All things Razing Ruth

[library_youth]

Over at GOMI someone linked to an FJ thread where Ruth did say she was studying Library Science and Literature. Here's the thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8104

Ruth's post (bolding mine):

A Cliff Notes summary of me?

I was the first girl in a family of eleven kids (though, one was born after I left home). My father was involved in Bill Gothard's original youth conflicts ministry, which evolved into what is now known as ATI or IBLP. I was homeschooled by my mother using the ATI curriculum. We were, I guess you could say, a pilot/test family. As has been mentioned, I was "courted" by a young man I didn't love, or particularly care for, and I left my family. I journaled most of this in a serial style chronical for NLQ. I am now in university studying Library Science and Literature. Recently, my sister got pregnant and left my father's home. I'll try to answer any questions you have but please know that I remain anonymous for my own reasons and I may not answer every question you ask.

So, what university in California offers a bachelor's degree in library science? I could only find schools with master's programs when I searched.

[Curious]

I realize it's hot out this summer and that is probably making people a bit cranky, but let's try to calm down just a little bit please. First, I want to clear up a few things and then I will address some of the things people are asking in this thread.

1. No one has been banned under this administration for anything other than sock puppetry.

2. To the best of my knowledge, 2 people were banned under Alecto's administration. Those people were: Elle and Koolaiddrinkingmama (or something close to that..it was on yuku). Those folks were both banned for sock puppetry. Elle was "outed" as Aria Star, but she was not banned until she started posting as LisaM. Then both her accounts were banned.

3. Raine is not banned, nor was she outed. She posted using her real name, as previously mentioned.

4. AD is not banned. She was outed under Alecto's administration and ToU, which was different than the one we have now.

5. I would like to remind people that the ToU we have now was made SPECIFICALLY strict regarding the outing of members at member REQUEST due to an incident that happened during the beginning of the transition. Members can't have it both ways. That ToU protects ALL members and that includes trolls, potential scammers, members in good standing and everything in between.

6. Moderators can't see IP addresses. Administrators are the only ones that can see them. It's necessary to see them for account approval, which is handled by administrators, not mods.

7. RR has not broken any of the rules or the ToU and we have no reason to ban her. Lying is not against either the rules or the ToU, if it turns out she has been lying.

8. RR has not solicited funds directly on FJ. We have been very careful to make sure that has not happened by RR or anyone else. That IS against our ToU and Rules.

I think that covers everything I have seen floating about in this thread that was a bit misinformationesque. Now for a few further comments.

I know we have been gloriously drama free for quite some time, so some people are probably getting itchy trigger fingers, but please try to remember how much nicer it is here when we have less drama/fighting. I know it's sweltering out for a lot of people right now and that is probably not helping, but creating drama out of nothing here is not going to help things.

Some of you were upset about the number of disclaimers posted recently, but this thread is a PERFECT example of why those disclaimers were being posted. Just a few posts ago this was posted: (bold mine)

This is a perfect encapsulation of why I think we need to think very hard about whether or not Razing Ruth is permitted to post here any longer. I came to this via a completely different fundamentalist, but knowing that Ruth had so many people vouching for her here gave her legitimacy in my eyes. I don't think I am the only one. At this point, the ofduggar posts show Ruth has been floating different versions of her story for a while and I hope that the uneasiness she brings to the table in terms of her truthfulness isn't allowed to continue to taint this site.

Here are a few numbers to give you an idea of what we are working with (against):

Currently FJ has 7428 members. At a minimum 2466 of those people can see Chatter (it might be more, I didn't really take the time to count them out specifically)

The Rules thread has been viewed 2622 times. The ToU thread has been viewed 2954 times. The Threads asking for support thread in chatter has been viewed 195 times.

The Rules and ToU threads are available for public viewing, so who knows how many of those views are actually members and how many are from the public, but even allowing for ALL of them to be members that works out to be around 1/3 or a little less that have actually viewed those threads.

My math is not good enough to figure out what percentage of 2466 195 is, but I know it's a pretty small one.

