Church Prays for Deceased Baby for 15hrs B4 Calling 911

[apple1]

It appears that a new DA recently took over in that jurisdiction. Her name is Rachel Patton Phone: 903-683-2573.

distattorney@cocherokee.org

P.O. Box 450

135 S. Main Street 1st Floor Courthouse

Rusk, TX 75785-0450

This is definitely something that needs to be addressed and may have been lost in transition from one administration to the next. We need to correct that. Her background seems to be in child cases, so I dont think we'd hit a wall once we can be sure she's seen it.

Good information, Buzzard. What is your best (unofficial/we understand it's a personal opinion and not legal advice) opinion on how to get her attention? Does comment need to come from extended family members? Neighbors? Is there any value in someone like me who has no connection other than being very distressed by the events in question?

[Buzzard]

Personally, I FUCKING HATE getting email bombed. I create a rule in outlook and send everything into a folder where it never gets seen so there isnt much point to that en masse. Family members can call and speak to someone, they have a right to do that and really should.

Members of the public should/could send an email or paper letter expressing interest and concern for whats going on. I also assume that Rachel Patton has a google alert set for her name and may see this thread. Form emails/letters will be ignored but she is a new DA and may need a little prod in the right direction. These people are dangerous and this child's death was unnecessary. That needs to end.

DAs are not investigative agencies by definition but can step in where local law enforcement has failed. Based on the original article from May, it looks like they were already pushing it off to the DA to direct it. Since the former administration was in campaign mode this case was likely missed. The first few pages of this thread have good info, info I'd like to have if this were in my jurisdiction :-)

[apple1]

I have spent way too much time in the past couple of days reading (and listening) on the net about this group.

Coincidentally, last night and today I have caught 3 TV shows (yes, I know) about the after-effects of cults, one about Jim Jones.

I have been impressed with a number of parallels between Jim Jones' early years and this group. Young adult males, starting out with mainline denominations before splitting off. The separation of the adherents from their families and from their usual lives. Lengthy sermons. (How long do these go on, anyway?) Enough in common with their subjects' previous religious background that red flags may not immediately pop.

Another comment: The audio from their site that I listened to sure seems to have a lot of unhappy kids in the background. Maybe the kids are just tired and cranky from having to sit or be held through a lengthy service - or maybe it is something more. Kids can sometimes sense when things are off.

[gulag]

I have spent way too much time in the past couple of days reading (and listening) on the net about this group.

I have been impressed with a number of parallels between Jim Jones' early years and this group. Young adult males, starting out with mainline denominations before splitting off. The separation of the adherents from their families and from their usual lives. Lengthy sermons. (How long do these go on, anyway?) Enough in common with their subjects' previous religious background that red flags may not immediately pop.

That's it, apple1. Exactly.

There's a subtle theme of death in all their materials, speeches/sermons and doctrine. On first impression, it's typical 'Hellfire and Brimstone' rhetoric drawn from 18th-century Puritans. But when you look again, it becomes clear that it's not about trying to be good, or the struggle between good and evil, but that their sole purpose for existence is shaped as exit strategy - salvation, qualifying for entry into Heaven and death.

I believe that it isn't so much that they rely on faith-healing and reject medical care, but that they don't feel they need it.

Same thing with higher education. One young man planned to be an engineer. It was obviously important to him. In his testimony he repeatedly justifies and rationalizes; he turned in his engineering degree for chips to get into heaven.

It's strongly disturbing that young people embrace death like this; even preoccupied with it. They are not pastors and preachers of advanced years, contemplating their own mortality from aging. There's nothing organic about it.

From a little girl's publicized testimony:

In church -

"...the Spirit of God was so present at the whole-church prayer meeting that we were all scared. We had never seen anything like it. At the end, we were still fearful, but wanted to go play with the other children.

We played with them and forgot the Lord."

On a long interstate road trip -

"Ryan preached to all of us children...He preached about the wrath of God, and I was in fear until the end

when one of the children did something really funny, and we all started laughing. When we got home, Mommy told me the way I had laughed and forgotten the seriousness of the Word had been really disrespectful to God. I went to my room, and felt like I should miss supper and cry out to the Lord."

