Church Prays for Deceased Baby for 15hrs B4 Calling 911

[gulag]

Why not about the dads? FWIW, as a mom, I would do everything in my power to protect my children and grandchildren, also.

ETA: Mother love still loves, even when called swine, or demon, or dog.

I notice there is not a lot of emphasis on "Honor your father and your mother."

Yep, mothers are enduring.

And I'm more cynical and jaded. CoW is about female submission to men and subordination. Outspoken women acting without male permission are not merely threatening to their control, but also appropriate targets from their perspective. Disobedient, undisciplined, yadda yadda. From their mindset - justifiable to chastise and condemn in a deeply personal and public way. You know, the 'New World' Puritan tradition of branding women as witches and whores and putting them in stocks in the town square.

Men, not so much. Not even men who disagree with them. It's about male authority and respect. And they're chicken. If they take on a bunch of men in the same fashion (especially the evangelical fundamentalist preacher fathers and brothers!) - chastising, bitter condemnation, personal insults and criticism, arrogant disparaging correction and adversarial tone - it wouldn't fly! That would shock the evangelical Christian leadership of their genre and bring scrutiny, disapproval and renunciation by the few adult men that support them. These young men are afraid of pissing the old guys. Cowards.

The absence of demonization of their own parents and mothers by the four leaders is noticeable. How come the leaders aren't castigating their own mommies? I believe it's part of the programming; the loyalty oaths, the confession of sins. Of course, the leaders don't have to do this to their families, right? Even though you would think they'd be the first ones to complain about parents, and probably the loudest. But that's on a level playing field outside of a cult. One more detail that points to 'cult'. It's not a level playing field - someone is in charge and requires fealty and edification from converts.

Speaking of the great evangelical Christian exclusively-male leadership in America, where are they? The silence is getting louder and louder. Deafening, in fact. Do they really condone this behavior? Do they have no appreciation and understanding that the public outside fundamentalist circles is watching and judging? Do these young men really represent the "Warrior" ideal? Do they feel no sense of responsibility for pushing a 'church planting' agenda and the young men they groomed? No compassion and sense of stewardship for women and children trained to submit by doctrine and edict?

Hey, churches - if you're going to train a bunch of human beings for generations to be blindly submissive, there is prima facie responsibility for vigilance and accountability when it is abusive and harmful, spiritually or physically. Own it.

[apple1]

And I'm more cynical and jaded. CoW is about female submission to men and subordination. Outspoken women acting without male permission are not merely threatening to their control, but also appropriate targets from their perspective. Disobedient, undisciplined, yadda yadda. From their mindset - justifiable to chastise and condemn in a deeply personal and public way. You know, the 'New World' Puritan tradition of branding women as witches and whores and putting them in stocks in the town square.

Absolutely.

These young men are afraid of pissing the old guys. Cowards.

Maybe, hard for me to say. Or maybe it's just easier to beat on the women.

The absence of demonization of their own parents and mothers by the four leaders is noticeable. How come the leaders aren't castigating their own mommies?

Interesting point.

Speaking of the great evangelical Christian exclusively-male leadership in America, where are they? The silence is getting louder and louder... Do they feel no sense of responsibility...

I am wondering the same. I mean, I understand the "autonomy of the local church" thing that is pretty much Baptist tradition, but still. What church and what pastors ordained these guys? Has their ordination been revoked? It should be, because they do not hold to the tenets of either Baptist or Calvary Chapel beliefs, which seem to be the origins that these guys have cast off. Yes, the effect would only be symbolic, but still... Even more important, they could be holding the feet of the authorities to the fire, so to speak, to do the right thing from a legal viewpoint.

[maybeizfundie]

You don't have to be ordained by anyone to start a cult. I haven't dug too deeply into this one but it's possible that these guys left mainstream churches, or even some fundie churches, having found them entirely unreceptive to their stridence about their pet issues. They may well have already been spoken to about these beliefs, rebuked even, and left the "corrupted" churches in response. The evangelical segment of christianity in America is not monolithic and united. There is no single ruling body that would deal with something like this, and if there was, what would they do? Say something? Probably the majority don't even know this group exists. Those that do know of them could say something. Maybe they have. But I don't see any serious, truly impactful action that could be taken, excepting maybe retracting ordinations by whatever church did those. But even so, that doesn't impact the cult's ability to function as a cult, really.

