What's with the term "unborn child"? RANT

[Vex]

I have no problem with people using the term 'unborn child' in causal conversation, because as someone else mentioned, they want the foetus, they already love the foetus, they're planning for it to be a part of their lives. If I were pregnant I wouldn't use the term, but I would think of it as a baby.

It annoys the hell out of me when it's deliberately used by anti-choicers in an effort to emotionally blackmail people into believing what they do. Pro-choicers don't try to manipulate people into believing what they believe - at least none I've ever met. They have to bring it down to an emotional level because they have no sound logical or scientific arguments against it.

I guess to me, the use of 'unborn baby/child' instead of foetus doesn't make a difference. I support women having the choice to abort a foetus, and calling it an unborn baby doesn't change a thing for me.

[valsa]

Which is why the term unborn disturbs me so much. It opens the door to 2 manslaughter convictions. Before you know it, the person who kills an unborn (ie. a gynecologist who performs abortions) will be charged with murder because they caused the death of the unborn. Yikes!!

I agree. I don't think someone who kills a pregnant women should be charged with two deaths. That opens the door to all sorts of anti-choice bullshit.

[lilith]

I agree. I don't think someone who kills a pregnant women should be charged with two deaths. That opens the door to all sorts of anti-choice bullshit.

I agree they shouldn't be charged with two deaths, but if the pregnancy passed a certain point or part of the motive for the crime it should be an aggravating factor for sentencing.

[Minerva]

I have no idea what the exact origins of the term "unborn child" are, but as far as I can tell, the anti-choice movement has appropriated it because they think it highlights the "fact" that we're discriminating against fetuses based on them not being born.

"See? See? It's a child that just happens to not have been born yet. That's the ONLY difference. What's a blastocyst?"

Pre-born is them trying to emphasize that point even more, since "not yet born" suits their purposes a bit better than the simple "not born".

Plenty of pro-choice people refer to fetuses as children and babies. Plenty of pregnant people who are on their way to have an abortion refer to their fetus as a baby. It's just an expression, and it's not always infused with the emotion that anti-choicers think it is. Anti-choicers have taken advantage of this common expression and made it political. The argument, I believe, is that because everyone calls fetuses babies, everyone must think fetuses are the same thing as the human beings we call babies, and that they should have the same legal standing and the same rights. You'd have to be pretty thick to think that's logical, but most of the anti-choice people I've dealt with so far have been pretty thick.

I don't give a shit what people call their own fetus, or anyone's fetus really (though they should be respectful of what other people want their fetus called, obviously). Calling a fetus a child/baby is a perfectly cute tradition, and anti-choicers have gone and twisted it, when what anyone calls anything has no bearing on whether it should have rights. I call my dog my baby - that doesn't mean he's entitled to a birth certificate and an education savings plan.

"It's a baby/child" is an absolutely daft argument, and I think it's a waste of time arguing semantics. It's a baby? Sure. We can call it a giraffe for all I care. The abortion debate is really about whether it's legally a baby, and whether it's entitled to legal personhood. And the answer to both of those is no.

[MrsKay]

The only term that makes me snarly is "preborn". That's a retrospective term, IMO. It's something that's already been done - precooked, for example. When I was pregnant, my children were not preborn. They were soon-to-be-born, babies once I hit a certain point of no return or was feeling sappy, unborn child/baby, sure, I could go with that. Now that they're here, I can refer to their preborn days. In any other context, "preborn" is just fucking ridiculous.

[formergothardite]

Yes, You sound very combative. I wasn't suggesting any laws be changed, I was stating my personal belief. Last I checked I was entitled to my opinion without explaining anything to you.

Have you read Tree Mom's late term abortion story? If not I would reccommend that you do. And when you say I'm pro-choice to an extent, it is saying that you would like to take the choice away from women at some point in the pregnancy.

