Taliban Tony and Lina's crisis of faith/marriage

[lilith]

I see it as the husband is supposed to lead the wife to be closer to god. Tony acheived this by going atheist and in turn Lina strengthened her faith by turning to god for solace. End result is still the same, to Lina she is closer to god, but the method of getting there wasn't what she had in mind.

BTW can we change the title of this thread? We've pretty much established that we aren't talking about a physical death/suicide. I'm finding the thread title awfully triggering. I know, I have issues..

Done

[Sola]

Thanks Lilith.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Disagree that modern Orthodox is fundie-lite. I would classify chareidi as fundie, middle-of-the-road yeshivish as fundie-lite.

You don't have to think MO is positive but it's just inaccurate to equate it with SAHD/SAHW fundie-ism. Women staying home or submitting is not a value in MO.

Ok, if you think that a system that tells women to cover themselves up to avoid tempting men, a system that doesn't allow women in a minyan because they don't count, one in which your number one priority is childbearing regardless of what else you do - if you think all that is not fundamentalism, then ok. Your decision. We'll have to agree to disagree, because IMO it's the same shit in a slightly more attractive package. Been there, done that, ran screaming.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Whoah just found this thread when title was changed. Not surprised really that they are getting divorced.

Is anyone except TT & Lina surprised?

[Rowan]

Whoah just found this thread when title was changed. Not surprised really that they are getting divorced.

Is anyone except TT & Lina surprised?

DeDe and EGG would be surprised that Lina and Tony broke up before DD&EGG had their baby/babies. :lol:

[wtylcf]

Thank you, lilith!

[longskirts]

Ok, if you think that a system that tells women to cover themselves up to avoid tempting men, a system that doesn't allow women in a minyan because they don't count, one in which your number one priority is childbearing regardless of what else you do - if you think all that is not fundamentalism, then ok. Your decision. We'll have to agree to disagree, because IMO it's the same shit in a slightly more attractive package. Been there, done that, ran screaming.

Cover themselves up - some MO women do "cover up" (although many don't) but not because of tempting men.

Number one priority being childbearing - that's not MO. Everybody in MO uses birth control and they have much smaller families than other kinds of Orthodoxy, or Christian fundies. Virtually all MO women work outside the home and don't view childbearing as their main priority. As you should know if you actually spent time in MO. Sounds more like you were interacting with yeshivish people.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Cover themselves up - some MO women do "cover up" (although many don't) but not because of tempting men.

Number one priority being childbearing - that's not MO. Everybody in MO uses birth control and they have much smaller families than other kinds of Orthodoxy, or Christian fundies. Virtually all MO women work outside the home and don't view childbearing as their main priority. As you should know if you actually spent time in MO. Sounds more like you were interacting with yeshivish people.

Oh for fuck's sake. I must not have known the right MO folks because MO folks are all wonderfully liberal. Give me a break with the "no true Scotsman" bullshit. :angry-banghead:

[longskirts]

I'm not saying you didn't "know the right folks". I'm saying the attitudes you're describing are more right-wing. Religious groups are defined by their beliefs and lifestyles, so it's not a fallacy to point out that you're talking about beliefs promoted by a different group from MO.

No true Scotsman would be saying nobody really MO has green eyes or nobody really MO lives in Texas. Eye color or location don't define religions, but beliefs do.

[2xx1xy1JD]

This gets back to a question that I've asked before - how do we define "fundie", as opposed to merely "religious"?

Even within Modern Orthodoxy, there is a range of beliefs and behaviors, and it varies by location. My initial exposure was through the Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Montreal, which isn't the least bit fundie. Yes, it is Orthodox - but it also pushes boundaries, promotes feminism, encourages critical thinking, demonstrates against homophobia, etc. I also had a chance to hear Rabbi Avi Weiss speak on a few occasions - again, not remotely fundie unless you define any sort of religious adherence as fundie, and definitely willing to challenge the status quo and take a critical look at texts and practices.

