Debt-free homes

[YPestis]

One of the cornerstone of the fundie/quiverful movement is debt-free living. The issue is, how does one do that when each male child is to marry young and father a large brood quickly? In some of these households, the male fundie is even discouraged from higher education. That can narrow a young man's earning potential unless he has particular skills. A young man can be a saver, a hard worker and a smartie, but still fail to save up that $50k (depending on location) to buy even a modest starter home. Plus, with growing families, the demand for larger homes could quickly overtake papa's earning abilities.

I know the Duggars manage to stuff 14 kids into their three bedrooms, but I doubt even many fundies want that in their future. Plus, Jim-Bob was an exception in that he had good business acumen and became financially independent at a young age (i.e he had enough passive income to passably support his growing brood). Anna T's new post on debt-free living reminded me that some fundies do sacrifice to get that debt-free house. However, she's also one that has limited her children to two and admitted her first house was less than ideal. Since most fundies are not going to "make it big", and will look forward to six or eight kids in the future, how will the movement look in 20 years?

I hypothesize that the quiverful movement will have to start making concessions. The debt-free living may turn into some debt living. I think the shame that some feel for not being able to support a large family debt-free may force couples to "secretly" use birth control and chalk it up to "God just didn't bless us with more little ones". I've already seen fundie families gravitating to living in cheap areas of the country. The downside is that jobs may not be plentiful in rural areas. There may also reach a tipping out of how many books and conferences the quiverful movement could support for these fundie families. The future may not take kindly to more Maxwells and Botkin wares. Perhaps these fundies will take a lesson from the Amish and try their hand at carpentry, or pool their resources together. Or perhaps, tired of living hand to mouth and suffering for the "glory of God", the quiverful movement will finally die out. Any thoughts?

[teachergirl]

I was just thinking the same thing...they want them to marry young and pride themselves on their homeschooling, "entreprenurial" spirit but the truth is the successful ones are living off of daddy's coattails. The Botkins, Peter Bradrick, David Brown, Tait Zimmerman off the top of my head. They are benefitting from their father's COLLEGE education. I would love to see any of them actually have to look for a job with their minimal educations, extreme viewpoints and paranoia of the govt. My greatest wish is that just one of them, such as Deanna Coglan Mullins chooses different. That seems to be the only way that we can only hope this movement will die off. They scare me in every possible way.

[salex]

I was just thinking the same thing...they want them to marry young and pride themselves on their homeschooling, "entreprenurial" spirit but the truth is the successful ones are living off of daddy's coattails. The Botkins, Peter Bradrick, David Brown, Tait Zimmerman off the top of my head. They are benefitting from their father's COLLEGE education. I would love to see any of them actually have to look for a job with their minimal educations, extreme viewpoints and paranoia of the govt. My greatest wish is that just one of them, such as Deanna Coglan Mullins chooses different. That seems to be the only way that we can only hope this movement will die off. They scare me in every possible way.

Some of their legacy family businesses may go on a while but-- that is one of the things that becomes obvious through generations--even a successful patriarch has to make sure his own children are equally successful on their own, or the 'trickle down' isn't enough to support all the descendants. However, that is the thing about patriarchs-- despite all their 200 year plans, they are really only in it for themselves. As long as they get to control their wives, children, (and through their children, their grandchildren), followers and make enough noise to keep themselves the center of attention-- they are successes. Whether they believe any of it, or if they just use God as a control mechanism, well, I lean toward theformer eta latter, except for those who think they are on a mission from God and thus even more special that way--or they can more easily excuse their actions.

[apple1]

Disclaimer: It is clear that unbridled debt is not the answer, either.

That said: The quiverfull movement with a gazillion kids and SODRT is unsustainable. It takes actual education and real employment (for most) to make enough money to get by in today's world. The own-your-own-business works for a few, but is far from being the answer for most.

