Church Prays for Deceased Baby for 15hrs B4 Calling 911

[Wolfie]

I agree. While that diatribe reads better than most fundie-written propaganda, it's obvious they were trying so very hard. In the beginning, he mentions having several editors. I think several people slaved over that mess to make it as impressive as possible. They throw in several archaic spellings, like heretick, just to spice it up and make themselves appear educated. Overall, it reminds me of a debate resolution. Resolved: My mother-in-law pissed me off by airing my dirty laundry on message boards so she deserves this 50-page bashing, complete with Bible quotes.

And the thing is, spelling like that does not make somebody appear educated, but makes them appear to be trying to be something that they aren't.

(I do know somebody who likes to use unusual words to appear smarter and more educated, it's not phased me. It's her other behavior that has shown who she is, or isn't.)

[apple1]

The saga of this cult is very disturbing, even without the infant's death. I am trying to figure out what leverage they have (more than "ordinary" fundies) to pull in these young families and to isolate them completely, not only from the "world", but also from ordinary life and from their close relatives. I suspect that ALL the children are being abused in one way or another. (Aside: There is a disturbing piece on their site about parenting entitled "Love hard, discipline hard." :cry: )

There also seems to be very little information about them on the www, outside of the propaganda on their own website, and the thread on the anti-cult forum that has been linked earlier in this thread. It's hard to figure out exactly how this cult got its start and how it continues to exist. Also, what is the hold they have over local authorities that has resulted in the lack of charges in this infant's death?

[gulag]

I am trying to figure out what leverage they have (more than "ordinary" fundies) to pull in these young families and to isolate them completely, not only from the "world", but also from ordinary life and from their close relatives.

It's hard to figure out exactly how this cult got its start and how it continues to exist. Also, what is the hold they have over local authorities that has resulted in the lack of charges in this infant's death?

I know, right?

I think it's youthful appeal. The "elders" are their peers, not their fundie daddies. It's new and fresh, yet reassuringly familiar for those raised in evangelical fundy families in isolated elitist Christians environments. Young adults wandering around trying to figure out how to live in the world outside of the comfort of the big family, homeschooling, like-minded people and activities, farm life or whatever. They seek out something comfortable and go back to what they were born into, just not their own.

In a word, Stockholm Syndrome. Basic behaviour modification technique. First they resist, then they doubt, then they fear, so they switch it up and do their best to buy into it. There's a learning curve. They respond to the pressure, throw something out hesitantly to see if it's the right thing and gets approval, they get feedback and adjust. This is where humans are most fragile and susceptible; the mind is crumbling around the edges. Perspective is lost. Focus is intent on right here and right now - the world beyond fades into the background. We all do that with projects. We're on a mission to complete something; rearrange the living room or take final exams or whatever. We focus intently on just that one thing. But it's short-lived, temporary, when we're done we breathe a sigh of relief and get back to life and all the stuff in it, including whatever's hovering on the horizon and the periphery.

This is where they isolate the person from all other influences, capture their attention and keep the focus. They keep the person awake for days, restrict food and water, reward them with huge approval when they get something right, berate and threaten when they get something wrong. This is programming. Ultimately, it doesn't take long to get the person convinced that the moon is made of green cheese.

When they finally get it completely right, the reward and approval they feel is the closer. After the breakthrough, they're more staunchly committed and enthusiastic then the leaders. All excited and jacked up.

The district attorney. No idea what their decision and plan is. Makes no sense. They need scrutiny and public pressure. Bear in mind, this is rural Texas. All of them are Christian, from law enforcement to the DA's office to the media. They will protect religious rights. What I understand is that they are terrified of the potential fallout, specifically based on what happened with the FLDS a few years ago. They want to avoid that.

I am not family to anyone, but have friendships with concerned family. This stuff caught my attention for other reasons. I started investigating it and then really started researching. Spent a lot of time on background and a thorough understanding.

As a sidebar, I was shocked to discover how many babies, children and adults die or are permanently damaged in the practice of religion. Not well-intended faith-healing, but the excuse of faith-healing and religious freedoms.