You also have more right-wing forms of MO, where there is a backlash against Rabbi Avi Weiss and Open Orthodoxy, where people define themselves as "Modern" primarily because they aren't Hassidic, have higher education and work for a living. In some cases, we've seen a rightward drift in recent years.

As for the point about the minyan - you certainly don't have to agree with the Orthodox stance on this, but to be accurate, the Orthodox position is not that women "don't count" as human beings, but that they do not have the same obligation to engage in time-bound commandments such as praying 3x/day, and that certain prayers need to be said with others who are subject to the same obligation. Part of the reluctance to challenge this among some Modern Orthodox women stems from the fact that not all Orthodox women WANT to be subject to this obligation (although there are some who do), since it means getting up and attending services before work, making time to pray before sundown, and again in the evening, every day without exception. On the most liberal end of Modern Orthodoxy, you have the partnership minyans, women's prayer groups and women's Torah readings which aim to provide maximum opportunities for participation without actually changing traditional Jewish law.

[longskirts]

Good points about minyan, 2xx1xy1JD.

Even in right-wing MO, a Lina lifestyle of giving up education and work to breed/submit is not a thing. There are no MO SAHDs and SAHMs are rare.

OnceModestTwiceShy, I do see your point about people giving a pass to Jewish or Muslim fundamentalism. I'm personally appalled by some of the stuff Out of the Ortho Box and Mayim Bialik promote (to give a few examples). It always bothers me when people assume they can't be fundie because they're not evangelical.

[GeoBQn]

Here's a link to the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance for some more information:

jofa.org

[slh12280]

I see it as the husband is supposed to lead the wife to be closer to god. Tony acheived this by going atheist and in turn Lina strengthened her faith by turning to god for solace. End result is still the same, to Lina she is closer to god, but the method of getting there wasn't what she had in mind.

BTW can we change the title of this thread? We've pretty much established that we aren't talking about a physical death/suicide. I'm finding the thread title awfully triggering. I know, I have issues..

This is what I got from it. I feel for her but maybe this is the situation that will cause her to reevaluate her life. She may finally finish college and get a job. She strikes me as attentive mother, so no worries there. I hope she has someplace to go so she can get herself together. I am still sorry that things had to turn out this way even if TT did strike me in a less than favorable way. Good luck, Lina.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Here's a link to the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance for some more information:

jofa.org

Did I mention just how much I love Dr. Norma Baumel Joseph, who is on their council of advisors?

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/joseph-norma-baumel

One of the advantages of having spent several years on imamother.com was that I became reasonably fluent in the Jewish version of fundie-speak. It allowed me to come up with statements like this whenever someone suggested that I needed to follow crazier ideas:

"We each have our own derech (religious path). My bubby (grandmother), who was frum (an observant Jew) from birth, davened (prayed) at the Spanish and Portuguese in Montreal, and Norma Joseph was her rebbetzin (rabbi's wife). My parents were married there, and since the shul (synagogue) is Sephardic (reflecting the traditions of Spanish, Portuguese, North African and Middle Eastern Jews) and have a significant Iraqi contingent, my husband has said that it is consistent with his family minhagim (religious customs that are considered to be almost as binding as commandments). Therefore, our family minhag (custom) is clearly liberal Modern Orthodox. I take aseh l'cha rav ("make yourself a rabbi" ie. find a rabbi to be your personal religious advisor instead of just doing whatever you want) very seriously, and there is a clear psak (religious ruling) that women should be encouraged to participate as much as possible and that there is no halachic rule against them being shul presidents. I've also heard shiurim (lectures, classes) encouraging us to be shtark (strict) when it comes to mitzvot bein adam l'chavero (commandments on the behavior of one person toward fellow human beings), and that it is therefore incumbent upon us to oppose hatred and hate-based violence, even to the extent that we should go to the gay village to demonstrate our support."

