What's with the term "unborn child"? RANT

[darareaksmey]

I'm with JFC. "Unborn" seems unnecessary when you know or can see the person carrying the fetus. But even "unborn" bugs me far less than "preborn," which as far as I've seen is the sole province of rabid anti-choicers.

[2xx1xy1JD]

See to me, I think, using the term baby or unborn baby or child, when it's actually a fetus, perpetuates their argument against abortion, as a baby is a human being, someone who should be protected and granted the privileges that come with personhood. Throwing around the term, "unborn baby" IMO, attaches my definition of baby to a fetus. If this is the case, then a woman's rights over her own body are the same as the "unborn baby's." That's just why I don't think the term should be used lightly. I think it adds fuel to the anti-choice arguments.

Wow, I'm actually going to agree with JFC here.

To me, the issue is the fact that most legislation purporting to "protect' fetuses actually ends up being a gross invasion of the state into the body of a woman. Period. I don't believe that the state should have any jurisdiction over the body of a mentally competent woman, regardless of stage of gestation.

My position has NOTHING to do with the value of the fetus, or the morality of aborting or mistreating it. IMHO, the pro-choice movement goes up the wrong path when it doesn't acknowledge the connection that some women will feel when expecting a child, or even the strong feelings that others may feel about the fetus being a potential life.

Fetus (or more accurately - zygote, then embryo, then fetus) is a medical term. In everyday discussion, most people don't talk about their fetus. If someone wants to talk about her own "unborn baby", that's her fucking right and it's completely disrespectful to dictate her language or feelings.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I'd agree with this. I'd also say it's fine to use 'having a baby' to refer to a woman who has herself indicated she is having a wanted baby.

"Unborn child" isn't a phrase I've often heard outside Christian circles or in legal cases, for example when a pregnant woman is attacked or injured and seeks justice for the loss of a wanted child.

I've also heard "unborn child" in legal cases - for example, in estate cases. A guy can die and have part of his estate go to an unborn child.

[PennySycamore]

The term unborn child began to be used by the anti choice people precisely for political reason. -to humanize the fetus. It is not that women never said unborn baby or referred to their fetus as a baby, but their use of it was strictly political.

The term I really hate is preborn baby or just preborn. That term was coined by Judie Brown of the American Life League which has always been extreme. They called for a banning of contraception from the beginning with most other anti-choice groups did not.

[2xx1xy1JD]

The term unborn child began to be used by the anti choice people precisely for political reason. -to humanize the fetus. It is not that women never said unborn baby or referred to their fetus as a baby, but their use of it was strictly political.

The term I really hate is preborn baby or just preborn. That term was coined by Judie Brown of the American Life League which has always been extreme. They called for a banning of contraception from the beginning with most other anti-choice groups did not.

I have never seen the term "preborn" anywhere except anti-abortion tracts.

"Unborn baby/child", however, is used outside of the anti-abortion movement.

Traditionally, the legal term used was a child "en ventre sa mere". With the move to use more plain English, this term is often replaced in modern court cases with "unborn child" or "unborn baby". Here's what came up when I did a search of the term in cases for Ontario, Canada:

http://www.canlii.com/eliisa/search.do? ... =tribunals

Aside from abortion, it comes up in insurance cases, mental health, DNA sample cases, requests for expedited proceedings, human rights tribunals, criminal cases, child protection cases, medical malpractice cases, medicare entitlement, motor vehicle accident cases, etc.

[O Latin]

Hmm, I never thought of it as political. I always thought of it as one of those "nicer" terms people use instead of the actual correct medical term, kind of like how I would say "I have to use the restroom," rather than spelling out exactly what I'm going to do in there, or refer to a man's "private parts" instead of his penis. I think it depends on the context, too. If I'm discussing abortion on FJ, I would probably say "fetus," but if I'm talking to a group of ladies at church about how somebody's relative is pregnant, I probably wouldn't use that term (I would probably just say "baby," though, rather than "unborn baby"). I know some people are sticklers for always using the correct medical term for everything, but I think there are situations where it would just be awkward to be talking about a fetus.

[SpeshulTaterTot]

A good friend of mine is an OB/GYN and absolutely pro-choice. She'll talk about a fetus up until a certain point in the pregnancy, then she starts refering to it as the unborn or the baby. When one of our friends was pregnant, she'd talk about the baby when it was about buying stuff for the kid, and the fetus when there were medical questions.