It's become quite personal. Two reasons:

First, personal experience with a sibling in a different time and place. Changed our family forever and will never be resolved. The impact extends through a lifetime, long after the person isn't in that situation anymore. The programming sticks. I don't know how this stuff happens or why.

Second, children. The most disenfranchised, most vulnerable members of our society. Cannot protect themselves. Cannot choose. Cannot remove themselves. They cannot do without our help. We all have a responsibility to all children. I feel strongly that how we take care of our children and protect them, defines us a a group, as a society. I'm not letting a baby in Texas die on my watch, without questioning it.

I'm making it my business.

Silence is consent.

[JesusFightClub]

I suspect they are using it as an archaic (think old English, as in King James' time) spelling rather than blatant misspelling. Everything they have on that site seems to be overblown and/or archaic, presenting themselves as more educated and elite than most. If something can be said in 5 words, they use 10. Very awkward and not very readable. But I think this is part of the intimidation factor.

Ah, this brought back fond memories. Nothing like a good pages-long denunciation to, ahem, purge the system. ;)

This is more likely to provoke howls of laughter than a teary self-criticism, though. Liking Ultimate Fighting Championship makes you blog horrible things about others! It does, honest! :lol:

[apple1]

I know, right?

I think it's youthful appeal...

In a word, Stockholm Syndrome. Basic behaviour modification technique...

The district attorney. No idea what their decision and plan is. Makes no sense. They need scrutiny and public pressure. Bear in mind, this is rural Texas. All of them are Christian, from law enforcement to the DA's office to the media. They will protect religious rights. What I understand is that they are terrified of the potential fallout, specifically based on what happened with the FLDS a few years ago. They want to avoid that.

I am not family to anyone, but have friendships with concerned family. This stuff caught my attention for other reasons. I started investigating it and then really started researching. Spent a lot of time on background and a thorough understanding.

As a sidebar, I was shocked to discover how many babies, children and adults die or are permanently damaged in the practice of religion. Not well-intended faith-healing, but the excuse of faith-healing and religious freedoms.

It's become quite personal. Two reasons:

First, personal experience with a sibling in a different time and place. Changed our family forever and will never be resolved. The impact extends through a lifetime, long after the person isn't in that situation anymore. The programming sticks. I don't know how this stuff happens or why.

Second, children. The most disenfranchised, most vulnerable members of our society. Cannot protect themselves. Cannot choose. Cannot remove themselves. They cannot do without our help. We all have a responsibility to all children. I feel strongly that how we take care of our children and protect them, defines us a a group, as a society. I'm not letting a baby in Texas die on my watch, without questioning it.

I'm making it my business.

Silence is consent.

I understand what Stockholm syndrome is. I also get that the local law enforcement is Christian (for that matter, so am I). Not all Christians turn a blind eye to this kind of thing. Every Christian that I know personally (granted, not a comprehensive population) would have a problem with this. Then again, I'm pretty mainstream.

I'm glad someone is making it their business. I hope the lid is blown off this coverup. It is very strange in this day that the discussion of this on the internet is so limited. Makes me think there is more than meets the eye. Given that, I would not be a bit surprised if FJ receives some kind of cease and desist letter to remove this thread. I hope that doesn't happen.

I also have red flags popping up about the situations of the living children. The "love hard, discipline hard" sounds ominous. I also found a comment on their site including Michael Pearl in a list of religious "leaders" falling short. (Pearl falls short all right, but I suspect they think in the opposite direction from what I think).

[apple1]

Getting more and more strange. Relatives of serial killer Israel Keyes (I think Keyes killed people over a period of 14 years) are members of this "church", and one of the pastors of this "church" preached Keyes' funeral.

http://www.ktva.com/home/outbound-xml-f ... 73381.html

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

Getting more and more strange. Relatives of serial killer Israel Keyes (I think Keyes killed people over a period of 14 years) are members of this "church", and one of the pastors of this "church" preached Keyes' funeral.

http://www.ktva.com/home/outbound-xml-f ... 73381.html

Wow, they don't just write KJV-style, they talk that way too.

