We're totally equal....except I'm the boss!

[salex]

DOes he read this site at all, do we know?

He says he runs an orthopedic practice with 2 doctors. If that is the case, he is not the boss, he reports to the doctors. He is the practice manager, but he isn't doing employee reviews of the doctors. He also refers to his employees as "her" when he talks about them, so I"m thinking he doesn't have male employees. WHich would make sense, as a guy who believes women are "lesser" it might be intimidating to have a male employee

He also has a website for his consulting company, which would indicate he has been a consultant for a long time, not a practice manager/office manager, but which job is the lie, who knows. http://www.kenalexander.com/about.html

He fails to recognize that the boss is not equal to the employees in the corporate structure. IF he is a "boss" he is likely paid more, he is held responsible for the employees actions while they are not held responsible for his, and, if he is an owner, partner or shareholder boss, he has many legal liabilities that his employees do not have. If bosses and employees were in fact equal, there would not be offices, corner offices, executive washrooms, differences in pay scales, and they could just pick by lots anyone to be boss.

AND, to be a good boss, the person has to be able to lead--NOT because they have "boss" on their door or in their title, but because they can motivate people to move the company forward. One of the basics of business management theory is that some "official" (titled) leaders are not followed because they don't earn it, while many organizations have unofficial leaders who are followed, regardless of their title.

And that is where the whole "God has appointed me to be your leader/headship--behold my penis as proof" stuff goes wrong. Because the expectation continues to be on this page and on others that the woman must be forced, convinced or force her self to follow the God defined leader, regardless of if he is a good leader or not. Unearned titles won't last in business and they won't be real, even if publically enforced, at home.

Now, for a confession!

I work for my husband. I didn't always, but I do now. And yes, at work, he is the boss (it is his company, along with some stockholders. I was only marginally involved for the first 5 years, i had my own things going, and joined full time when there were several partners and a different CEO.) But now, I report to my CEO husband at work. If I disagree at work and he believes my department should go in a certain direction, we go in that direction. Because HE reports to the board--I don't. He is insured by the company because replacing him could put the company at risk during transition. I am not, because, while it would take someone a while to learn specifics, my job is not as rarefied. He is legally more liable for things that happen within the ocmpany than I am.

We are NOT equal at the office.

However, he is NOT my boss at home. Our rule of thumb is whomever cares the most about a thing decides on that thing. I asked this Ken person for an example of a conflict where he listened to his wife and chose a different path, because I'm trying to figure out what that looks like in a marriage. I can barely think of any in our business relationship, I can think of none in our marriage. And we are equal in our marriage, in virtually every way--we are both liable for our debts, we own things jointly, and we never have the gag making conversations wehre he tells me that no matter how badly I want or believe something, God gave me a vagina so my opinoins don't count.

As far as there not being two bosses in any organization--- if he works for 2 orthodontists who hold equal shares, he has two bosses. And I've worked in organizations where I had 4 bosses, all equal across the org chart--matrix style management. It can be done.

[zcccrv]

Not Burris, but I am Christian as well as feminist, and my husband and I had several discussions about Christian notions of submission once we began discussing the prospect of marriage together. Though many Christians cite the Ephesians 5:22-4 (Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.), they do not continue and cite verses 25-8:"25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself."

Though the verb is different in translation, it is much more similar in the original language, and the command to husbands to love wives as Christ loves the church is as much (if not more) a call to self-sacrifice as is the command to wives to submit. My husband and I and other Christian egalitarians think that such mutual submission wherein both parties try to think of their spouse before themselves is equality in Christ. If one member of a marriage becomes selfish, problems develop, but the ideal is that we try to think of what's best for the other person.

Don't you think it is more sensible for both parties to think what is best for themselves and try to communicate it in a clear and respectable manner? How can anyone know what is best for you better then you yourself can? My proposed way promotes learning and expressing about yourself which comes very handy in life in general- not just in a partnership but also in diverse social and business situations, especially where respect without crossing personal boundaries is groundwork for productivity.

[Shirley MacLaine]

I don't get... you know, a woman's place is in the home (in these people's minds anyway), right? So why is the woman not in charge of the home? Why does the man get to be the boss of his jurisdiction and hers?