Parents and children take shelter from a tornado -

"Warren kept asking if we could go into some one's basement, or quickly go to Tanner's. Daddy kept telling him that there was no safe place to go other than to Jesus Christ. Ethan and Warren were stomping and yelling. Ethan was screaming that he was going to throw up. Warren was yelling, “I'm going to die and go to hell!â€

We all started begging God for mercy. Warren and Ethan were asking how to be saved. Mommy told us to confess our sins and ask the Lord for mercy. We confessed all the sin we could find in our wicked hearts. We

knew there was nothing good in us, and we definitely deserved hell..."

The next day -

"...I believed that God himself was in that storm, and I believed my heart to be sinful and wicked. The elders came over to meet with us (Rachel, Warren, Ethan, and I).

...we should have a love for the Word of God, and if we don't, then we need to prepare for the next storm. This

put me in great fear!"

Several days later -

"William and Kevin came to our house to preach... [while] Daddy was gone. They preached some fearful things about the wrath of God that was hovering over us."

During a bible study, the little girl dropped her pen. An adult told her it was the Devil. That the devil caused her pen to fly out of her hand to distract her from the preaching.

"After the Bible study...William and Kevin preached to me. At first, they were talking about counting the cost. My burden was increasing more and more, and I was crying."

"Before I was saved, I tried to run away from the brethren....I was scared of the brothers. I was so scared

of the Holy Spirit in them. But now I have the same Spirit in me, and I have unity with them.

I can't wait to be with the Lord! I look forward to the time when the Lord chooses to take me

from this body of death to go and sing with the saints in glory! Heaven is my home, and I am

just passing through this world. I am already very homesick for my wonderful home in heaven!

We all long for the day when we shall go meet our King!"

This little girl has been with the group for a relatively short time. But she's learned every lesson about fear. This is what she thinks about family outside the group:

"There are some of my relatives that do not want to hear the gospel. When I shared my

testimony, it reproved them because they have never even sought the Lord with all their heart.

They have not forsaken all their sins, but they somehow think that they are going to heaven."

This is adults' training. Virtual strangers instructing her about relationships with living adult relatives. The language is unconditional statements that speak to intentions, a lifetime of spiritual beliefs, what their response was, even whether or not this girl's relatives (grandparents, aunts and uncles) seek the Lord. How would the little girl know? Only from being told this by adults.

She's being taught to make assumptions about others' beliefs and to condemn.

Routine weekly church services are closed. Outsiders are not allowed to attend; group members only.

[gulag]

Maybe the kids are just tired and cranky from having to sit or be held through a lengthy service - or maybe it is something more. Kids can sometimes sense when things are off.

Maybe it's just me reading into it, but the guy's voice gets louder, more strident, angry. The babies start to cry. I think they're picking up on adults' fear and because the guy is angrily yelling at the group.

[byHisgrace58]

From what I've heard from someone who has since left the group, services last from 8-10 hours. Children are required to sit quietly in a corner of the room, never disturbing the adults. This, to me, is so incredibly sad. I work in the children's ministry at our church and I think about the joyful sounds when the rooms are full of kids. My granddaughters LOVED coming to church. Sometimes, it was difficult to get them to leave!

[apple1]

From what I've heard from someone who has since left the group, services last from 8-10 hours. Children are required to sit quietly in a corner of the room, never disturbing the adults. This, to me, is so incredibly sad. I work in the children's ministry at our church and I think about the joyful sounds when the rooms are full of kids. My granddaughters LOVED coming to church. Sometimes, it was difficult to get them to leave!

I'm a grandmother myself. The kind of joyfulness you mention is what I desired for my own kids when they were young, and now for my granddaughter. (My daughters also loved Sunday school when they were young; it was a joyful experience for them, too).

There will be plenty of time for learning about the difficulties, tragedies, and sadnesses in life. Those are for adults to deal with and, insofar as is possible, to protect children from.

I hope and pray that you will be able to experience joyful times with your granddaughters once again.

[Ex 2x2]

The fact that services are closed to outsiders is alone enough to raise serious suspicion. This group is not going to end well.

[apple1]

The fact that services are closed to outsiders is alone enough to raise serious suspicion. This group is not going to end well.

I am also very concerned, and especially for the children.

[gulag]

Brand new fresh from Elder Sean Morris, the leader of Church of Wells:

"Wrath Did Slaughter the Savior"

A wrath bearing Body did bear the weight of wrath,

This is the Gateway for the righteous & narrow path,

But if His suffering you do shamefully neglect,

If His mercy you do not cherish and accept,

The wrath that fell upon Him will fall upon you.