I'm so glad they let us know that Keyes was an atheist. :x

[Dysfundamental]

"Strait and narrow" is a quotation from the KJV, and it means "tight and narrow", not "straight and narrow". Saying "straight and narrow" would be changing the meaning.

The " strait" is the same as in "Strait of Gibraltar" or "straitjacket". It has nothing to do with "straight".

[Joan of Snarc]

These assholes can write the most correct and erudite prose since Cicero but it won't change the fact that they let a baby die from a treatable condition and then tried to raise her from the dead. That's all I need to know about this "church."

*shudder*

And they *do* look so fucking normal.

[wild little fox]

The children don't look normal. Some look like spirit broken little robots. I see it mostly in the girls, but some of the boys look like that, too. The boys who look normal, I wonder if it is because they have a superiority complex. Very troubling!!!

[gulag]

"Strait and narrow" is a quotation from the KJV, and it means "tight and narrow", not "straight and narrow". Saying "straight and narrow" would be changing the meaning.

The " strait" is the same as in "Strait of Gibraltar" or "straitjacket". It has nothing to do with "straight".

Part of the doctrine is choosing/entering the "strait gate." I know it's a reference to a doctrinal concept from Reformation times and merry olde England Puritans, but I don't really know what it means. My impression is that it's a conclusive moment or turning point that means the choice of the lifestyle of salvation and the path of righteousness and the behaviors that go with that.

Hmmm. Cease and desist. Never thought of that. But I am intentional and deliberate to be as accurate and correct as possible, using their own materials. To resist any license to elaborate beyond what I know or embellish and to be clear when it's my own opinion and speculation. 'Truth' is always the best defense to false claims of slander. :lol:

I think one of the reasons that it's going under the radar is the appearance of regular old-fashioned Revival movement stuff. It looks and sounds the same as what the old-school Bible thumpers say, on casual glance. It isn't until you get a deeper look that it becomes apparent that it goes waaayy beyond into the extreme, and isn't really the same at all.

And they've got a handful of evangelical churches and ministries really torn up. They pissed them off big-time. Told the old-school pastors and senior leaders that they were "false Christians" teaching false salvation and not "saved" themselves.

Here's what the leader had to say to his own friends: thechurchofwells.com/an-open-response-to-steve-smith.html

http://www.cbs19.tv/story/18660945/ba?c ... =printable

The reporter gets it slightly wrong, understandably. The group didn't gather around to heal the baby, but to resurrect it.

"Without us realizing what was going on inside her little body, one of her heart valves closed in on her, causing her to slip away from us in a matter of only a few minutes.

Note: A heart valve 'closing in', is not stenosis. It's about lack of proper oxygen being circulated as it should. But to be fair, we can't know how it manifested without educated analysis of the autopsy report. We can guess all day long; it's just speculation. But by the guy's own report to law enforcement, the baby was in some kind of observable distress the whole time. Not "a matter of minutes."]

I was holding her in my hands and tried to revive her, but there was nothing I could do to keep her here...It was hard to believe that she was really gone, but we knew that there had been those who had "received their dead raised to life again" by faith not only in biblical history but also in extra-biblical church history; and that if God so desired, He could hear our prayers and raise her from the dead as well. So we called on the elders of our church to pray, as we sought the Lord with prayer and fasting as a corporate body."

Sean Morris, founder and "pastor":

“As to the charge that we sinned as elders or as a church, when that child died, we believed that it was God’s will to raise her. We don’t think that was a presumptuous thing. We’ve seen many miracles as a church and as individuals: demons cast out, healings. We weren’t just being foolish; we wanted God to be glorified.