Personally, depending on who's pregnant, I talk about the baby or the brat. Because with some parents, you just know they'll have brats.

[Guest Anonymous]

When I was pregnant with my son we called him skeletor (from the old He-Man series) because that is what his ultrasound picture looked like, a skeleton (20 years ago, technology wasn't so great)

I'm pro-choice to a certain extent as I don't agree with abortion past when a baby (em, fetus) is viable outside the womb. When I was pregnant or a friend is pregnant I always refer to it as a baby.

So if the fetus/baby has a condition that is incompatible with life and will lead to a painful death you think a woman should be forced to carry it to term and watch it suffer? What about if a pregnant woman becomes life-threateningly ill? Because that's pretty much the only time a late term abortion is legal, and pretty much the only reason women have them at that point.

Do you think that seven or eight months pregnant women regularly decide to have abortions on a whim?

I know I may sound combative, but these are honest questions. It bugs me when people do the "late term abortions are so bad!" thing, because in reality they are 1.) extremely rare 2.) very restricted by law and 3.) almost always performed when a wanted pregnancy has gone catastrophically wrong.

[Ramona]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "fetus" outside of a textbook... Every pregnant woman I've known called her baby a baby right from the beginning.

[PennySycamore]

So if the fetus/baby has a condition that is incompatible with life and will lead to a painful death you think a woman should be forced to carry it to term and watch it suffer? What about if a pregnant woman becomes life-threateningly ill? Because that's pretty much the only time a late term abortion is legal, and pretty much the only reason women have them at that point.

Do you think that seven or eight months pregnant women regularly decide to have abortions on a whim?

I know I may sound combative, but these are honest questions. It bugs me when people do the "late term abortions are so bad!" thing, because in reality they are 1.) extremely rare 2.) very restricted by law and 3.) almost always performed when a wanted pregnancy has gone catastrophically wrong.

Brava, Lissar! :clap: :clap:

[Austin]

When I'm talking in general, especially about choice issues, I always say "fetus".

[Becket70]

The one that gets me is "Partial-Birth Abortion". That is a made up term for late-term abortion and was designed to envoke an emotional response. Sadly, it seems like it is just an accepted term as if it is some kind of medical term, which it is not.

[Jana814]

That's kind of cute! Reminds me of when Phoebe sang to her fetus on Friends - "Are you in there little fetus, in nine months will you come greet us, I will buy you some Adidas . . ."

I agree that is really cute!! I also loved the Phoebe song on Friends!! Just wished it had more verses!

[BlackHawk]

I searched through the old threads & couldn't find anything, so....

This has really frustrated me for some time - the use of the term "unborn child" or "unborn baby" to describe a fetus. It seems to me that it is a very politicized term, likely made up by the anti-choice movement, to give personhood and humanness to a fetus. I've also noticed that the term is being used by many pro-choice people now, likely out of habit from hearing it so many times.

I'm just wondering, when did the term "unborn" start to replace the regular use of fetus to describe what it actually is...a growing fetus? The first time I heard it was from my (pregnant) high school teacher who referred to her fetus as her "unborn child." I actually laughed because I thought she was joking when she used the term.

So, a) any idea when its use became widespread?

b) for those who claim to be pro-choice, why do you use the term?

This has been frustrating me for awhile now. Thanks for letting me rant! :evil:

I think each set of parents have to choose how they refer to their children, seriously. I don't see this as solely political. I understand, in abortion literature there shouldn't be mention of the fetus as a baby because scientifically it is not. However, when a person chooses to continue their pregnancy, they can call their fetus whatever they want.

Personally, when baby girl's mom was pregnant with her, she referred to her as the fetus or "your baby" (meaning our baby (partner and me)). When speaking to her, we respected her choices and referred to baby as "the fetus". Among ourselves, baby girl was referred to as baby. We bought this for baby, or that for baby. To us, she was a baby. If we had known the baby's sex we probably would have called her baby girl, but we didn't so baby sufficed. Even now, with not getting baby girl, we do not regret our decision to give baby an identity while she was still forming. I don't think everyone who refers to their fetus as a child is saying anything political.