God made the Savior cry on a tree! Sinner, will He do anything different to you and me?

If we neglect His caring calls, choose to love the Adamic lusts born from the fall,

Make a mock at mercy, and for sin soaked years of pleasure expect eternity to stall,

Will you think God is not meditating on your crying and tortured agony in hell?

Will you go on thinking, as you always have, that you are ok and all is well?

If God made the Savior cry on a tree, will He do anything different to me?

If Jesus bled for me, there under God’s wrath, what will wrath do to me if I choose the wicked path?

What happened in time, 2000 years ago, will happen outside of time for an eternity of years, even so,

God will make men bleed like the hanging Savior was left in need,

God forsook Him and He will forsake you,

God bruised Him and He will break you,

He that made you will overtake you,

You will wish He never did create you,

With wrath He will overwhelm and hate you,

He slaughtered the sin-bearing Innocent, and will turn upon the guilty in vengeance,

And as He did ignore His cries, He will ignore your cries as you everlastingly die.

That forsaken Man on a tree,

You wonder now at His agony,

What it felt like when He cried, “Why hast Thou forsaken Me?â€

But such a vision you will soon see, because from His wrath you did never flee!

"Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath." (Psalms 90:11)

“The Name of the LORD is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe†(Proverbs 18:10)

So Westboro Baptist Church. Yes yes, I get it, God hates us all.

[byHisgrace58]

Is it just me or dos it seem to be getting darker...more threatening?

[apple1]

Is it just me or dos it seem to be getting darker...more threatening?

Yes. As gulag mentioned earlier in this thread, there is (among other issues) a preoccupation with death by relatively YOUNG people. I am beginning to think that time definitely is a factor in getting people out.

I also want to comment that patriarchal thinking (that is part of what most FJers fight regularly) is alive and well there. Not only in the male-only leadership, but also in the way the blame game is played. In reading on their site, I have noticed that multiple members (not just byHisgrace's family) blame and post strongly against their MOTHERS and MOTHERS-IN-LAW, while either not mentioning, or only mentioning in passing, their fathers or FILs.

byHisgrace, I continue to keep your family in my thoughts and prayers.

And, as I said before, I understand if you don't post more than you feel comfortable with, but - I hope you have been able to contact the new DA whose info Buzzard posted.

[apple1]

From their manifesto:

If one consents not to these truths as of yet, we believe, as ever he is a child of God, they shall be revealed (though not without proper light and reasoning), and if not, how can we but fear the words of Isaiah: “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them†(Isa. 8:20). If we see not eye-to-eye in these declarations it is not the beam in our eye, dear reader, but thine that is the issue.

Translation: "If you don't see it our way, the problem is you, and you are on your way to hell."

Also, a complete missing of the point about the beam in the eye Scripture.

[Joan of Snarc]

Yes. As gulag mentioned earlier in this thread, there is (among other issues) a preoccupation with death by relatively YOUNG people. I am beginning to think that time definitely is a factor in getting people out.

I also want to comment that patriarchal thinking (that is part of what most FJers fight regularly) is alive and well there. Not only in the male-only leadership, but also in the way the blame game is played. In reading on their site, I have noticed that multiple members (not just byHisgrace's family) blame and post strongly against their MOTHERS and MOTHERS-IN-LAW, while either not mentioning, or only mentioning in passing, their fathers or FILs.

byHisgrace, I continue to keep your family in my thoughts and prayers.

And, as I said before, I understand if you don't post more than you feel comfortable with, but - I hope you have been able to contact the new DA whose info Buzzard posted.

They really skip over that whole "honor thy father and mother" commandment, don't they?

:roll:

[byHisgrace58]

Yes. As gulag mentioned earlier in this thread, there is (among other issues) a preoccupation with death by relatively YOUNG people. I am beginning to think that time definitely is a factor in getting people out.

I also want to comment that patriarchal thinking (that is part of what most FJers fight regularly) is alive and well there. Not only in the male-only leadership, but also in the way the blame game is played. In reading on their site, I have noticed that multiple members (not just byHisgrace's family) blame and post strongly against their MOTHERS and MOTHERS-IN-LAW, while either not mentioning, or only mentioning in passing, their fathers or FILs.

byHisgrace, I continue to keep your family in my thoughts and prayers.