[kemme]

Just looking at his facebook profile, he's so much of a 'bro' it hurts. I can't get over his douchey half-moustache either.

His profile picture of Azaraya in the swing is cute though.

[GeoBQn]

He's shaved off the beard and is looking very college frat-boy.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

This gets back to a question that I've asked before - how do we define "fundie", as opposed to merely "religious"?

Even within Modern Orthodoxy, there is a range of beliefs and behaviors, and it varies by location. My initial exposure was through the Spanish and Portuguese synagogue in Montreal, which isn't the least bit fundie. Yes, it is Orthodox - but it also pushes boundaries, promotes feminism, encourages critical thinking, demonstrates against homophobia, etc. I also had a chance to hear Rabbi Avi Weiss speak on a few occasions - again, not remotely fundie unless you define any sort of religious adherence as fundie, and definitely willing to challenge the status quo and take a critical look at texts and practices.

You also have more right-wing forms of MO, where there is a backlash against Rabbi Avi Weiss and Open Orthodoxy, where people define themselves as "Modern" primarily because they aren't Hassidic, have higher education and work for a living. In some cases, we've seen a rightward drift in recent years.

As for the point about the minyan - you certainly don't have to agree with the Orthodox stance on this, but to be accurate, the Orthodox position is not that women "don't count" as human beings, but that they do not have the same obligation to engage in time-bound commandments such as praying 3x/day, and that certain prayers need to be said with others who are subject to the same obligation. Part of the reluctance to challenge this among some Modern Orthodox women stems from the fact that not all Orthodox women WANT to be subject to this obligation (although there are some who do), since it means getting up and attending services before work, making time to pray before sundown, and again in the evening, every day without exception. On the most liberal end of Modern Orthodoxy, you have the partnership minyans, women's prayer groups and women's Torah readings which aim to provide maximum opportunities for participation without actually changing traditional Jewish law.

:roll: Again....I've heard it and I don't buy it. All I see is patriarchy excluding women, and a bunch of excuses to make it palatable. And what exactly is NOT fundie about spending so much time trying to figure out the best way to obey traditional law?

I'm sorry, you guys...I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[rward]

Death crouches? Stand up, Death, before you ruin your knees.

Stop being so melodramatic, Tony, Death just lost a contact.

[2xx1xy1JD]

:roll: Again....I've heard it and I don't buy it. All I see is patriarchy excluding women, and a bunch of excuses to make it palatable. And what exactly is NOT fundie about spending so much time trying to figure out the best way to obey traditional law?

I'm sorry, you guys...I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

That's why I started off by asking what we were using as the definition of "fundie", as opposed to "religious". I started a thread with this question several months ago:

http://www.freejinger.org/forums/viewto ... =8&t=13693

The general consensus seemed to be that being fundie meant more than simply being very religious. Traditional Judaism is certainly focused on trying to figure out the best way to obey traditional Jewish law, and that sometimes involves some extreme analysis of minute details. Some may say that it's bordering on OCD - but does that fit the Standard FJ Definition of Fundie? Particularly if a group tends to focus on their own observance, but not be overly concerned about telling others what to do? [i would draw a distinction between a group deciding whether women are obligated in time-bound commandments and whether a man fulfils his obligations by saying Kaddish in front of less than 10 men (which I would consider obsessing over personal observance) vs. attacking women praying as a group at the Western Wall (which is about enforcing specific religious/gender norms on others).]

There is a fair bit of kiruv (outreach) garbage, where they use a bunch of lines that have no real religious source and that nobody takes seriously except when trying to spin something. The issue of whether women are obligated in positive time-bound commandments, though, is legitimately part of traditional Jewish law. IMHO, I don't describe it as fundie unless I'm talking about people who get enraged by this stuff and pretend that a women doing some of these things is going against every rule in the book, when the halacha (Jewish law) merely says that she is not obligated to do these things and when we have examples of pious women who voluntarily obligated themselves.