[MrsKay]

I'm rather fond of the term "parasite" when referring to my own fetus - others mostly are not. When I'm pregnant and speaking to family and friends, I use a variety of terms - it all depends on my mood. If I'm feeling maternal and happy, and/or speaking to my grandmother, I'll say "baby". If I'm puking my guts out or in some other form of pregnancy-related misery, I'll say "parasite", "little monster", or whatever joking term gets me through the day. When speaking to medical professionals, I say "fetus" until I'm in the viable stage of pregnancy, unless I'm experiencing a complication that puts the pregnancy in jeopardy. In that case, I still may say "embryo" or "fetus", but if it's a case where the doctors may advise me to make a choice to abort, and I'm not okay with that, I might say "baby" to make my feelings more clear on the issue.

When my friends become pregnant, I generally congratulate them on their embryo or fetus, usually in a tongue-in-cheek tone. Of course, if I'm not sure, I'll first ask if congratulations or condolences are preferred. That's just how I am - no one has slugged me or told me it's offensive, so I don't feel a need to change anything at this time.

[lovefromgirl]

MrsKay does what I do; I don't assume congratulations are in order. I ask. Hasn't gone too terribly wrong for me.

The wording is all about the context for me as well. Is it a wanted growth? "Unborn baby" doesn't offend me in the slightest. You rock that term. You rock it all the way to Labor and Delivery. Not such a wanted growth? I'm cool with "parasite", "fetus", etc.

What shits me is when other people try to impose wording on me (and I'd be a massive hypocrite if I did the same). I had a boyfriend who couldn't stand that I used "it" to refer to hypothetical offspring. It isn't as if we've got a viable gender-neutral singular alternative to refer to sentient life. Would make a lot of lives easier, wouldn't it? I'd say "they" offends me more than "unborn baby" or "parasite" or whatEVER.

FFS, if you're pro-choice, shouldn't you also be pro-choice of language?

[dairyfreelife]

Politically, unborn child can be grating for it's anti-choice involvement.

Legally, it's been used often and I see no problem.

Medically, embryo, fetus are used more becuase they are the medical and scientific terms after all. But I know doctors who will refer to the fetus late term as baby with the expecting parents.

Personally, I don't see any issue with someone calling the fetus in their belly a baby or unborn baby or child. I imagine if I ever become pregnant, I'd probably not say baby, just pregnant for the first trimester if asked about it due to the higher risk of miscarriage. After that I would probably start saying "I'm having a baby", "The baby is due in April" or whatever because I will probably start to prepare for having a baby at that point and the goal will be to have a baby. Things can do wrong still, but the hope is that everything will turn out okay and I'll have a healthy, happy baby in a few months. I know people who have said, "I"m hoping the kid will have her brains", "I know I'm gonna spoil this child rotten". I never took an issue with it. They're happy and want a child. They are seeing the future and hoping and dreaming about their baby, because to them that's their goal...to have a baby, a child. I don't think anyone I know ever intended it to be a pro-life thing. Though without a doubt, I believe pro-lifers do use the baby thing and push it for their political moves absolutely. Really, they need to just butt out and let parents do what they want and call their fetus whatever they want while it's in the womb. Being pro-choice doesn't mean you can't want and be excited with hope for a baby. I think many pro-lifers don't get this.

[desertvixen]

For that reason, I don't think of "unborn child" as being politicized when it's used by the pregnant woman herself, as this usage is informed by an individual woman wanting to have a child. It's the imposition of this usage onto a woman who might not use it herself that has political implications.

I'd agree with this. I always referred to my daughter as the baby or the MicroVixen (after we knew she was a she) but that's my very much wanted pregnancy.

[Coconut Flan]

A clarification in that a person can want a child very much and still call the fetus endearingly the parasite especially when the parasite causes a lot of pregnancy problems.

[JeanneD]

A clarification in that a person can want a child very much and still call the fetus endearingly the parasite especially when the parasite causes a lot of pregnancy problems.

This. Even if it is a desperately wanted child, it is okay to feel frustrated with the downsides of pregnancy. It is okay to acknowledge difficulty with pregnancy.

[SealFan1963]

So if the fetus/baby has a condition that is incompatible with life and will lead to a painful death you think a woman should be forced to carry it to term and watch it suffer? What about if a pregnant woman becomes life-threateningly ill? Because that's pretty much the only time a late term abortion is legal, and pretty much the only reason women have them at that point.