[SayNoToMullets]

I have no problem with people using the term 'unborn child' in causal conversation, because as someone else mentioned, they want the foetus, they already love the foetus, they're planning for it to be a part of their lives. If I were pregnant I wouldn't use the term, but I would think of it as a baby.

It annoys the hell out of me when it's deliberately used by anti-choicers in an effort to emotionally blackmail people into believing what they do. Pro-choicers don't try to manipulate people into believing what they believe - at least none I've ever met. They have to bring it down to an emotional level because they have no sound logical or scientific arguments against it.

I guess to me, the use of 'unborn baby/child' instead of foetus doesn't make a difference. I support women having the choice to abort a foetus, and calling it an unborn baby doesn't change a thing for me.

This tactic reminds me of a fundie-lite girl I went to high school with who started an argument with me about abortion. Started an argument that she wasn't prepared to finish, and my viewpoint on the matter at 16 or so wasn't terribly sophisticated, but even then I believed that women have rights to their bodies, and that if all these unplanned pregnancies are being carried to term, what was her plan to provide for the children once they were born? She didn't have an answer to any of that, but just kept saying things like "But . . . you're snuffing out a life! And life is precious! And . . . what about the baybees?"

As it happens, I did consider this girl a friend at the time. But some time later, I cut her out for good when she made a joke about my sister attempting suicide, and what if she succeeded (said like it would be just the juiciest gossip ever). Right after my sister was released from inpatient, too. But life is precious, right?

[valsa]

Have you read Tree Mom's late term abortion story? If not I would reccommend that you do. And when you say I'm pro-choice to an extent, it is saying that you would like to take the choice away from women at some point in the pregnancy.

"I'm pro-choice to a certain extent" is like "I'm a vegetarian but I eat chicken".

[Lady_M]

I really, really hate the term "preborn". It makes it sound like as soon as the sperm hits the egg and the cells start to multiply, it's automatically going to produce a viable pregnancy unless a woman has an abortion. In reality, there are lots of reasons pregnancies don't work out, voluntary abortion being only one reason.

I firmly believe that the decision to continue a pregnancy has to rest with the person who's going to have to carry the pregnancy for 9 months and then give birth. Too many decisions and major risks involved in birth/pregnancy to do otherwise...

Vex said:

I have no problem with people using the term 'unborn child' in causal conversation, because as someone else mentioned, they want the foetus, they already love the foetus, they're planning for it to be a part of their lives.

That's kind of how I feel about this. As someone who's going to need some extra medical assistance to achieve a badly wanted pregnancy, if it ever happens, I'll be thinking of it as a "baby" - because it's something DH and I have planned for and hope for. At the same time, it's completely comprehensible why someone who's not desiring a pregnancy or ambivalent about it would find "baby" or "unborn child" a very loaded term. I generally try to follow the lead of whoever the pregnant person is in what they want it termed.

[Minerva]

The only term that makes me snarly is "preborn". That's a retrospective term, IMO. It's something that's already been done - precooked, for example. When I was pregnant, my children were not preborn. They were soon-to-be-born, babies once I hit a certain point of no return or was feeling sappy, unborn child/baby, sure, I could go with that. Now that they're here, I can refer to their preborn days. In any other context, "preborn" is just fucking ridiculous.

Well, their attitude on the subject is "you'll carry this pregnancy to term so help me."

Unborn doesn't make sense linguistically, either. I'm going to die someday, but I'm not undead. There's a reason The Unborn is the title of several horror movies.

[Nothing2CHere]

My last baby arrived after 6 years of surgery, medication, and miscarriages; the delivery team in the OR was almost as excited and emotional as I was. My pregnancy was fucking brutal, and I frequently referred to him as my parasite or my spawn. My daughter dubbed him "vampire baby" and called him EJ in honor of "Breaking Dawn". He was - and still is! - SO insanely wanted and adored, but it was not rainbows and sunshine and dancing in meadows in flowing white dresses. Dark humor got me through a lot of it, and there were times when I bitched to a couple of trusted people in confidence about how miserable the entire process was. Saying that women MUST be happy and lovey dovey about every aspect of pregnancy and motherhood is more bullshit that dehumanizes us and takes away our ownership of our bodies, minds and emotions.