So while I realize it was annoying for the people that read all the threads to see the same post in each thread it was a preemptive measure we felt was necessary given the low volume of members reading the documents. I have solved the issue now, so hopefully everyone is satisfied with the new way the disclaimer is being handled.

FJ is well past the point of being the small community it once was and while we are trying to keep it the same as much as possible it has to be run like a "real" forum or it would be total chaos with over 7k members now. I know change sucks. We don't always like it either, but it's part of growing. We are working on better ways to handle things.

We will not be publishing RR IP addresses, just like we would not publish any of your IP addresses, as Lilith mentioned. I will say that there is nothing noteworthy on that front.

At this point, we don't feel that moving this thread back to snark is warranted. Generally speaking, the long time folks that have followed the RR saga have enough posts to read/post in Chatter. We are not sure that bringing a ton of new posters into this at this time will do anything but cause vastly more drama. This is not a decision that is cast in stone and we revisit it a number of times during each day as things progress on the thread. If something happens that is more concrete one way or the other vs speculation, we will more strongly consider moving it back to snark at least for awhile.

I think that's it. People are free to PM me or we can start a thread in Community Discussion if you have questions or comments that are more FJ-the site vs RR related so we don't further derail this thread, if anyone wishes.

[mrs]

From Ruth's' 10/10/09 entry, "Pregnant"

Now let's do the math: at least 50-29= at least 21 at first pregnancy. How long was Ruth's mom teaching/going to school/etc before she joined ATI?

I wrote this over a year ago and had it saved in my inbox. I am pretty sure this “somewhat†answers your question.

Ruth writes that her mother graduated from high school at the age of 16. She graduates college within 3 years, making her 19ish. She works as a middle school teacher for at least one year. She meets Ruth’s father before 1974(she writes that her father was part of Campus Teams when they met, which changed its name in 1974 to IBLP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gothard ).

Then falls in love and is married within 6 months. So I think that means she would be approximately 19/20 when she is married, in 1974/1975? Making her birth year, 1955?

This is all speculation by me.

http://razingruth.blogspot.com/2009/06/who-is-ruth.html

http://razingruth.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... -ruth.html

[tuckerphez]

Wow, mrs, I was about to talk about that, but you did a much better job. The discrepancy is even worse now, though - if Ruth's oldest brother was born within a year of her parents marriage, why did she say her mom's first pregnancy was in 1980?

Even if Ruth's mom taught for less than year, and had her first kid at 20 and her last kid at 49 - the odds of conceiving at that age and successfully carrying a pregnancy to term are ridiculous. Especially as, according to Ruth, 4 years earlier her mother had an unsuccessful pregnancy.

From razingruth.blogspot.com/2009/10/pregnant.html

...my mom had a baby born early that passed away. That doctor told my mom not to get pregnant ever again because her uterus couldn't hold the pregnancy.

The timeline/biology of all of this is really confusing me.

[treemom]

on second thought it just isn't worth it.

[ShesCrafty]

why are you telling people to calm down? No one has been remotely close to asshattish in this thread.

Yeah, I'm not getting it either. This is the second time in this thread that posters have been told by admins to calm down/dial back, words to that effect. I'm just not seeing it. FWIW, I think the mods/admins do an excellent job and its only been the last few days that I've noticed a bit of heavy-handedness. This has the effect of shutting down the discussion, though I realize that is not the admins intentions. I do appreciate the compromising (such as the banner at the top), but if being interested in a blog I've been following (and doubting) for years makes me a drama llama, so be it. :P

[Curious]

Yeah, I'm not getting it either. This is the second time in this thread that posters have been told by admins to calm down/dial back, words to that effect. I'm just not seeing it. FWIW, I think the mods/admins do an excellent job and its only been the last few days that I've noticed a bit of heavy-handedness. This has the effect of shutting down the discussion, though I realize that is not the admins intentions. I do appreciate the compromising (such as the banner at the top), but if being interested in a blog I've been following (and doubting) for years makes me a drama llama, so be it. :P

Talking about banning a poster that hasn't broken any rules is a little over the top maybe? Earlier, there was also a bit more misinformationy type stuff flying through the thread. I drafted this post when that was going on and just didn't change the intro part when I finally posted it. That post was also not originally directed only at the RR thread. You can probably tell it originally addressed the disclaimer stuff as well, but that was resolved by the time I posted it, so that part was edited to reflect the changes that were made. I realize that on FJ pretty much *any* moderation is unusual, but I think calling the moderation heavy handed is a bit hyperbolic.