[gulag]

The evangelical segment of christianity in America is not monolithic and united. There is no single ruling body that would deal with something like this, and if there was, what would they do? Say something? Probably the majority don't even know this group exists. Those that do know of them could say something. Maybe they have. But I don't see any serious, truly impactful action that could be taken, excepting maybe retracting ordinations by whatever church did those.

I sort of thought the evangelical segment was monolithic and united, in spirit and doctrine, if not in practice and administration. I thought it was lineage - like marital arts. Seeding churches. It all started somewhere. Like Mormons and Joseph Smith.

It's hard to determine exactly, but it really appears that these guys made up their own thing. They seem to have no pre-existing body that they credit, or that they're responsible to. They may not be ordained by any convention or standard. I don't know if there's a specific meaningful action to be taken. It's not like disbarring a lawyer or pulling a teaching credential or nursing license.

But that's not really what I was getting at. I believe pastors and preachers and ministers and ecumenical leadership of any Christian denomination/brand should care. Take a stand. Say something. Even if it's nothing more than academic exercise. But that's just me.

They create their own professional standards and industry; there's no Board certification for preachers. They should take responsibility as representatives of theology and faith-based stuff. Monitor their own, so to speak. It reveals that there really isn't much of a collective, is there?

More spiritually-uplifting words to the public, from the Church of Wells:

TD, January 7: "If we lived in old testament days the majority of pastors from the modern "church" would be put to death."

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

Responses [names redacted, punctuation theirs]:

- "Not sure pastors of the modern church would consider themselves prophets."

- "Remember, we are under the new covenant, and no one is punished till the judgement seat of Christ, everyone still has a chance to get right with God.....until their death.....then the judgement ...."

TD (CoW) - "this is the definition of prophesy in Webster

1. In Scripture, to preach; to instruct in religious doctrines; to interpret or explain Scripture or religious subjects; to exhort. 1 Cor 13. Ezek 37."

TD - "Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; i truly fear for those who neglect this great salvation

And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(2Th 2:10-12)

this is most fearful verse that God would send you a delusion and if God sends you a delusion you will believe it and this delusion will take you straight to hell the delusion the majority of "christians" have is where they believe they are right with God and they are not

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

[gulag]

Posted on an open Facebook page. Meant for the public. Responses redacted as a courtesy. Church of Wells WANTS people to read their materials.

...just as David cut off the head of Goliath and lifted up, I lift up the scores of souls who

supernaturally passed from death to life by the Hand of God, and not of themselves, not of a tradition of man (sinners prayer, etc).

There has been nearly 40 new births since September of 2010 when I joined the Church. Give God the glory, great things He hath done, amen and amen.

[MyName]

Late to the discussion, but WTH is a "baptism of death?"

[MyName]

Read all the pages and found some members on fb.....many are friends with a guy from Shelbyville, IN. Last name, Campbell.

His page is plenty fundie crazy, but I can't tell if he is involved with the actual CoW. Anyone? I ask because, small world that it is, he and I have mutual friends. I want to warn them if he is part of this Texas cult.

BYHIsgRace-- i am sorry for your loss. It's good though that you are continuing to stand for truth. I really hope you get your daughter back. There is always hope.

[gulag]

At least seven CoW on his FB page. I take this to mean he knows them. Not surprising. The young men got their start by street preaching and evangelical "fellowship" through small congregations all over the U.S. - Indiana, Missouri, New York, California, Canada.

Ongoing open communication about all this will make a positive difference. Questions. Probing. Critical thinking.

[apple1]

At least seven CoW on his FB page. I take this to mean he knows them. Not surprising. The young men got their start by street preaching and evangelical "fellowship" through small congregations all over the U.S. - Indiana, Missouri, New York, California, Canada.

This is why I suspect that they were originally ordained by somebody (and yes, as I said in my previous post, I understand the autonomy of the local church in some denominations). I also realize that it would be symbolic at best, but their ordination should be revoked. There is more than plenty of evidence to do so.