[bananacat]

I see it as the husband is supposed to lead the wife to be closer to god. Tony acheived this by going atheist and in turn Lina strengthened her faith by turning to god for solace. End result is still the same, to Lina she is closer to god, but the method of getting there wasn't what she had in mind.

BTW can we change the title of this thread? We've pretty much established that we aren't talking about a physical death/suicide. I'm finding the thread title awfully triggering. I know, I have issues..

"I see it as the husband is supposed to lead the wife to be closer to god" Right, it's supposed to work that way, but in this case he managed to fulfill the letter of the saying in a way that is completely different than the intended spirit. Hence the irony.

[bananacat]

:roll: Again....I've heard it and I don't buy it. All I see is patriarchy excluding women, and a bunch of excuses to make it palatable. And what exactly is NOT fundie about spending so much time trying to figure out the best way to obey traditional law?

I'm sorry, you guys...I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Yeah, similar arguments were made against women's suffrage, women being able to have careers and get higher education, and a million other advancements of women's rights. This ridiculous logic-twisting is old, overused, unoriginal, and thoroughly unconvincing.

[shedemei]

Part of the reluctance to challenge this among some Modern Orthodox women stems from the fact that not all Orthodox women WANT to be subject to this obligation (although there are some who do), since it means getting up and attending services before work, making time to pray before sundown, and again in the evening, every day without exception.

I've often wondered about this very phenomenon. As a woman, you get out of a lot of tedious and boring aspects of orthodox practice.

[jaelh]

The modern orthodox discussion reminds me of the profound tension in every woman's life regarding her choices.

No matter how restrictive (or not) the "culture" (for lack of a better word) that women exist within, it's possible to carve out an empowered, or disempowered, position. Part of that process is constructing an understanding of the reasons why you do things; and what those things mean. Meaning is only what we accord to it, nothing else.

For example, if a Muslim women tells you she veils because she feels power comes from removing her self from male view - what does the act mean? If a young American girl dresses in a bikini and enjoys her sexuality - is she liberated, or doing so because she's subject to a hypersexualised society? If a modern Orthodox woman tells you that she loves the ritual of the mivka and niddah because it reminds her husband she is not his property, but rather first scared to God, which is it? is this oppressive or meaningful in a feminist sense?

My point (I have one, I think... :) ) is that the difference between fundie and religious/ oppressed and empowered/ etc etc is often enough in the eye of the beholder. I'm not sure that "fundie" is observing strict rules: there has got to be something more to it than that - to paraphrase a great, maybe it's easiest to say I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it.

I'm not this is really on topic so much a response to bananacat and oncemodest: I get the desire to see certain things as oppressive, prima facie. But there has to be space to, somewhere, acknowledge that people can chose what might is an oppressive system but find a liberated sense of self in the performance of that system. There is no doubt, from their perspective, that the system can be understood to be [liberating/not fundie/etc].* Given we all live within a patriachy, we've all made that peace, in some sense or another. If a hajebi tells someone she finds power in her veil (and her system of belief),* I hope they would accept her experience as valid - even as another woman who has left aside the faith tells them her experience was oppressive. We are individual actors, as well as systemic actors. It's very possible for any one of us to find individual liberty in an oppressive system. If we couldn't, we'd all go mad.

[for what it's worth: I think you can make out an argument that pretty much every system that exists is oppressive, in some form or other - it's just a matter of perspective. MO, thus, is oppressive; Islam, western society; Christianity; Communism; liberalism; etc.. all of it. ]

i hope this makes sense.

*ETA

[wtylcf]

Divorce Dramawatch continues to be mostly uneventful. I check their facebooks every day or two to see if anyone's going to have a public throwdown, and have to be content with scraps of non-info. Points for discretion, I suppose! The main bit of info here is that Lina is still calling this Dodd-lastname lady "Mom" (she must be Tony's mom?)

[ladyamylynn]

Mary Cheeney Dodd is his mom. Following her facebook is good for killing a few brain cells.