[salex]

I don't get... you know, a woman's place is in the home (in these people's minds anyway), right? So why is the woman not in charge of the home? Why does the man get to be the boss of his jurisdiction and hers?

Well, based on the posts of his I've read, he is less interested in the nitty gritty of the household than he is in getting her to submit, admit defeat to his superior manly will, etc, because it really turns him on and makes the sex better.

[emiliawasframed]

Don't you think it is more sensible for both parties to think what is best for themselves and try to communicate it in a clear and respectable manner? How can anyone know what is best for you better then you yourself can? My proposed way promotes learning and expressing about yourself which comes very handy in life in general- not just in a partnership but also in diverse social and business situations, especially where respect without crossing personal boundaries is groundwork for productivity.

It's not that I know what's best for him more than he does. It's that I try to consider his points of view, preferences, etc. before making a decision, because decisions don't just affect me anymore--they affect both of us. I'm sorry if I was unclear before, and you're absolutely right that communication is key. I think a lot of complementarian or patriarchal marriages stifle or shut down communication, and that's not okay.

[kpmom]

We have had so many fundies come here and insist a husband and wife are equal, but the husband should always get the final say in any disagreement.

The logic fail is just unbelievable.

[Minerva]

You know, I bet Ken's employees hate him if he has this attitude towards being a boss.

We have had so many fundies come here and insist a husband and wife are equal, but the husband should always get the final say in any disagreement.

The logic fail is just unbelievable.

You have a nice dog. What breed are they?

[StacyW]

I just looked up the Alexanders and they live in the same city as me. That makes me uncomfortable. Also, he doesn't have orthodontic training, so why would he pick that field as his consultancy's specialty?

[zcccrv]

It's not that I know what's best for him more than he does. It's that I try to consider his points of view, preferences, etc. before making a decision, because decisions don't just affect me anymore--they affect both of us. I'm sorry if I was unclear before, and you're absolutely right that communication is key. I think a lot of complementarian or patriarchal marriages stifle or shut down communication, and that's not okay.

Thanks for the clarification. What you are describing kind of goes without saying for me (otherwise, if both parties disregarded the other there would just be constant conflict which suits no one) so that is probably why I misunderstood you.

[kpmom]

You know, I bet Ken's employees hate him if he has this attitude towards being a boss.

You have a nice dog. What breed are they?

Thanks, Minerva. He's a Golden Retriever. They're very sweet dogs (we have a red one too). I can't get them to submit to me very often, though. Maybe Ken can help.

[wild little fox]

He's at it again in the last bit of this newest post

There is no bigger turn on for most men than to know their ideas and desires are respected and honored by their wife. Love and respect really do work to build a successful marriage that is pleasing to God, and submission gets to the heart of trust and intimacy in a marriage, just as it does in our relationship with God

She referenced 50 shades of gray, didn't read what she said about it, but I suspect it is right up their alley, though we'd never know.

That's it. Use a bit of truth (most humans want to be respected, loved and to know their views are respected.) Then wrap it in ugly misogyny ... what a pretty bow!! But is alright because I'm not forcing her to submit. It is her decision after all! And it is the only way we can have a good marriage. This is what makes God and I love her.

And to think, I bought into this... GAH!

[Boltingmadonna]

The best discovery a Christian man can find to unlock his disagreeable wife

Why does she have to be "unlocked"? Is she handcuffed or something?

I don't understand why communication is always presented as a win-lose situation where one person has to boss the other one around. There is a third option: present your ideas and thoughts, and then reach a consensus you can both live with. If one partner feels very unhappy about a decision, I don't understand why a loving friend would want to push that decision through without any regard for the other's feelings. How is that love? I've been married for over 40 years, and we've never had a situation where it was necessary for one of us to take over and start giving orders. We've always worked out a good solution by cooperating. It's just NOT true that somebody has to have the deciding vote. If you reach a total impasse, it's a warning signal that you both need to back off and defer a decision until you get on the same page again.

[Koala]

Now the wife is a waitress:

Waitress is a great illustration... because it is all about serving.