Snarky comment: It's spelled Calvinism, not Calvanism. This is about as far as I can snark on these guys. The rest is dead serious, pun intended.

Ongoing open communication about all this will make a positive difference. Questions. Probing. Critical thinking.

I truly hope so. I hope the downward spiral can be reversed.

To byHisgrace: Every time I get to see my granddaughter, it reminds me to keep yours in my thoughts and prayers.

[byHisgrace58]

MyName, there IS hope and my husband and I cling to that!

apple1, thank you. Prayers mean so much...

gulag, that drawing they posted is almost threatening. It seems almost violent coming from such a meek group.

[apple1]

gulag, that drawing they posted is almost threatening. It seems almost violent coming from such a meek group.

I am only going by what is on the internet, but- They don't seem meek to me. They seem elitest and arrogant. But then, the idea that no one but them and their group is saved seems as arrogant as it is possible to be.

Their comments on forcibly preventing interaction with those outside the group (I previously posted) also seem violent to me. How would they react if the authorities insisted on allowing members to interact with outside family members, or outside friends?

[byHisgrace58]

In order for us to have access, we must sit down with the elders so they can 'share' Scripture with us.

[apple1]

In order for us to have access, we must sit down with the elders so they can 'share' Scripture with us.

Yeah. Right. While you "fast" and spend anywhere from hours to days listening to their "preaching". Got it.

[gulag]

Always, the mystery and enigmatic statements.

...the Bible says I am a 'fellowcitizen, and of the household of God', 'as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ', 'a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that (I) should shew forth the praises of him who hath called (me) out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Interesting. They take Bible verses and own them, incorporate verses into their sentences, adopt scripture as vernacular and narrative. And adapt them, even changing the verse, to fit into a regular sentence.

We're familar with sermons constructed like that, but that application has a very specific context - a monologue delivered to a congregation as a lesson. For the purpose of illustration on a particular theme and topic. Not a dialogue. Not ordinary communication and conversation. Preachers don't typically speak this way.

Never mind the context of entire Bible chapters that the single lines are drawn from. Very complicated. I wonder if they understand that when they edit the verse - adjust punctuation so it fits in a sentence, take out a word here, add one there - it modifies scripture.

The actual verses are this:

"Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ."

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"

Followed, of course, by the next verse: "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

[King James Version, Cambridge Edition]

I mean, come on, if you're gonna quote the Bible, then quote it properly, right? Just not quite the dramatic flair and certainly not the applied ownership of the words, when you add in the proper context.

So personalized and such extraordinary identification. Almost as if the Bible comprises their own words.

So what does all that mean in plain English? I don't know.

We're special. We're different. We're the 'chosen ones' (which used to mean Jewish, just sayin'). We're spiritually superior and have attained an enlightened position, and endorsed by God.

[gulag]

I found this archaic reference.

"Let others boast of their Roman or American citizenship, but ever be it our exultation that our citizenship is in heaven."

The American National Preacher. No. 1, Volume XXIX. January 1855.

From Living Ministers of the United States, Volumes 29-32. W. H. Bidwell, 1855

[byHisgrace58]

a new testimony has been posted. basically, more of the same stuff.

[gulag]

Old follow-up, KYTX19

Pastors discuss Wells religious group

http://www.cbs19.tv/story/18711060/past ... Id=7366920

[byHisgrace58]

ugh...

[So Says I]

I agree, byhisgrace, enough! These are just the rantings of mad men who have no sense or regard for others. By some delusion of grandeur, or wish to brainwash others, they make these nonsensical rants. I hope that the government will take notice and take measures to put an end to this cult. I am so sorry that your dear daughter and her children are sucked into this insanity. My heart breaks for the situation, and I hope for justice and for peace for you and yours. Hugs.

[gulag]

For all their dramatic gravitas and gloom-and-doom couched in 18th-century Olde Englishe Puritan language, they're just a bunch of spoiled twunny-somethings trying to get something they want. Complete narcissists. Control-freaks.

Here's what one of the main dudes was doing last June. When the baby died. This is what was on his mind.

