We're totally equal....except I'm the boss!

[Mango]

I really think we should start googlebombing (Doug Phillips is a Tool) Ken Alexander has a wee penis.

[snarkbillie]

All people are created equal....some more equal than others?

I think when fundies say they are "equal", they mean their value is "equal before God", not that they are equal in this world. They like to use terms like "equal" and "complementary marriage" because it sounds modern and benign. The man will (patiently) listen to the women, then decide on the best of course action based on that input, you know, like the military or the business world.

Yet hundies' ideas of submission is not how the business world or the military works (no matter how they attempt to interchangeably use the terms). People start at the bottom and work themselves to the top. In the military, you start out as a grunt if you enlist. Officers have to work through officer candidate school, ROTC or one of the service academies. No one is "born" into a position of power. In corporations, people work their way from the rank and file into the CEO position. Self-employed people don't start by hiring a bunch of people. They work hard and implement creative strategies to earn the capital to hire more people that they can boss around. Notice how that is different from "man is ordained by God to boss women"?

In contrast, fundies believe men are "born" into position of leadership and thus automatically given their exalted position due to their Y chromosome. They don't spend time learning to take orders from others, at least no more than their female counterpart during childhood. They don't have to "prove" themselves worthy of leading a woman. They just have to have a penis and get married and voila! They are now given headship.

The other thing that irritates me is this idea that women should obey men even when they are clearly wrong. Even our modern military says soldiers have the right (and duty) to disobey illegal orders. In corporations, subordinates are still liable for their own actions and they can't hide behind their boss. Submission says that women have to follow men even when they feel the men's decision is wrong. Clearly, the world does not operate on that premise.

Finally, a good leader isn't one that, when unable to convince others of their actions, decide to pull rank and just have everyone do it. Good leaders will listen to their subordinates, will explain to them why their idea is better, and not have this "God complex" that they just know better and that everyone should just "trust" them. Trust is earned. Respect is earned. Leaders are made.

This is really great. I have been trying to explain this to someone for years and years but couldn't put it into concise logic like you just did.

[moodygirl86]

The difference between a marriage and a job is that your boss is legally obliged to pay you in return for "obeying", and you can take him/her to court if they don't keep to their end of the agreement...

[Arete]

I am now going to allow my inner bitch to come out and play by saying don't waste your time worrying about Lori. Lori gets off on this submissive helpmeet bullshit with Ken. I actually believe it gives her psychological satisfaction. She also gets a great deal of satisfaction by advising other idiots to submit even if you are being beaten, your kids are hungry, and your husband is an axe murderer. This isn't Christianity or Christian marriage, it is kink, plain and simple. When they take it outside the boudaries of their personal relationship by advice blogging, it is just downright evil.

Nothing against kink when it does not destroy your life or someone elses, but FUCK!!!, I really hate it when people like Lori and Ken peddle their kink as some kind of profound insights into the mind of God or human relationships. :roll:

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Ken. KEN. Do as the other nice FJ ladies have said and stop reading your "how to be a big manly BDSM dom" blogs at the same time as your Bible. I know they have similarities, but that's not really "toggle back and forth between tabs" kind of reading, dude.

[salex]

There is a lot of "digging into the culture" to find what Paul really meant, but I no longer buy any of it. I have heard many reasons why the same verses are interpreted wrong. Christians who are egalitarian cannot even come up with a consensus on Paul's misinterpreted misogyny. I think Paul was an asshole, that's why!

[Koala]

In the interest of not starting yet another "Lori" thread, I'm going to post this here. From today's post:

We home schooled our children through junior high. All I had them do was read for two hours a day and do math.

:doh:

[debrand]

The difference between a marriage and a job is that your boss is legally obliged to pay you in return for "obeying", and you can take him/her to court if they don't keep to their end of the agreement...

You can also leave a job with a incompetent or unfair boss.

[wild little fox]

Yep, just walk out the door and possibly receive unemployment benefits while you look for work. Leaving a spouse is not that easy.