:roll:

Abused women are the wrong crowd:

And I have to add Questioning... you are running in the wrong circles if you are hearing all these stories of abuse, or you are working in a shelter for abused women.

My mother was abused. Ken isn't fit to wipe the dirt off her shoes.

And even in all of my hundreds of non-christian client's marriages, I have never seen or heard of one of them being abusive towards their wife, but I have seen wives closed up, difficult, and throw negative body language all over their husbands.

Because Ken is a marriage consultant? Oh, that's right, he works in teeth! I totally forgot how you tell your business consultant about abusing your wife/being abused. :doh:

I also like how he takes this opportunity to point out that he's never seen a husband doing it wrong, but boy the things he could tell you about the wives he's seen :evil:

[Minerva]

Thanks, Minerva. He's a Golden Retriever. They're very sweet dogs (we have a red one too). I can't get them to submit to me very often, though. Maybe Ken can help.

Clearly you're not giving him enough creepy hugs.

[Minerva]

Now the wife is a waitress:

:roll:

Abused women are the wrong crowd:

My mother was abused. Ken isn't fit to wipe the dirt off her shoes.

Because Ken is a marriage consultant? Oh, that's right, he works in teeth! I totally forgot how you tell your business consultant about abusing your wife/being abused. :doh:

I also like how he takes this opportunity to point out that he's never seen a husband doing it wrong, but boy the things he could tell you about the wives he's seen :evil:

Sure Ken, spousal abuse only happens in certain visible circles. This guy's ignorance is unbelievable. I wonder if they even know what abuse is. And that makes me worry about Lori.

[VooDooChild]

Now the wife is a waitress:

:roll:

Abused women are the wrong crowd:

My mother was abused. Ken isn't fit to wipe the dirt off her shoes.

Because Ken is a marriage consultant? Oh, that's right, he works in teeth! I totally forgot how you tell your business consultant about abusing your wife/being abused. :doh:

I also like how he takes this opportunity to point out that he's never seen a husband doing it wrong, but boy the things he could tell you about the wives he's seen :evil:

OMFG! I can't even. He doesn't see the men doing it wrong because abusers tend go abuse behind closed doors. What an asshat!

Also to the poster that responded to me (sorry, I wasn't paying attention to names) what you describe just sounds to me like mutual respect. This is something normal people (even us heathens) do in healthy relationships. What does that have to do with submission? I'm sure I appear thick, but I can't wrap my brain around it. That verse always read to me as: If I have to submit (give in) to God's will and I'm also told to submit to my husband , so then I have to give in to his will. Like I said, I'm thick, so it is not making any sense.

[debrand]

This might be one of the creepiest things I've ever read.

And what if the woman continues to do what she wishes.

Example: The wife decides she isn't going to church

The husband hugs his wife and tells her that she will do as he says

His wife responds, "Fuck you. I'm staying in bed Sunday."

Sunday comes and she simply refuses to dress or get out of bed. What is he going to do?

No matter what Ken likes to believe, he actually can't force his wife to do anything. The only way he could force her is if he started abusing her. If my husband started that crap with me, I'd do the exact opposite just for spite. The situation would not be pretty

[wild little fox]

Sure Ken, spousal abuse only happens in certain visible circles. This guy's ignorance is unbelievable. I wonder if they even know what abuse is. And that makes me worry about Lori.

I agree. He doesn't know, nor does he care how his wife feels or he wouldn't say these things. The things he says would never, ever cross his mind if he had a healthy view of women, men and if he knew how to love unconditionally.

[wild little fox]

I find it telling that they mentioned staying away from women who are abused or working at a shelter. It really sets off my alarms in looking for signs if abuse. It also pings isolation (another symptom of abuse). Granted, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a marriage that is like what Ken and Lori say theirs is like IS abusive. I wonder if there is any physical abuse :( I wouldn't be surprised.

[quincygal]

OK following those bible verses does not keep a marriage afloat. It keeps a scared woman "in her place". Until your spouse threatens to throw you out based on his disapproval of your voting choice in your state's primary.

By the way, when I reopened this page, it had an ad for single guys at the top of the page. I didn't see them as Match.com guys, but rather as headships, lol!!