And, as I said before, I understand if you don't post more than you feel comfortable with, but - I hope you have been able to contact the new DA whose info Buzzard posted.

I left a message with no return call yet. Will attempt again today. The personal attacks are getting worse and I feel worn down and just a little overwhelmed this morning. ALL thoughts and prayers are appreciated.

[gulag]

I have noticed that multiple members (not just byHisgrace's family) blame and post strongly against their MOTHERS and MOTHERS-IN-LAW, while either not mentioning, or only mentioning in passing, their fathers or FILs.

Absolutely. Thanks for mentioning and validating that, apple1.

The CoW leaders have tangled with and alienated adult men, fundamentalist Christian evangelical preachers and pastors, senior church leadership, as well as fathers and fathers-in-law. Adult men that embraced them and mentored them in the beginning. That endorsed them publicly.

Do these young men publicly condemn these churches and pastors? Heck no! The closest they come is taking a swipe at Sagemont Church, but really working hard to deliberately keep it in context of the Deans. When they've pissed off the church organization itself, completely separate from this family.

Churches large and small, from street preachers to established churches, evangelical families of reputation and stature in the Christian community across the US in multiple states, and even in Canada. The core handful of young men nurtured their network of preachers, attended their churches and revival camps, traveled with them in RVs and on mission trips to South Africa, Scotland, etc.

These pastors and preachers credit themselves as Christian expertise and theologians, endowed with superior wisdom and knowledge of God, armed with advanced education in doctrine and finely-honed skill set of the trade. Authorities in pastoral care and guidance. Judges of sin and deceit and evil. Demanding obedience and edification from congregations. They are the professionals, are they not?

It's unconscionable that the various ministries and leadership say and do nothing. When they are well aware and more familiar with these young men than anyone else. At most, they've put a little distance between them. They might hold themselves just a tiny bit accountable.

Silence is consent.

[gulag]

Fascinating and informative. Deconstructs the basis of why we see ordinary Americans claim persecution in a country with a constitutional guarantee of religious practice and freedom from persecution. Totally apropo to Church of Wells.

"The Myth of Persecution: How Early Christians Invented a Story of Martyrdom†(HarperOne, 2013)

Interview with Candida Moss, professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame.

http://podcastdownload.npr.org/anon.npr ... 1363160687

[apple1]

... The personal attacks are getting worse and I feel worn down and just a little overwhelmed this morning. ALL thoughts and prayers are appreciated.

I am going to suggest a "positive" reason for that. The fact that attention is being brought to this (mostly hidden) problem may have them in defensive mode.

I am so sorry; if you lived nearby, I would meet you for coffee or something...

[Wolfie]

I left a message with no return call yet. Will attempt again today. The personal attacks are getting worse and I feel worn down and just a little overwhelmed this morning. ALL thoughts and prayers are appreciated.

Just remember, it is not your fault. You did nothing to cause this. (and as the other person said, if you were local I'd take you out for coffee or a cupcake.)

[gulag]

A great documentary. Worth the watch.

CveQIEcEmYY

My thoughts - increased personal attack is because your position is being validated. People are getting a little bit bold and the "elders" are getting a tiny bit of pushback from the audience, instead of the usual timid deference.

Now they're a little mad! Stand steady - you are not alone.

I'm pouring the coffee, who takes cream? Cupcake?

[byHisgrace58]

Thanks for sharing the documentary! You wonder how sensible people can be pulled in. It happens in such a subtle way...

[sissyintexas]

It looks like (from what limited info I have read on the internet) the leadership of this group (or at least a portion of the leadership) was Baylor-educated. (??) Baylor is a rather mainstream-Baptist-affiliated university, and Baylor has a well known and highly reputed Medical Center as part of its organization.

I actually graduated from Baylor and really did double-take when I saw the guy standing in front of Judge Baylor in the photo. Baylor is certainly pretty mainstream. Is it religious? Yes. Do you have to check in about church attendance or have administration watching over your shoulder? Not remotely.

I would describe Baylor as mostly upper middle class kids who are religious, but certainly not like any of the fundies we follow. Generally speaking, it is quite the preppy, conspicuous consumption kind of place. Not Baptist myself, but learned to wear Lacoste and drink from the other kids while I was there.

Very well respected medical, dental and nursing schools.