Additional comments: It is highly unlikely that even $50 thousand could purchase anything but a trash heap in my region. I have also noticed that SOME of those who tout debt-freedom exclude (probably wisely) the mortgage. On the other side of it: The wrong (translate: way too high) mortgage can KILL a budget.

[apple1]

...However, that is the thing about patriarchs-- despite all their 200 year plans, they are really only in it for themselves. As long as they get to control their wives, children, (and through their children, their grandchildren), followers and make enough noise to keep themselves the center of attention-- they are successes. Whether they believe any of it, or if they just use God as a control mechanism, well, I lean toward the former, except for those who think they are on a mission from God and thus even more special that way--or they can more easily excuse their actions.

And we all know that nothing controls as strongly as money, never mind the God talk. As long as Daddy holds the purse strings, he runs the show.

[OkToBeTakei]

Disclaimer: It is clear that unbridled debt is not the answer, either.

That said: The quiverfull movement with a gazillion kids and SODRT is unsustainable. It takes actual education and real employment (for most) to make enough money to get by in today's world. The own-your-own-business works for a few, but is far from being the answer for most.

Additional comments: It is highly unlikely that even $50 thousand could purchase anything but a trash heap in my region. I have also noticed that SOME of those who tout debt-freedom exclude (probably wisely) the mortgage. On the other side of it: The wrong (translate: way too high) mortgage can KILL a budget.

That might get you one room in a house in my area :lol:

[salex]

Edited to add... and when I say "former" I mean Latter, LOL... not sure they believe any of it--but apparently I can't write a sentence!)

And we all know that nothing controls as strongly as money, never mind the God talk. As long as Daddy holds the purse strings, he runs the show.

[teachergirl]

Yes to all of this....the thing that scares me is that it seems that none of them seem to break free. Look at the Bradrick family...almost every single one is following the party line with lots of children. I wonder if we will see the cracks when their children are older....I suppose as long as you have the sheep buying your products and coming to your conferences that there will always be something to support them. I read a lot of blogs, for some truly scary reading about what this movement does to people check out Growing Home and I love my Large Family pages on FB. Jacinda herself is nuts but some of her readers are in truly sad situations due to this movement.

[HereticHick]

I agree that their system is completely unsustainable. I'd love to know what the financial arrangements are for Josh Duggar's housing in the DC burbs. And what the housing plans are for Zach Bates & Chad Payne. We know that Chad has been fixing up a decrepit cottage on his family's property. I have no idea what Zach will do. The Bates own several acres, I think, and he could build a place--but he better start now. Or perhaps put a trailer on it?

[in defense of trailers, they can be quite nice. Better to live in a trailer you can afford than in a McMansion you can't]

[2xx1xy1JD]

Having a zillion kids with only one parent working, having kids really young and not encouraging proper education that would qualify the working parent for decently-paying jobs - these are all serious issues.

I'm not sure that the debt-free part, alone, is necessarily a bad thing. If you still follow the other aspects, but have debt, you'll find it easier to manage at first, but will ultimately struggle more in the long-run as you get in over your head, and you may also find that people in your community rely on debt so much that it starts to support unrealistic lifestyles. It could be better to train teens in house renovation so that they can buy cheap housing at auctions and go anywhere that cheap housing exists, than it is to advise them on how to get 40 years mortgages and lines of credit and basically swamp them with debt with no realistic prospect of ever being able to pay it off.

[lilwriter85]

I agree that their system is completely unsustainable. I'd love to know what the financial arrangements are for Josh Duggar's housing in the DC burbs. And what the housing plans are for Zach Bates & Chad Payne. We know that Chad has been fixing up a decrepit cottage on his family's property. I have no idea what Zach will do. The Bates own several acres, I think, and he could build a place--but he better start now. Or perhaps put a trailer on it?

[In defense of trailers, they can be quite nice. Better to live in a trailer you can afford than in a McMansion you can't]

I agree with this. Many trailers are very nice and they can continue to be nice if well maintained. Many pre-fab/or modular homes are well built.