This! I love that my son is here, but I hated being pregnant. And I too had my little circle of confidants who let me bitch to them without judgement.

[fedelm]

I've never heard a woman say I'm having a fetus. They say I'm having a baby. They don't say the fetus kicked me. They say the baby kicked me. If I'm talking clinically I use the term fetus but if I'm talking with friends I use unborn baby.

For the first few weeks when my son was a floppy newborn I called him "fetusbaby"

[thekate]

Unborn doesn't make sense linguistically, either. I'm going to die someday, but I'm not undead. There's a reason The Unborn is the title of several horror movies.

Maybe not "undead," but definitely "predead."

[valsa]

Maybe not "undead," but definitely "predead."

Says you. I'm pretty sure I'm immortal.

[browngrl]

I see a lot of embryos and fetuses (with ultrasound). Although I use the term embryo/fetus in my medical reports - I personally think of the embryo/fetus as a baby. There is a reason why fundamentalists want women who want abortions to have an ultrasound - it is because you see a surprising amount of anatomic detail quite (first trimester) early on - and the baby is moving and you hear the heart beating - and it becomes almost impossible not to see the embryo as a baby.

I am very glad that late term abortions are rare. I've never been involved in one that wasn't a very sad situation. I have noticed an interesting trend lately. More and more parents are electing to continue the pregnancy even when they know the baby has a grim prognosis. One couple carried their anencephalic baby to term - so that the organs might be donated- they then had a funeral. Another couple (baby had a fatal cardiac problem) had their whole family in the birthing room. After the baby was born the family members all took turns holding the baby and saying what they needed to. The baby finally died a few hours later in his mother's arms. I can't possibly know what a parent in this awful situation feels but I have found myself quite moved by some of these deliveries.

NB: I hope I have not made any woman who has had an abortion upset with my observations. Please accept my apologies if I have.

[Bredonny]

A blastocyst, zygote or fetus is obviously a baby, and a baby is a child, and a child is an adult. So it's really an "unborn adult." We know killing adults is wrong (unless they received the death penalty, or are abortion doctors, or it's a war) so it is definitely murder to abort the unborn adult!!!!!!1111!!!!

PS save the BABIIEES!!11! and unborn adults!!1!!1!!!!

[Minerva]

One couple carried their anencephalic baby to term - so that the organs might be donated- they then had a funeral.

I can't get over how noble that is. Carrying and giving birth to basically an uninhabited body, knowing the whole time it's going to die, so that someone else's baby can live.

[SealFan1963]

About the late term abortion. . . once again, those are my personal beliefs. My beliefs that I stated, not to challenge anyone or to change anyone's mind. I am not judging anyone or saying that they cannot do what they feel the need to do in their situation. It's just how I feel. Yes, things have happened in my past that cause me to have these views and I am not going to discuss them here. I'm done with this conversation.

[hapamama]

I tend to ride the fence on this one. While I would never get an abortion myself, I think what another woman does with her body is none of my business. That said, I think there should be more resources out there for women who have unplanned pregnancies who are considering abortion because of financial worries. But I tend to be kind of socialist and think that we should take care of needy people rather than give big corporations tax breaks.

I also think that birth control should be more freely available, and that maybe there should be more research into birth control options for men other than condoms and vasectomy.

[MrsKay]

I can't get over how noble that is. Carrying and giving birth to basically an uninhabited body, knowing the whole time it's going to die, so that someone else's baby can live.