Do you think that seven or eight months pregnant women regularly decide to have abortions on a whim?

I know I may sound combative, but these are honest questions. It bugs me when people do the "late term abortions are so bad!" thing, because in reality they are 1.) extremely rare 2.) very restricted by law and 3.) almost always performed when a wanted pregnancy has gone catastrophically wrong.

Yes, You sound very combative. I wasn't suggesting any laws be changed, I was stating my personal belief. Last I checked I was entitled to my opinion without explaining anything to you.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yes, You sound very combative. I wasn't suggesting any laws be changed, I was stating my personal belief. Last I checked I was entitled to my opinion without explaining anything to you.

You certainly don't have to explain anything to me, but posting on a message board usually means you're interested in having a conversation in regards to the subject that you're posting about. If you're making pronouncements and feedback is unwelcome, maybe try a blog post with the comments turned off instead.

Your statement (to me) is much like saying "I don't like it when people have limbs amputated." Well okay, I doubt people who have limbs amputated like it much either. Unfortunately sometimes there are circumstances when amputation is necessary. But no one does it for funsies and you can't go have the doctor whack off your arm just because you feel like it. Your statement was silly unless you do believe that people like treemom should be forced to carry pregnancies to term no matter what with no regard or compassion for specific circumstances.

My comment was made because a lot of times people who say they are against late term abortions haven't thought out the whys and hows involved in them. I can think of several posters here who have said they changed their minds about late term abortions after looking at the statistics involved and hearing personal stories of women who had them. If it truly is your personal belief that a woman should not be able to terminate a pregnancy where the fetus will be born only to live a short life of excruciating pain and then die, I am very interested in knowing your reasoning for that because it doesn't make sense to me at all.

[maybeizfundie]

I don't think it's a new phrase at all. And looking up "fetus" in various dictionaries, "unborn young" and "unborn offspring" show up in the definitions commonly. I don't speak like a dictionary though, so in day to day conversation I would tend to use unborn baby. Generally I'd just use baby except that it complicates conversation because people assume that "baby" as a stand alone label means one that's been born, so unless there's some context indicating baby is still on the inside, "unborn baby" it is.

Maybe it's regional but I can't imagine talking excitedly about my fetus would go over very well in most social settings. :lol:

[MrsKay]

This. Even if it is a desperately wanted child, it is okay to feel frustrated with the downsides of pregnancy. It is okay to acknowledge difficulty with pregnancy.

Absolutely. I have fertility issues that make me miscarry almost every pregnancy I've ever carried (almost all of them were wanted, so it wasn't like I ever got much relief from it), and the pregnancies that have resulted in live births have been difficult in different aspects. My first was insanely easy in the aches and pains and general discomfort area - the only "normal" physical issues that I can recall from that pregnancy were insane acid reflux, and 24/7 puking. Still, even THAT was hard, and only seems easy because my other pregnancies have been horrendous! I did have serious complications with that first pregnancy, but at the time, as dangerous as they were, they weren't that miserable to go through compared to a lot of other things that could have happened. Being very young and naive has its perks at times.

My last baby arrived after 6 years of surgery, medication, and miscarriages; the delivery team in the OR was almost as excited and emotional as I was. My pregnancy was fucking brutal, and I frequently referred to him as my parasite or my spawn. My daughter dubbed him "vampire baby" and called him EJ in honor of "Breaking Dawn". He was - and still is! - SO insanely wanted and adored, but it was not rainbows and sunshine and dancing in meadows in flowing white dresses. Dark humor got me through a lot of it, and there were times when I bitched to a couple of trusted people in confidence about how miserable the entire process was. Saying that women MUST be happy and lovey dovey about every aspect of pregnancy and motherhood is more bullshit that dehumanizes us and takes away our ownership of our bodies, minds and emotions.

[fundyfunland]

When a pregnant woman is killed the person responsible is often charged with two deaths, not one.

Which is why the term unborn disturbs me so much. It opens the door to 2 manslaughter convictions. Before you know it, the person who kills an unborn (ie. a gynecologist who performs abortions) will be charged with murder because they caused the death of the unborn. Yikes!!