[lilwriter85]

Another reason some QF types have managed to be debt free or buy homes easily is because some have lived in a low cost of living states their whole lives.

[GeoBQn]

Plus, Jim-Bob was an exception in that he had good business acumen and became financially independent at a young age (i.e he had enough passive income to passably support his growing brood).

He also made money on the real estate market before it went bust. I doubt any of his children will be able to make money in the same manner for a long time--if ever.

[GenerationCedarchip]

Another reason some QF types have managed to be debt free or buy homes easily is because some have lived in a low cost of living states their whole lives.

Yes, this. I think the QF bloggers we see (many of whom have businesses and/or make money off of their blogs) are a bit different. The non-famous QF families that I've seen offline come from all over the economic spectrum but I've noticed that many seem to live in low-cost states or in the lower-cost portions of other states (ex. In Virginia, plenty of fundies to be found in the Valley and in Southwest VA - not so many in the DC burbs). I've also noticed that many will either start off by fixing up a decrepit house or by building on family land, and that cuts costs. Also, while some of the famous QF-ers badmouth college, there are definitely plenty of middle-class and even wealthy QF clans who send their kids to college. They're getting ever pickier about where they send them, but they still do get them out there.

Offline, the QF movement cuts across a wider socioeconomic spectrum than I think a lot of folks realize. I've encountered plenty of uneducated families living in rundown housing(think family of 12 in a 2 bedroom cottage), but I also saw college and law school classmates of mine start off in mainline churches and then eventually over the years get sucked into the movement. One of my law school classmates went from the Episcopal church to the PCA. She worked in a big commercial firm and then, when she got sucked into QF around the time she married, she left her firm and used her accumulated bonuses to buy herself and her husband a big farmhouse in a rural part of a southern state(don't want to use too many identifying details here). She is now a homeschool mom of 6 while husband is a tenured professor. Not the usual thing we see on blogs, but these folks are out there, too.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Well, look on page 8 to see one example of debt-free living:

http://nogreaterjoy.org/wordpress/f/199 ... ctober.pdf

If you don't spend money on extras like electricity, running water or medical care.....

[JesusFightClub]

That might get you one room in a house in my area :lol:

Tell me about it :lol:

I am resigned to never, never, never owning my own home - I don't make anything like enough and my credit's fucked but I would be laughing if even flats were as cheap as that. The cheapest I ever heard of was £20,000 for a one-bedroom flat in a Glasgow high-rise that was scheduled for demolition, and that was ten years ago.

[AuntCloud]

What's wrong with this lovely house you can buy and move off to whenever you'd like to park it? (there's this little issue of the house being an unremediated grow-op, but surely you can fix that if you're Godly enough!)

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.a ... -374111765

The No Greater Joy article :angry-banghead: so money is dirty, and you should have as little of it as possible, and being out where people can see you is frowned upon, so just sit in your shack in the back of beyond, with no electricity and cooking on a camping stove, and that's your ticket to heaven?

[infooverload]

I also saw college and law school classmates of mine start off in mainline churches and then eventually over the years get sucked into the movement

The above quote I think is really relevant when having this discussion. So many of the quiverfull movement come from mainline churches. A lot of non denominational churches will say things like "trust God in all things" and depending on the believer we can see how this could lead someone to be quiverful.

[JesusFightClub]

What's wrong with this lovely house you can buy and move off to whenever you'd like to park it? (there's this little issue of the house being an unremediated grow-op, but surely you can fix that if you're Godly enough!)

http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.a ... -374111765

The No Greater Joy article :angry-banghead: so money is dirty, and you should have as little of it as possible, and being out where people can see you is frowned upon, so just sit in your shack in the back of beyond, with no electricity and cooking on a camping stove, and that's your ticket to heaven?

What a weird looking house! And what is a "unremediated grow-op"?