Oh yeah, sold the car. They're flush now. We buy gold!

Undoubtedly, there's a nice stock portfolio somewhere there. Trust fund, anyone?

Brilliant.

"...homiletical perfection and exegetical exactitude..."

HcMDT4iJ_UU

After the sexy intro, there's scary ranting punctuated with the hallmark Sean Morris 'Fi'ty-Cent/Snoop Dog' rapper hand acting. His inner 'Snarky Condescending Child' can't help but take over.

"...intellectualism and erudition..." Oh but, ye, did you perhaps mean "recondite"?

[apple1]

I have seen video of early Jim Jones, and David Koresh, that did seem as "off" as that video.

Something is off. Brain damaged from contact sports? Previous serious illness? Or just too much weed and too little sleep?

Terrifying.

[apple1]

I have seen video of early Jim Jones, and David Koresh, that did seem as "off" as that video.

Something is off. Brain damaged from contact sports? Previous serious illness? Or just too much weed and too little sleep?

Terrifying.

Sorry, I meant to say did NOT seem as off...

[apple1]

What church and what pastors ordained these guys? Has their ordination been revoked? It should be, because they do not hold to the tenets of either Baptist or Calvary Chapel beliefs, which seem to be the origins that these guys have cast off. Yes, the effect would only be symbolic, but still... Even more important, they could be holding the feet of the authorities to the fire, so to speak, to do the right thing from a legal viewpoint.

I stand at least partially corrected. Sagemont Church revoked the ordination of on of the members, according to his writings on the CoW website.

[gulag]

XII. The Accepting of Gifts

In the midst of so many grieving things stated by Karen Dean on the worldwide web, I must

expose the falsity of another representative statement that she made on this aforementioned

forum. She said, “My daughter, Kristin, and Dan drive a silver Chrysler Town and Country

mini-van. I know that because we bought it for them...they gave back everything we have

given them but that...

As was already stated, the only things we gave back were those things pertaining to Disney.

...we’re not accepting things from them while they are at odds with us...unwilling to be reasonable and talk through Scripture and repent of their sin toward us and God, etc.

I would conclude this section by letting the reader know that if my wife or I have done wrong, we want to know about it so that we can repent, because we are Christians; nevertheless, the things that the Deans have said are not Christian reproofs with a desire for reformation, repentance, and the glory of God, but unreasonable accusations and backbiting in the darkness of a secular forum, otherwise known as “railing†in the New Testament.

:arrow: They want to be told what they've done wrong, but only if the messenger has a desire to be reformed?

Mind-twisting. Hard to even understand, let alone try to break it down to its simplest form.

Okay, so never mind that, but are they going to give the Chysler minivan back or just keep it because the gifter doesn't desire to be reformed?

XI. The Power of the Tongue and the Hypocrisy of Sagemont

When I simply disagreed with Sagemont, they judged me wrong and revoked my minister’s license, without even hearing what I specifically disagreed with or why, nor will they hear me, though I have pled and do plead with them even now.

The letter that he sent me is the only thing I had heard from my pastor (who was the guardian and under

shepherd over my soul that must give an account according to Scripture).

Though Dr. Morgan does teach damnable heresy (which I am willing to address with him, having even sent

him a letter of entreaty which is still without response…)

:arrow: Sounds like the church taking responsibility for the men they give minister's licenses to. So, he acknowledges that a senior pastor serves as guardian and shepherd and is responsible ("...must give an account" - that's responsibility), but he rejects that church's doctrine and stewardship. Sounds simple enough. Bam, can't be a minister of that doctrine and represent that organization if you don't believe in it. The question has to be asked: why would you want to be?

[apple1]

:arrow: Sounds like the church taking responsibility for the men they give minister's licenses to. So, he acknowledges that a senior pastor serves as guardian and shepherd and is responsible ("...must give an account" - that's responsibility), but he rejects that church's doctrine and stewardship. Sounds simple enough. Bam, can't be a minister of that doctrine and represent that organization if you don't believe in it. The question has to be asked: why would you want to be?

Exactly.

I would also comment that this person is not one of the "elders", nor deacon, of the CoW. Not sure about those.