[apple1]

It should be noted that the majority of those being denounced in this diatribe are practicing Christians. Their offense? Trying to save their adult children, and their grandchildren, from a cult.

Take particular note of phrase I have bolded.

thechurchofwells.com/judgment-10.html

5) 5th Most peaceful (which is no peace at all) – All persons in the family are unregenerate and proud, ruthless, vengeful, and raging persecutors, consciously or unconsciously; they cannot help themselves, because they are dominated by the compulsion of emotional hate to invent evils and advance sin and Satan, to the damnation of men and the resistance of the loving Lord Jesus.

These individuals are passionate persecutors. They will not cease without making a large impact against the way of truth. They affect others by their preaching so as to make others bound under their evils, which leave them ill-affected to the truth. They slander (consciously or unconsciously), they hate in emotional hurt, jealousy, anger, and rage. They often scream, lose peaceful control, and so they meet the description of Nabal – “He is such a son of Belial, that a man cannot speak to him†(1 Sam. 25:17). Many parents become such persons after the conversion of their children. They will call every day to preach false doctrines, weep, plead, and do whatever they can do in their power to turn their children from the truth, whether their child is a seeking sinner or a converted Christian.

They will call the law enforcement with slanderous reports, they will rail with the word “cult,†they will think there is brainwashing at use, evil spirits involved, and more. They will call their pastors, send messengers, track their cell phones, haul them to psychiatric wards for an examination, and even kidnap their children by surprise attacks in coalition with police who are willing to break the law. They will track them down, stir up the neighborhood, start blogs, call pastors in other churches to create rallying pity and strength in numbers. They will pray, fast, and write. Oh! How hard it is to relate to such a dear family member like this. All of these things mentioned have happened to one or more individuals in our Church.

During the time that the child of such a parent is seeking the Lord for salvation, drastic measures are taken (by the child’s own will and decision) so that such a person is able to keep their mind on the Lord. The power of the parent’s corrupt speech can make their conversion impossible. After salvation, certain saints are weaker in conscience, faith, and steadfastness than others, and so, with each person and case the severity of separation is different. All decisions of severity in judgment surround the health of the individual Christian’s soul, that righteousness would be maintained at any cost, even if this dog (Php. 3) of a parent misunderstands everything. They are angry and dangerous men to the souls of saints! “Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go: Lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul†(Prov. 22:24-25).

These parents are swine who are ready at any circumstance to outwit you, turn again, and then “rend you.†They must be dealt with accordingly! “Give not that which is holy unto dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you†(Matt. 7:6). If these parents were not so passionately bent on their child’s damnation, and had a willingness and peaceable nature to talk, things would be very different. Sadly, these individuals often lead astray most other family members and so many others: “they are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them†(1 John 4:5). So many are deceived because of this individual that there must be a contending against them, disrespect for their spiritual influence and authority, lest all the family and others are destroyed. These become men and women worthy to call out by name in public rebuke (2 Tim. 1:15, Tit. 1:13, 2 Tim. 4:14-15), infamy, and humiliation, “men whose mouths must be stopped†(Titus 1:11), men not to peaceably entertain in the Church for one hour (Gal. 2:5).

They are Ishmaels that must be “cast out†for the safety of God’s people (Gal. 4:30). There must be a measure of separation made, and because of the parents’ persistent zeal for perpetual talking and contact so as to evilly effect the child of God, such actions as ignoring them, refusal to speak, or such like things are necessary at times. We cannot engage in such perpetual contentions and folly to the subversion of our souls and the hindrance of our growth – “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him†(Prov. 26:4). “Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease†(Prov. 22:10). The uttermost severity is required for the continuance of personal and corporate holiness while at odds with such a one like this. Their sins are dangerous and snaring. Do you hear the voice of God today for such ones? “Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues†(Rev. 18:4).

[byHisgrace58]

I am pretty sure this was all written about me and a couple of other moms.

[apple1]

I am pretty sure this was all written about me and a couple of other moms.

Horrible. I am so sorry. Rhetorical question: Why not about the dads?

FWIW, as a mom, I would do everything in my power to protect my children and grandchildren, also.

ETA: Mother love still loves, even when called swine, or demon, or dog. (My dogs are definite example of unconditional love, BTW).

I notice there is not a lot of emphasis on "Honor your father and your mother."