family's financial state into consideration before she went to NYU and later took out loans. It bugged me because a few friends of mine who had single or widowed parents really considered a lot of things before they chose where they went to college. They all choose good state schools and none of them would ever considered going to an expensive private college. I read Cortney's story when it first came out and people on different sites pretty much bashed her. There were people who admitted to have student loan debt their debts were a lot less than 100 k.

[bananacat]

I get the idea that living debt-free is ideal but it is really unrealistic. Most people will carry some type of debt, even if its revolving. A lot are stuck with student loans. I pay $700 a month in student loans and will pay around that for the next 26 years. Its a lot but my salary is way higher than the alternative and cheaper schools were not a viable option. For me, its a worthwhile debt that has and will likely to continue to pay off.

I don't think carrying a mortgage is so bad. Better to be paying a mortgage than rent. I think for a lot of these fundies, they would never qualify for a mortgage because they cannot even prove a steady income. Most who have their own businesses are probably barely making it at most. Look at the Bates, the tree trimming business isn't enough to pay the bills so Lawson has to help out. They likely purchased their property when it was super cheap and they could actually afford it. Also, I think most of the fundies likely have mortgages and credit card debt. If living debt free was so easy a fundy could do it, everyone would be debt free.

Debt isn't bad. It isn't good either. It's a tool that is useful in some cases and detrimental in others. But we all know that fundies aren't good with complexity and want everything to be black-and-white. You're right too that many fundies could never qualify for a mortgage, so maybe that's another reason they are so gung-ho about debt free - they get to pretend they're superior for not getting something they couldn't get anyway.

[ADoyle90815]

I get the idea that living debt-free is ideal but it is really unrealistic. Most people will carry some type of debt, even if its revolving. A lot are stuck with student loans. I pay $700 a month in student loans and will pay around that for the next 26 years. Its a lot but my salary is way higher than the alternative and cheaper schools were not a viable option. For me, its a worthwhile debt that has and will likely to continue to pay off.

I don't think carrying a mortgage is so bad. Better to be paying a mortgage than rent. I think for a lot of these fundies, they would never qualify for a mortgage because they cannot even prove a steady income. Most who have their own businesses are probably barely making it at most. Look at the Bates, the tree trimming business isn't enough to pay the bills so Lawson has to help out. They likely purchased their property when it was super cheap and they could actually afford it. Also, I think most of the fundies likely have mortgages and credit card debt. If living debt free was so easy a fundy could do it, everyone would be debt free.

I also think having a mortgage and paying it on time is a good thing as it builds up credit and in the long run, the home becomes an investment. Of course, one thing going against the QF type of fundies is that they keep having children they really couldn't support on a single income, or with a struggling business. The Duggars are not the norm, and if the TLC gravy train stopped, they would once again be struggling to feed all those children, and Smuggar especially will find that he actually has to do work in order to feed his family.

If fundies are part of churches that force people to give 10% of their income as tithing, they have even less income, and if something did happen to the breadwinner, often those churches would be reluctant to help them out, even if they had been paying their tithing as required.

[lilwriter85]

The TLC gravy train will end completely at some point for the Duggars. I think Boob has been socking away money, but despite that there are always chances they might encounter financial problems in the future. Boob, Mullett, or some of the kids could end up with health problems or other things might happen could bring financial problems to the Duggars. Boob will likely set up some of the boys with businesses, but I predict some of the businesses will not be successful.

[lizziesmom]

I have a question? Does Jim Boob tithe 10 percent of his income to himself since they 'home church' as well?

[ILoveJellybeans]

I presumed that people who homechurch would give it to Gothard?

[fakepigtails73]

Well, look on page 8 to see one example of debt-free living:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/199 ... ctober.pdf

If you don't spend money on extras like electricity, running water or medical care.....

Did anyone notice the "ad" on page 9 of that October 1997 NGJ newsletter? It says that some american fundie man completed his ESL teaching certificate and will begin to teach english in Laos. It then states that Laos is closed to missionaries (aka "no proselitizing, m'kay??") but no, this douchecanoe will teach ESL with, ahum, the King James bible as main manual. I have no love for communists but I (almost) wish that he'd get caught and got to serve a little bit of time in a light work camp with no bibles allowed, only socialists and commie thinkers's works blasted through his cell in english...

If that this missionary did is not hypocrisy and disobeing an authority, what is it then?? :think: Gotta love the Pearls and others like them they think that rules only apply to others... :angry-banghead:

[scc12]

I have a question? Does Jim Boob tithe 10 percent of his income to himself since they 'home church' as well?

that would be interesting to know.

I've always wondered if the reason they home church to begin with is not just to keep away from the general public,but so they don't have to give up 10% of their income as well.

[jenny_islander]

All the debt-free family homes I've ever heard of fall into two categories:

1. Big piece of property with a nasty old trailer, tumbledown shack, etc., that isn't fit for a chicken coop much less a place for children to sleep in. Never gets fixed up, although one parent (generally Dad) often gets a nice truck, a shop with all the bells and whistles, etc. Sometimes the headship proudly starts building a big new house elsewhere on the land; when it starts to feel too much like work, he either leaves it for the termites or makes the family live in the unfinished house.

2. Big house on smaller lot that goes for cheap because it's in serious need of TLC. If the buyer isn't a lazybutt, this kind of property ends up costing just as much in repairs and retrofitting as it would have cost for a mortgage on a nice new house. The up side of a purchase like this is that the family can end up with exactly the house they want.

[alchemy]

I had a half-baked thought last night while watching news of Detroit's problems; could you imagine a bunch of fundies swooping in and taking over a portion of the city. Houses are dirt cheap so they could do it on a budget. It could transform the city (not necessarily in a good way though).

[Handmaiden of Dog]

The TLC gravy train will end completely at some point for the Duggars. I think Boob has been socking away money, but despite that there are always chances they might encounter financial problems in the future. Boob, Mullett, or some of the kids could end up with health problems or other things might happen could bring financial problems to the Duggars. Boob will likely set up some of the boys with businesses, but I predict some of the businesses will not be successful.

I can't get over how (seemingly) healthy their family appears to be when you consider their attitude towards safety precautions and healthy eating. Aside from Josie nobody else has had any issues requiring hospitalization or on-going treatment that I know of aside from the infamous orchestra pit fall. It seems like every family I know of personally has had something: diabetes, MS, breast cancer, heart problems, epilepsy, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, carpel tunnel, Epstein-Barre. narcolepsy, this is just a sampling of the major illnesses that my friends and relations have. I, myself, have to have major surgery this fall due to a genetic problem. Do I just happen to know sick people or are the Duggars incredibly lucky? I keep expecting to hear that one of their kids has badly hurt themselves because they were not wearing proper shoes or helmets or seatbelts. Plus, Mullet and Boob are getting older and I would not be surprised to hear of one or the other getting treated for cancer or heart disease.