Taliban Tony and Lina's crisis of faith/marriage

[wtylcf]

Whoa, I took a break from FJ and I come back to hear in passing that they're getting divorced? This is predictable but I thought they would have waited until at least the second blessing came along. Can anyone link me to the original thread about the drama? Frankly, I think it's the best thing for them, including the baby.

Heh, unfortunately, you're on that very thread, bananacat! There's been very little info, just some conjectures from Facebook and twitter. It all started with the post at the beginning of the thread where I thought Tony was expressing his escape from suicide, but which was more likely his reunion with Lina and brief return to religion, followed by another separation from Lina and disavowal of religion. Whew!

[LucySnowe]

It all started with the post at the beginning of the thread where I thought Tony was expressing his escape from suicide, but which was more likely his reunion with Lina and brief return to religion, followed by another separation from Lina and disavowal of religion. Whew!

So basically there's been more action in four pages of this thread than in four entire THREADS about XGayGreg and Dede....

Best of luck to Lina and the kid.

[wtylcf]

Another screencap from facebook, basically confirming what everyone already knows.

[ladyamylynn]

I was going to post that! How does that irony taste, Lina?

[sea_gale]

Another screencap from facebook, basically confirming what everyone already knows.

Ha, I just screencapped the same thing. I just hope she starts blogging again. It was interesting to see how Autumn developed after her divorce.

[Beeks]

So it's true. Poor Lina - it must be terrifying to be so young with a baby and no job skills. I know she got herself into it but she was a teenager. Teenagers do stupid things. I hope her family is being supportive so she can rise above this.

TT is an asshole.

[fundiefun]

Exactly yes Lina went into it with the mindset of that it would all go as planned, but I was the exact same way when I was a teen young and dumb and nobody deserves that.

[linnea27]

Does anyone else interpret that screenshot to mean that he attempted to kill her? He led her to God in the wrong way? Or is that just a comment on the fake Judaism they practiced?

[Koala]

So it's true. Poor Lina - it must be terrifying to be so young with a baby and no job skills. I know she got herself into it but she was a teenager. Teenagers do stupid things. I hope her family is being supportive so she can rise above this.

TT is an asshole.

ITA. I am so glad that I am not defined by the choices I made as a teenager.

[GeoBQn]

Does anyone else interpret that screenshot to mean that he attempted to kill her? He led her to God in the wrong way? Or is that just a comment on the fake Jewishness they practiced?

I think it means that she turned to G-d after he left her.

[linnea27]

I think it means that she turned to G-d after he left her.

I certainly hope so, but this latest screenshot, coupled with the first one about death in front of him (which somebody said sounded like Lina might have almost died) does make me wonder.

I do wish Lina the best.

[Sola]

I don't know what to think about. On one hand I do have sympathy for Lina, but I do wonder if it is her total immersion in fake Judaism has something to do with it. When Tony started posting Humanist quotes I was pleased because to me it meant he was started to think for himself and find his own path. If that path leads back to religion, at least he will have explored that part of him. But now I'm wondering if this journey of his has led to Lina leaving him because she's unable to to reconcile his exploration of Humanism and Atheism with her fake Judaism.

The whole death thing doesn't come across as a physical, actual death to me. It appears to be more likely referring to a spiritual death. I've heard it many times from religionistas that people without a religion are facing death; a spiritual death. So Tony posting that he stared death in the face seemed more likely to about him living a life without religion and at that point that he made the post, it was unnerving to him so he returned to the faith.

It is never easy leaving religion, many people try and go back time and time again. Tony's family seem to be deeply involved in fake Judaism/evangelical Christianity so him declaring himself an atheist would be very hard for him to do and live with. I can quite easily see his family and Lina putting pressure on him to return to the fold of religion and for a person just starting out on experiencing free thinking, Humanism and Atheism after a lifetime of religion, that can be overwhelming.

For Lina too, it is a difficult situation. She went against her family's wishes to be a stay at home daughter, she married a man who she felt was stalking her and who she hardly know, she converted to fake Judaism from what seems like a regular Christian family and completely immersed herself into, and never wavered when faced with detractors. She must have felt that what people were saying originally were right and that she had made a huge mistake. That is never easy for anyone to admit.

Moral of the story; they were both far too young.