Posting a disclaimer is not exactly moderation, per se. No one was being stopped from posting, it was more of a CYA function. I'm sorry that it was so upsetting for people, but it was explained several times and it was also explained that it was temporary. I think that the members posting in the threads complaining about it was likely far more derailing than the ONE original post.

Hopefully, things are resolved and/or all questions have been covered now and we can go back to our nice, drama-free way of the last few months.

[Lainey]

So anyway, if Ruth *is* the same person as Possummomma, apparently her M.O. when called out is to just drop it and move on to the next scam.

[Koala]

Yeah, I'm not getting it either. This is the second time in this thread that posters have been told by admins to calm down/dial back, words to that effect. I'm just not seeing it. FWIW, I think the mods/admins do an excellent job and its only been the last few days that I've noticed a bit of heavy-handedness. This has the effect of shutting down the discussion, though I realize that is not the admins intentions. I do appreciate the compromising (such as the banner at the top), but if being interested in a blog I've been following (and doubting) for years makes me a drama llama, so be it. :P

You can add me to the list of people that don't really understand why this warranted the response it has been given, just as I still don't understand the purpose of closeting it in chatter. The requests to "dial back the obsession" and "calm down" read as if we are all over here going k-9 insane.

Sure, some different ideas have been thrown out (banning Ruth, running her IP) but I think they have all been rather tame. No one that I see is having a fit over it.

I don't know, I have been uncomfortable with the tone things were taking for a while now. There is a lot that has to stay behind the scenes, I get that, but I also feel like a lot of things are less than upfront. Kind of like the lawyer thing. No one that can respond (or will respond) knows exactly why we need one, when we'll be obtaining one, or exactly how much that might cost. No one (that I know) understands how that relates to account deletions. It's just all very vague. When anyone mentions anything they're uncomfortable with you hear a lot of "well we all have lives", or "so and so knows about that. Maybe they'll respond", or as today "the mods are doing the best they can whilst have heaps of coal shoveled onto them from the group".

Idk....just a lot of handslappery lately and it's beginning to feel a lot less like the "free speech zone" it was once touted as.

I don't know if anyone else feels the same way. I never have much liked change, so maybe it's just me.

***side note*** one of the other things that makes me nervous is that any questions are perceived as an attempt to create drama. Sometimes that may be the case, but this board has undergone a big change-there are going to be a lot of questions. JMO

[Koala]

Wanted to add that I do understand why it was moved to chatter originally, but I do not understand why it is being kept here.

[Lainey]

I feel the same way as Koala. Nothing I can do about it but wait and see how it goes, though, I figure.

I really don't see much drama in this thread other than the obvious drama of finding out that Ruth is potentially a scammer.

ETA: ^^And I don't think that can be avoided.

[Mecca]

on second thought it just isn't worth it.

I think it is. I think this is a discussion that is a long time coming, and for the most, people are remaining calm considering.

Sure, Ruth may not be technically by TOU standands soliciting, but she is using FJ to get her story out there to gain something, be it money or attention. I believe any type of investigation on the subject is good. The truth needs to come to light either way. People need to know the truth so they can make educated decisions about the person they are helping. I am personally sick of seeing good people that want to help get taken for a ride. And if that is the case here, we need to nip it in the bud, ASAP.

[ShesCrafty]

***side note*** one of the other things that makes me nervous is that any questions are perceived as an attempt to create drama. Sometimes that may be the case, but this board has undergone a big change-there are going to be a lot of questions. JMO

Yeah, that's my impression as well. I personally don't care about the behind the scene, lawyer stuff, but I believe the moderation lately (past week or so) has been heavy handed. I don't think that's hyberbolic, I think it's pretty accurate, IMO. Again, I think the admins do a great job and its only been lately I've noticed this. I say that not to cause drama, but just to give my impression of what I've seen lately since this seems to be coming up in other threads as well. YMMV.