[wild little fox]

OK following those bible verses does not keep a marriage afloat. It keeps a scared woman "in her place". Until your spouse threatens to throw you out based on his disapproval of your voting choice in your state's primary.

By the way, when I reopened this page, it had an ad for single guys at the top of the page. I didn't see them as Match.com guys, but rather as headships, lol!!

There is a lot of "digging into the culture" to find what Paul really meant, but I no longer buy any of it. I have heard many reasons why the same verses are interpreted wrong. Christians who are egalitarian cannot even come up with a consensus on Paul's misinterpreted misogyny. I think Paul was an asshole, that's why!

[Miggy]

I don't get... you know, a woman's place is in the home (in these people's minds anyway), right? So why is the woman not in charge of the home? Why does the man get to be the boss of his jurisdiction and hers?

She is ... read Proverbs. The Proverbs wife sees a piece of land, buys it, organises for it to be farmed. She is responsible for the running of the household and for all the people in it. She does everything around the house so that the husband can go off to work and does not need to worry himself about it.

Fundies all like to say they are Proverbs women but none of them actually live it out.

[dairyfreelife]

There is a lot of "digging into the culture" to find what Paul really meant, but I no longer buy any of it. I have heard many reasons why the same verses are interpreted wrong. Christians who are egalitarian cannot even come up with a consensus on Paul's misinterpreted misogyny. I think Paul was an asshole, that's why!

People forget to look at the time period and see that Paul was speaking to people at a time where women were property in many places. Paul wasn't ahead of his time, but we should know better now. Just because they did it in a book or someone said this in an ancient text doesn't mean we follow it. I doubt Ken would approve of owning slaves, would he? He doesn't go on and on about how making people who owe him money should be slaves and how to treat them because god says it's ok. Why go on and on about treating women worse than I treat my pets? It's not year 13 AD, it's 2013. Move forward. FYI Ken and Lori: The wheel was invented many years ago, people now own vehicles and fly. Women are no longer sex toys and baby poppers received as prizes from war.

[Minerva]

I find it telling that they mentioned staying away from women who are abused or working at a shelter. It really sets off my alarms in looking for signs if abuse. It also pings isolation (another symptom of abuse). Granted, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a marriage that is like what Ken and Lori say theirs is like IS abusive. I wonder if there is any physical abuse :( I wouldn't be surprised.

I wonder if they'd be open about it if someone happened to ask innocently in the comments.

[YPestis]

All people are created equal....some more equal than others?

I think when fundies say they are "equal", they mean their value is "equal before God", not that they are equal in this world. They like to use terms like "equal" and "complementary marriage" because it sounds modern and benign. The man will (patiently) listen to the women, then decide on the best of course action based on that input, you know, like the military or the business world.

Yet hundies' ideas of submission is not how the business world or the military works (no matter how they attempt to interchangeably use the terms). People start at the bottom and work themselves to the top. In the military, you start out as a grunt if you enlist. Officers have to work through officer candidate school, ROTC or one of the service academies. No one is "born" into a position of power. In corporations, people work their way from the rank and file into the CEO position. Self-employed people don't start by hiring a bunch of people. They work hard and implement creative strategies to earn the capital to hire more people that they can boss around. Notice how that is different from "man is ordained by God to boss women"?

In contrast, fundies believe men are "born" into position of leadership and thus automatically given their exalted position due to their Y chromosome. They don't spend time learning to take orders from others, at least no more than their female counterpart during childhood. They don't have to "prove" themselves worthy of leading a woman. They just have to have a penis and get married and voila! They are now given headship.

The other thing that irritates me is this idea that women should obey men even when they are clearly wrong. Even our modern military says soldiers have the right (and duty) to disobey illegal orders. In corporations, subordinates are still liable for their own actions and they can't hide behind their boss. Submission says that women have to follow men even when they feel the men's decision is wrong. Clearly, the world does not operate on that premise.

Finally, a good leader isn't one that, when unable to convince others of their actions, decide to pull rank and just have everyone do it. Good leaders will listen to their subordinates, will explain to them why their idea is better, and not have this "God complex" that they just know better and that everyone should just "trust" them. Trust is earned. Respect is earned. Leaders are made.