[wtylcf]

Sola, I think your post is spot on. No doubt Tony, either from family pressure or inner fears, went back to religion and saved himself from "spiritual death," only to find he still had doubts he couldn't quash. (In general, and not specifically in response to Sola, I'm kind of regretting the title of this thread, except at the time I thought his reference to "crouching death" could mean a number of things - taking the statement literally was among the possibilities.)

I really wonder what he thought would happen with Lina in light of his un-conversion experience, whether he was certain she'd follow him into secularism or whether he realized he'd lose her over his beliefs. If I recall, they both seemed quite pro-submission and wifely obedience in their faux-Jewish days. I imagine he gave her some secular humanist texts to read to see if she'd follow him into atheism, and she'd have none of it; there were probably a lot of tears, arguments and heartache.

Lina, in my opinion, seems like someone who absolutely loves religious ritual and the feeling of being special and set-apart through self-discipline in one's own life. ("A set apart life" was the name of her old blog, wasn't it?) I'm sure that was the main appeal of Messianic Judaism - tons of rules to follow for food, praying, dress, relationships with others, even more so than straight-up fundie-dom. I'm sure this was also the motivation for her vegan diet; the sense of specialness it must have given her, the devotion to purity through diet she felt she'd achieved, and the amount of discipline it took. Much to the relief of every person who hates to see a culture appropriated by another group who completely distorts it in the process, she seems to have completely abandoned fake-jewishness. I could see her loving, for example, Orthodoxy, if she decides to go for a branch of Christianity in which ritual plays a major part in church services and in daily life.

[ladyamylynn]

Sola, I think your post is spot on. No doubt Tony, either from family pressure or inner fears, went back to religion and saved himself from "spiritual death," only to find he still had doubts he couldn't quash. (In general, and not specifically in response to Sola, I'm kind of regretting the title of this thread, except at the time I thought his reference to "crouching death" could mean a number of things - taking the statement literally was among the possibilities.)

I really wonder what he thought would happen with Lina in light of his un-conversion experience, whether he was certain she'd follow him into secularism or whether he realized he'd lose her over his beliefs. If I recall, they both seemed quite pro-submission and wifely obedience in their faux-Jewish days. I imagine he gave her some secular humanist texts to read to see if she'd follow him into atheism, and she'd have none of it; there were probably a lot of tears, arguments and heartache.

Lina, in my opinion, seems like someone who absolutely loves religious ritual and the feeling of being special and set-apart through self-discipline in one's own life. ("A set apart life" was the name of her old blog, wasn't it?) I'm sure that was the main appeal of Messianic Judaism - tons of rules to follow for food, praying, dress, relationships with others, even more so than straight-up fundie-dom. I'm sure this was also the motivation for her vegan diet; the sense of specialness it must have given her, the devotion to purity through diet she felt she'd achieved, and the amount of discipline it took. Much to the relief of every person who hates to see a culture appropriated by another group who completely distorts it in the process, she seems to have completely abandoned fake-jewishness. I could see her loving, for example, Orthodoxy, if she decides to go for a branch of Christianity in which ritual plays a major part in church services and in daily life.

Well said. I also feel like Anthony, because of his personality and age, is the type of person who will throw themselves completely into whatever they're currently into, whether that be faux-Judaism, atheism, whatever. He reminds me of the young guys who post on the atheism subreddit. I'm sure he's probably being pretty vocal about his new-found identity and that's just never going to work with a religious spouse. Even if she is backing off the fundamentalism. (I'm an atheist of over 15 years, but I still find the young-male dominated brand of Hitchens worshipers to be a little hard to take.)

edited to correct spelling

[Sola]

Well something must have happened. Lina isn't on Tony's friendlist on fb any more. But she is on some of his relatives friend lists and she is going by her maiden name. Pretty sad all round really. I hope they manage to stay friends with each other for the baby.

[Burris]

The baby is adorable.

Both Jocelyn Dixon and Paulina apparently now have failed multiple courtships/marriages now - it's hard not to feel smug about that. I hope Paulina doesn't have a difficult separation (and hoping Taliban Tony doesn't act violent or anything towards her) but aside from her and the baby's basic welfare....that's about it.

It's hard for me to feel smug, however irritated I am by Lina. I did all kinds of amazingly stupid shit, coupled to some general dumbassery, when I was around her age.