ETA

Wanted to add that I do understand why it was moved to chatter originally, but I do not understand why it is being kept here.

I don't get it either.

[laura oz]

So which Free Jinger members did she meet?

:text-bump: I'm nosy - it's a character flaw I'm working on- and want to know too. I'd really just like to know if she's real YKWIM?

ETA After reading a bit more, I'm smelling a strong odor of bullshit and it's rolling like waves off of "Ruth"

[Peas n carrots]

I think it is. I think this is a discussion that is a long time coming, and for the most, people are remaining calm considering.

Sure, Ruth may not be technically by TOU standands soliciting, but she is using FJ to get her story out there to gain something, be it money or attention. I believe any type of investigation on the subject is good. The truth needs to come to light either way. People need to know the truth so they can make educated decisions about the person they are helping. I am personally sick of seeing good people that want to help get taken for a ride. And if that is the case here, we need to nip it in the bud, ASAP.

I'm glad the conversation is being had as well, as it is needed. The connecting dots show something is up - maybe there is a good explanation, and maybe it's a scam (though I'm definitely leaning more towards the latter with the ofduggar name handle).

I don't think banning M/R would be necessary, and besides I'd like to see if she would come on here and discuss the whole situation. Though I'm not holding my breathe that that will happen.

As others have said I'm dead curious who she has met.

[Koala]

I believe the moderation lately (past week or so) has been heavy handed. I don't think that's hyberbolic, I think it's pretty accurate, IMO.

For me, an example of this was the implied threat to just lock down the advice threads. It almost sounds like something you would say to a kid, "well, if you don't like it, we'll just go home", except in this case it was, "well if you don't like the way it's being handled, then perhaps we should just lock all of the advice threads and see how you like that" <-----pretty heavy paraphrasing here, but that's how it read.

I understand (and am glad) a solution was reached (banner at the top), but I did not care for the road that was taken to get there

[formergothardite]

:text-bump: I'm nosy - it's a character flaw I'm working on- and want to know too. I'd really just like to know if she's real YKWIM?

I was beginning to wonder if it would be bad to ask again. :lol: Is this just something she said and nobody ever questioned who she met or did she ever mention who it was? I don't think her story is real or that she met anyone from here, but I could see her meeting someone and being able to pull off being "Ruth" for a short visit.

[library_youth]

I'm also very curious who she's met, too, since she said she has met some FJers.

I'm not convinced that someone showed up at her work. The "I showed her my license" part didn't ring true to me. Why would she freely show it to someone she doesn't know, when she's always so protective of her identity? It also seemed too convenient that she just happened to have her license on her for this random person's unannounced visit.

[Curious]

Am I the only person that uses the word calm to mean stop a moment and take a deep breath? This morning there were all sorts of things being floated that were not even true (which is when I drafted that post, but then other things came up and it wasn't posted until later).

No one has said that RR can't be vetted, only that she can't be outed on the forum. People have said for ages that it's wise to be skeptical of these types of things online and yet today someone still posted that "because people on FJ vouched for her she seemed trustworthy" or something similar and then people wonder why we were posting a disclaimer right, left and sideways lately?

People on this forum are smart, yet some of you seem to be willfully obtuse on some of the things regarding the administration of the forum, no matter how many times it has been explained. I can't decide if you truly don't understand or what :(

No one has said you can't question any of us. This may come as a shock to people, but we really don't eat, sleep and breathe the forum right now. We did for many months and then real life hit all 3 of the TT at once. Meda is going to give birth shortly, buzzard has been in and out of the hospital for going on a month and I've been sick since March. I'm sorry that that forum hasn't been our number 1 priority during this time, but it has run smoothly during this time and I hope people would be happy for that. No one is spending their own money to pay for the servers any longer, so I'm not really sure why there is such a deep concern about things that will happen when they happen, which will be when meda is done creating life and buzzard and I are not spending all our time running to drs.