[laura oz]

There is a lot of "digging into the culture" to find what Paul really meant, but I no longer buy any of it. I have heard many reasons why the same verses are interpreted wrong. Christians who are egalitarian cannot even come up with a consensus on Paul's misinterpreted misogyny. I think Paul was an asshole, that's why!

I was reared in a fundie-lite family and I had to read the whole Bible each year and memorize verses. That made me interested in religion and I read a lot more about it. You nailed it. Paul had a serious hate for women. I don't think it was because he was a product of his times, but because he was an arrogant ass who wanted to feel more important by making someone else feel inferior. Dick.

[Shirley MacLaine]

She is ... read Proverbs. The Proverbs wife sees a piece of land, buys it, organises for it to be farmed. She is responsible for the running of the household and for all the people in it. She does everything around the house so that the husband can go off to work and does not need to worry himself about it.

Fundies all like to say they are Proverbs women but none of them actually live it out.

Yeah, I'm familiar with ~the Proverbs 31 woman.~ I wasn't entirely being serious.

[lilwriter85]

I find it telling that they mentioned staying away from women who are abused or working at a shelter. It really sets off my alarms in looking for signs if abuse. It also pings isolation (another symptom of abuse). Granted, I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY that a marriage that is like what Ken and Lori say theirs is like IS abusive. I wonder if there is any physical abuse :( I wouldn't be surprised.

Since I started reading Lori's blog, I've suspected that emotional abuse goes on. A lot of her postings hint at it. The part about staying away from abused women and shelters make me wonder now if physical abuse goes on. Ken looks creepy in a lot of his pictures. He sometimes creeps me out more than the PP and Steve Maxwell.

[lilwriter85]

I am now going to allow my inner bitch to come out and play by saying don't waste your time worrying about Lori. Lori gets off on this submissive helpmeet bullshit with Ken. I actually believe it gives her psychological satisfaction. She also gets a great deal of satisfaction by advising other idiots to submit even if you are being beaten, your kids are hungry, and your husband is an axe murderer. This isn't Christianity or Christian marriage, it is kink, plain and simple. When they take it outside the boudaries of their personal relationship by advice blogging, it is just downright evil.

Nothing against kink when it does not destroy your life or someone elses, but FUCK!!!, I really hate it when people like Lori and Ken peddle their kink as some kind of profound insights into the mind of God or human relationships. :roll:

I have to agree with you. She does get off the submissive helpmeet bullshit like you said. She is a giant asshole and has crappy attitudes towards women and her constant fangirling over the Pearls is sick. Those are the reasons, I find it hard to sympathize with her or even worry about her. She also pissed me of in that recent posting where she mentioned advising a pregnant woman to have sex with her husband.

[StacyW]

I was reared in a fundie-lite family and I had to read the whole Bible each year and memorize verses. That made me interested in religion and I read a lot more about it. You nailed it. Paul had a serious hate for women. I don't think it was because he was a product of his times, but because he was an arrogant ass who wanted to feel more important by making someone else feel inferior. Dick.

Is this true even when you eliminate the books that scholars think were not actually written by him? I've read several of Bart Ehrman's books that analyze the New Testament and iirc most non-literalist scholars believe that Paul only wrote a few of the books attributed to him.

[treehugger]

I tend to take Paul's views of marriage with a grain of salt - after all, he wasn't married - so how would he know? Also, isn't he the one who advocated a single life for both men and women over marriage? Come on fundies - what is your answer for that one?

[wild little fox]

As for Lori. I don't like to see anyone abused. She is in it so deep she cannot see straight. They are both very ill people.

How she advised women to have sex with their husbands no matter what makes me hate her. It shows how removed she is from reality.

[wild little fox]

IOW: sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick!

[laura oz]

Is this true even when you eliminate the books that scholars think were not actually written by him? I've read several of Bart Ehrman's books that analyze the New Testament and iirc most non-literalist scholars believe that Paul only wrote a few of the books attributed to him.