I see it has three garages on it, if you have three cars you can afford a non-weird house, I think :whistle:

[AuntCloud]

Apparently, after a house has been transformed into a weed greenhouse, it's not very safe to live in without some serious intervention!

http://www.thestar.com/life/homes/2011/ ... rowop.html

Agreed, there's something very off about the proportions of the house - just read a book about "how not to build", and why we think some houses just seem off and wrong.

[2xx1xy1JD]

$39 can get you a 3 bedroom in Detroit. No windows, and your house may be filled with squatters and look like it's in a war zone, but it's affordable housing.

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhom ... I553624565

[Actually, if enough young couples who were handy DID move in a renovate entire blocks or neighborhoods, it would probably be a good thing.]

In my city, $50,000 gets you an apartment in a building that was recently subject to a huge police raid in connection with a crack gang.

"Unremediated grow-up" is Canadian for "house that was used to grow tons of marijuana plants, meaning that electricity and heat were probably illegally diverted and that the house was so hot and humid that it likely has toxic mold growing everywhere". You would need to rip the house apart in order to get it safe to human habitation.

[GenerationCedarchip]

I also saw college and law school classmates of mine start off in mainline churches and then eventually over the years get sucked into the movement

The above quote I think is really relevant when having this discussion. So many of the quiverfull movement come from mainline churches. A lot of non denominational churches will say things like "trust God in all things" and depending on the believer we can see how this could lead someone to be quiverful.

I can definitely see that. Some churches use very mushy, vague language and I could see someone just running with it. I've actually had good conversations with some of my friends who got sucked into fundie because as an escapee, I find it interesting. One thing I noticed a lot of them saying was that they felt like mainline churches didn't take strong stands for anything and conservative churches - and later the QF movement - appealed to them because being there made them feel like they really believed in something. The sense of strong community in the movement seems to be another big motivator.

[JesusFightClub]

OMG! Thanks for the explanations and the link!

It is very bad to live in a drug house, or one that has that rep. Not all people realise it is not a drug house any more, and you are prone to...unwelcome visitors.

Where I used to live, there were some flats where dealers operated out of, or used to operate out of. One day I was walking home from the shop where I'd been buying some drink and a copy of the Morning Star (I didn't say I was either classy or free from the occasional political lapse). I saw a bloke with a black hoodie on and what I thought was a fork in his hand trying to break in to a house which I knew used to be a drug house (wasn't sure of its present status). He ran away when he saw me and the fork was a crowbar.

If you live in a house with a drug reputation, expect that to keep happening to you. Where I lived once my downstairs neighbour was a dealer. It was a mixed flat not a tenement so people would come looking for him and bang on my door, and there were arguments in the night that got violent. The final straw was when the coppers used a battering ram to take down his door. I bet if he was innocent and still lived in that place he'd be a target for some unfortunate attention. Not as much, but the risk would still be there.

Living in a place where a dealer lived, where a dealer associated with his pals, where a criminal enterprise has gone on, near where a dealer lives...I've done it when I was broke, but you live on your nerves! :shock:

[AuntCloud]

Goodness, JFC, you definitely deserved that drink you were getting... and I thought my apartment in Tel-Aviv was not the best when the downstairs neighbour's kid was practicing his electric guitar and the upstairs neighbour was clanking her heeled clogs at 6am on Saturday morning.

[docmom]

The thing is that of all the debt you can accrue in a lifetime, a mortgage is one of the saner forms. In the US, where interest on mortgage payments continues to be tax deductable, it can actually be more cost effective to have a mortgage than to own outright. Having a mortgage can also allow you accumulate a great deal of wealth that you couldn't accumulate any other way. Our first home was bought for $180K with $30k down and the rest mortgaged. Four years later we sold it for for $350K. Now granted, this was at the height of the housing bubble, but over time, real estate is usually a good investment. There's certainly no other way we could have made that type of money for that outlay in 4 years.