Agreed - THAT just kind of sent my heart and brain into some weird spasm of sorrow and amazement. I seriously do NOT know if I could do that - I'm actually going to say that the odds of me being able to handle that are on the negative end of the scale. Never say never, but still. I would never expect that of anyone, or assume that they should do that, or think that they're better than anyone else as parents. But hearing about it and knowing that they actually did do that... Just wow. I can't really wrap my Mommy Brain around it enough to say what I'm feeling, but I seriously choked up. That must have been an incredibly bittersweet thing to witness.

[B5SnowDog]

While I would never get an abortion myself, I think what another woman does with her body is none of my business.

If you were in a life-threatening situation, like the case of Savita Halappanavar, do you think you would change your mind?

[Minerva]

I tend to ride the fence on this one. While I would never get an abortion myself, I think what another woman does with her body is none of my business. That said, I think there should be more resources out there for women who have unplanned pregnancies who are considering abortion because of financial worries. But I tend to be kind of socialist and think that we should take care of needy people rather than give big corporations tax breaks.

I also think that birth control should be more freely available, and that maybe there should be more research into birth control options for men other than condoms and vasectomy.

Congratulations, you're pro-choice!

[moodygirl86]

I remember my mum showing us her old diaries from 1988 - 1989, which is when she was pregnant with my brother, and she talked in one entry about being off her food, "but for the sake of my unborn child I forced it down". So in that case she was using the term to differentiate from the three of us she already had!

I agree with what everyone else said about foetus being a medical term and not what an average pregnant mother would say. Of course if the pregnancy is wanted, to you it is already your baby, including all the name planning, christening organising and bedroom decorating. If not, it's a foetus (or parasite, thanks for the :lol: )! It's all down to personal preference, really.

[formergothardite]

About the late term abortion. . . once again, those are my personal beliefs. My beliefs that I stated, not to challenge anyone or to change anyone's mind. I am not judging anyone or saying that they cannot do what they feel the need to do in their situation. It's just how I feel. Yes, things have happened in my past that cause me to have these views and I am not going to discuss them here. I'm done with this conversation.

Of course you don't want to discuss them here, that is why you brought them up.

You can't be pro-choice to an extent and say you are not wanting to tell people what to do in their situations. You can't say that you think late term abortions are wrong without judging people.

If you don't want to even look a tiny bit at what you are saying, well, go back and live in your bubble where you don't think deeply about what you believe.

And have you read Treemom's story?

If not, here is a link, scroll down:

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/97488/ ... ng-Surgery

http://freejinger.yuku.com/reply/9976/K ... reply-9976

[valsa]

I see a lot of embryos and fetuses (with ultrasound). Although I use the term embryo/fetus in my medical reports - I personally think of the embryo/fetus as a baby. There is a reason why fundamentalists want women who want abortions to have an ultrasound - it is because you see a surprising amount of anatomic detail quite (first trimester) early on - and the baby is moving and you hear the heart beating - and it becomes almost impossible not to see the embryo as a baby.

Meh. A lot of this is wishful thinking. Anti-choicers want women to see ultrasounds because what their imagination makes up is far cuter/more baby-like than the real thing. According to the Guttmacher Institute, 78.9% of abortions in the U.S. are performed on fetuses 8 weeks or less.

This is a regular ultrasound of an 8 week fetus:

Looks like a blob with a couple of nubs to me. But hey, maybe with the movement/heartbeat included, it's a little less blob-like during the ultrasound.

This is a 3D ultrasound of an 8 week fetus:

Okay, it's a little more detailed but I'm not sure that helps its' case any. Sure, those nubs look like arms and legs now, but that thing also has a freakin' tail! Just what every mother wants.

"So, are you two having a boy or a girl?"

"Oh no, we're actually having a lemur."

And this is an actual 8 week fetus:

For reference, this is a baby:

One is something you want to pick up and love and snuggle with. The other you'd probably call the CDC on if you found it slithering around in your basement.

Ultimately, people see what they want to see. If you look at a blob with some nubs and want to see a baby, you're going to see a baby.