I've got to be honest. I haven't read or researched much since organized religion and I parted ways about 10 years ago. It sounds like there have been some interesting arguments made that I'm not aware of and now I'm curious. Got any recommendations on reading material? If I've misjudged Paul then I feel like a dick.

[ADoyle90815]

As for Lori. I don't like to see anyone abused. She is in it so deep she cannot see straight. They are both very ill people.

How she advised women to have sex with their husbands no matter what makes me hate her. It shows how removed she is from reality.

QFT. Ken does have those vibes that suggest that he's emotionally and sexually abusive as he's convinced Lori that one of the duties of a wife is to have sex whenever the husband demands it.

[StacyW]

I've got to be honest. I haven't read or researched much since organized religion and I parted ways about 10 years ago. It sounds like there have been some interesting arguments made that I'm not aware of and now I'm curious. Got any recommendations on reading material? If I've misjudged Paul then I feel like a dick.

Just Bart Ehrman - I liked [link=http://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-Historical-Introduction-Christian/dp/0199757534/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360477041&sr=1-3&keywords=bart+ehrman]The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings[/link] ETA I think the book of his that I read was [link=http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360477041&sr=1-5&keywords=bart+ehrman]Misquoting Jesus[/link]

Your user title could be "Misjudged Paul." ;)

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

The Pauline epistle that is most often cited by fundies as an example for women, Titus, is widely considered by religious studies scholars (I cannot speak for theologians) to be pseudo-Pauline, i.e., written by someone else and attributed to Paul. It is one of a group of the most disputed Pauline epistles. One of the reasons for this (Ehrman has a great overview of this in the book StacyW cited) is that the sentiment about women expressed in that letter is more in line with a later period of Christianity, in which the second coming was coming to be understood as non necessarily imminent and Christianity sought acceptance in the Roman Empire by portraying itself as non-threatening to Roman custom. In earliest Christianity, there were many tales in circulation about female martyrs and ascetics who left their families and children behind - and this was portrayed as A GOOD THING, to none of the Romans' amusement. The whole "stay home, be meek and sober, obey your husband" thing is expressive of a sentiment that is not contemporary to Paul's Christianity.

[lilwriter85]

This is a bit OT, other mentioned Lori's homeschooling methods earler in this thread because of blog comments from yesterday. She again responded about her homeschooling methods and thought the most recent response was weird.

Great post. I'm a little curious in your homeschooling days when your were a homeschooling mother. I am trying to figure out how to expose my daughter to things to help her become interested in things and know that reading is our best way. Seems to not get I to our day much. Would be willing to share a bit about your days?

Lori Alexander · 10 hours ago

I just found great historical fiction books and biographies of missionaries for them to read. I used Sonlight curriculum. They had an amazing assortment of great literature. When they are little, read to them a lot and develope a love of learning so when they get older, they will enjoy reading. They would spend two hours in their bedrooms reading and then an hour of math. They were completely prepared for high school and did great in school. If they can read well, most of the subjects are easy for them.

I think it weird that she would use historical fiction books for her kids to learn about history. Unless she meant to type non fiction. Many historical fiction books are good teaching tools especially when teaching about wars and certain events. But using nothing but historical fiction books, seems a bit crazy to me.

[laura oz]

Thanks for the information StacyW and OnceModestTwiceShy. Between the book club and this I'm going to have eyestrain. And I'm liking the idea for the user title :lol:

[treehugger]

I think it weird that she would use historical fiction books for her kids to learn about history. Unless she meant to type non fiction. Many historical fiction books are good teaching tools especially when teaching about wars and certain events. But using nothing but historical fiction books, seems a bit crazy to me.

I was actually homeschooled using Sonlight curriculum. If you use the whole curriculum you do not just read historical fiction. Actually, they include a lot of classical literature. And it uses several secular history textbook. It also uses secular science books and we learned all about evolution. :o Of course, since you can modify the curriculum according to your tastes not everyone is exposed to these books. FWIW, my sisters and I went to secular colleges and universities and did extremely well.

[Koala]

To hear her tell it, she contributed precious little to their education. I would never underscore the value of reading, but there is more to an education.