This is an internet forum, ffs. It doesn't cost you anything to come here. Let's get some perspective. I'm well past my limit for sitting up today, but I'm still here trying to make people happy today because people are upset over ONE freaking post per thread and me using the word calm.

There is nothing nefarious going on behind the scenes. We just don't have anything new to tell you because we have been busy trying to keep our real lives together. If I had nothing better to do than worry about every day than the inner workings of a forum I do not even own, I would be so fucking happy!

[Curious]

Kind of like the lawyer thing. No one that can respond (or will respond) knows exactly why we need one, when we'll be obtaining one, or exactly how much that might cost. No one (that I know) understands how that relates to account deletions. It's just all very vague.

I don't think this is true at all. It has always been known the attorney is needed for the LLC. We do not currently have a timeline for hiring or cost, because there are some variables there. We may be able to do some of the paperwork ourselves which will save money on the lawyer costs, which would be ideal, obviously.

Until we have all the properties under our own LLC (created with an eye toward becoming a non-profit when we are able) we can't make any substantive changes to the forum in terms of deletions. I believe we have made this clear before, as well.

[Lainey]

It's times like this that I wish I had the gift of tact, which I do not, but I will do my best:

Curious, I think you may be taking people's minor annoyances and voicing of concerns overly personally at the moment, and I'm wondering if it is a direct result of being overwhelmed and not feeling well. You have said you're past your quota of sitting up for the day--perhaps it's time to go lie down, and forget about FJ for awhile? I mean this kindly, in concern for you, so I hope it comes across that way. I think we all can manage to behave ourselves long enough for you to take a break. :angelic-innocent:

[nokidsmom]

I'm glad the conversation is being had as well, as it is needed. The connecting dots show something is up - maybe there is a good explanation, and maybe it's a scam (though I'm definitely leaning more towards the latter with the ofduggar name handle).

I don't think banning M/R would be necessary, and besides I'd like to see if she would come on here and discuss the whole situation. Though I'm not holding my breathe that that will happen.

As others have said I'm dead curious who she has met.

Count me in as one who would also like to know.

I am glad this is being discussed as per the bolded. There are a lot of big hearted FJers here and, while it's to their credit to want to help a fellow member in need, we have had tales of woe being outed as scams (thinking the Lisa M. aka Elle sockpuppet saga here). If this is indeed a scam, I would like to know the truth. I'm sure others would too.

ETA: At this point, I seriously doubt that M/R will be back here to explain things.

[pikachu]

This may come as a shock to people, but we really don't eat, sleep and breathe the forum right now. ...

This is an internet forum, ffs. It doesn't cost you anything to come here. Let's get some perspective. I'm well past my limit for sitting up today, but I'm still here trying to make people happy today because people are upset over ONE freaking post per thread and me using the word calm.

....

There is nothing nefarious going on behind the scenes. We just don't have anything new to tell you because we have been busy trying to keep our real lives together. If I had nothing better to do than worry about every day than the inner workings of a forum I do not even own, I would be so fucking happy!

I'm sorry you are having health problems. I don't think you need to be so condescending about this forum. There were wrongdoings in the past and people value the community here whether they "own" it or not. Is there some sort of forum leader scriptbook that includes the part about responding to member questions with complaints about your illness and having nothing better to do in real life?

[laura oz]

I'm sorry you are having health problems. I don't think you need to be so condescending about this forum. There were wrongdoings in the past and people value the community here whether they "own" it or not. Is there some sort of forum leader scriptbook that includes the part about responding to member questions with complaints about your illness and having nothing better to do in real life?

Dang, that was a bit harsh. Mods and admins are human just like the rest of us. I may not like some of the calls they've made, but I don't think being nasty is the best way of trying to make someone else come around to your point of view :twocents-02cents: thought I'd give em even though nobody asked me to :lol:

[OkToBeTakei]

TOTAL derail. Quite excited that Meda is due soon.