I hope she bounces back and doesn't get sucked into the T-Hole again.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

It's hard for me to feel smug, however irritated I am by Lina. I did all kinds of amazingly stupid shit, coupled to some general dumbassery, when I was around her age.

I hope she bounces back and doesn't get sucked into the T-Hole again.

+1. It was stunningly close to Lina's behavior. I was at a great college and I had my app all filled out to go to Stern (an Orthodox Jewish women's college affiliated with Yeshiva U) because I just wanted to be in a "godly atmosphere" and find a husband. Thank the FSM for my mom gently encouraging me to give it another semester....

[bananacat]

Does anyone else interpret that screenshot to mean that he attempted to kill her? He led her to God in the wrong way? Or is that just a comment on the fake Judaism they practiced?

It says that a husband is supposed to make his wife like God more than himself. And he accomplished that by being terrible and unlikable so that any amount of love for God would automatically be more than what she has for him, which is none.

[longskirts]

+1. It was stunningly close to Lina's behavior. I was at a great college and I had my app all filled out to go to Stern (an Orthodox Jewish women's college affiliated with Yeshiva U) because I just wanted to be in a "godly atmosphere" and find a husband. Thank the FSM for my mom gently encouraging me to give it another semester....

I don't think considering YU is anything like Lina's behavior. Yes, YU is Orthodox, but many people there are modern or left-wing Orthodox. They get degrees, the women go on to graduate school or jobs and internships. Some get married in college but not everyone there does and the graduates have other options besides "wife and mother". Women working is really really common in modern Orthodoxy.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I don't think considering YU is anything like Lina's behavior. Yes, YU is Orthodox, but many people there are modern or left-wing Orthodox. They get degrees, the women go on to graduate school or jobs and internships. Some get married in college but not everyone there does and the graduates have other options besides "wife and mother". Women working is really really common in modern Orthodoxy.

I know all about modern Orthodoxy, thank you. The fact remains that for women at Stern, it is primarily about marrying a good Jewish man. For me and my values, Orthodox Judaism was completely radical.

[longskirts]

I know all about modern Orthodoxy, thank you. The fact remains that for women at Stern, it is primarily about marrying a good Jewish man. For me and my values, Orthodox Judaism was completely radical.

For some that may be a priority but for many others there, marriage is really not their primary focus. It may not have been right for you but it's nothing like Lina. Even if you had jumped into that life and married in college, you would not have had to submit to your husband, you would not have had to throw away education or career and be a SAHW. .

Not trying to convince you about MO, I just don't want others to see the thread and think YU = Lina's lifestyle when they're totally not comparable.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

For some that may be a priority but for many others there, marriage is really not their primary focus. It may not have been right for you but it's nothing like Lina. Even if you had jumped into that life and married in college, you would not have had to submit to your husband, you would not have had to throw away education or career and be a SAHW. .

Not trying to convince you about MO, I just don't want others to see the thread and think YU = Lina's lifestyle when they're totally not comparable.

And I don't want others to see the thread and think that fundamentalism can be positive. It's not, whether it is Jews or Christians or Muslims doing it, and whether it is "fundie-lite" Christianity or "modern" Orthodox Judaism. (Don't know the Muslim equivalent, my apologies.)

[longskirts]

Disagree that modern Orthodox is fundie-lite. I would classify chareidi as fundie, middle-of-the-road yeshivish as fundie-lite.

You don't have to think MO is positive but it's just inaccurate to equate it with SAHD/SAHW fundie-ism. Women staying home or submitting is not a value in MO.

[darkplumaged]

I am no more surprised that Lina and TT have split than I am that the sun rose today, or that Dede and XGay's "baby" still hasn't made an appearance.

[Sola]

It says that a husband is supposed to make his wife like God more than himself. And he accomplished that by being terrible and unlikable so that any amount of love for God would automatically be more than what she has for him, which is none.

I see it as the husband is supposed to lead the wife to be closer to god. Tony acheived this by going atheist and in turn Lina strengthened her faith by turning to god for solace. End result is still the same, to Lina she is closer to god, but the method of getting there wasn't what she had in mind.

BTW can we change the title of this thread? We've pretty much established that we aren't talking about a physical death/suicide. I'm finding the thread title awfully triggering. I know, I have issues..