In 2 Chronicles 16:12, King Asa sought not the Lord but the physicians, which means he put the physicians in a preeminent place. We are not against hospitals or the medical field. What we’re against is putting any of those things supremely over Christ, not giving him his place as God to heal, or to submit to the leadership of the Holy Ghost. In James 5 and Mark 16, Christ says that it is his will for his people to heal to his glory. Those scriptures have inspired us in the past, and they inspired us in the life of Faith. Sadly, we did not have [enough] faith to see the child healed.â€

[apple1]

Sad, disturbing, and worrisome.

Amazing the degree of cultic behavior that has been reached in such a short time (since 2010 ?? not sure of the exact timeline).

[yewchapel]

Gulag - I think 'the strait gate' is referencing the gate to salvation being narrow ie hard and only open to a few people, based on Matthew 7:14.

(note - these are not my beliefs at all)

[cindyluvs24]

I give it a B- for passive voice and an overuse of Bible quotes to bolster a specious argument. (anyone who would call out Law and Order and Disneyland is an ogre)

[gulag]

The elderest 'Elder', the guy in charge, BossMan, the Big Kahuna, Captain, the Guv'ner.

“As to the charge that we sinned as elders or as a church, when that child died, we believed that it was God’s will to raise her. We don’t think that was a presumptuous thing. We’ve seen many miracles as a church and as individuals: demons cast out, healings. We weren’t just being foolish; we wanted God to be glorified.

In 2 Chronicles 16:12, King Asa sought not the Lord but the physicians, which means he put the physicians in a preeminent place. We are not against hospitals or the medical field. What we’re against is putting any of those things supremely over Christ, not giving him his place as God to heal, or to submit to the leadership of the Holy Ghost. In James 5 and Mark 16, Christ says that it is his will for his people to heal to his glory. Those scriptures have inspired us in the past, and they inspired us in the life of Faith. Sadly, we did not have [enough] faith to see the child healed.â€

- Sean Morris, media statement, 12/6/2012.

More: faith.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=12

[flyawaystray]

Not the same thing, but Michelle Phan (prominent makeup guru on Youtube) had a bunny with some sort of kidney problem. Instead of taking him to the vet, she took him to church and asked for everyone to pray for him. Needless to say, the bunny died and she pissed off a lot of people because she was incredibly shady about the whole thing.

[apple1]

The elderest 'Elder', the guy in charge, BossMan, the Big Kahuna, Captain, the Guv'ner.

Clearly delusional, with a tragic outcome.

The sentences in this quote conflict with each other. They obviously were against doctors and hospitals. And maybe the thing of not wanting anybody to find out what really had gone on.

I read somewhere in my internet searches that a miscarriage had preceded this pregnancy. I also read a report that the mom is Rh negative. (not verified, as far as I can see) An Rh negative mom with an Rh positive pregnancy who has not been appropriately dosed with Rh immune globulin to prevent Rh immunization has basically ensured that future Rh positive pregnancies will be affected by hemolytic disease of the newborn (HDN). Sometimes such high risk pregnancies can be saved by intrauterine transfusions, early delivery, post-delivery exchange transfusion, etc. IF (again, not confirmed, to my knowledge) this is the case, there is going to be another tragedy.

With these general delusions, and a population of young fertile couples with numerous infants and children, there may be numerous opportunities for more tragedies.

[FJismyheadship]

I don't think going straight to the doctor is in anyway putting God second. If my daughter stopped breathing, I would get her to the hospital immediately all the while praying that God help the doctors figure out whats going on and help them fix it. I look at it as having faith that God was putting these people in my life to HELP her. Thats why when my OB suspected water on the brain, I went when she scheduled me an appointment with a high risk OB to get it looked at on a level 2 ultrasound. I do believe in the power of prayer, and all of the people that prayed for me and my baby helped to get rid of whatever the problem was... one week my OB was very solemn about what we saw on the ultrasound... what we had BEEN seeing on the ultrasound. The next week when I went to the other doctor it was gone. However, I also know that if it hadn't worked, I still would have gone to all of my appointments, and when she came, I would have let the doctors do whatever they needed to do to prevent long term problems and keep my baby healthy.

Doctors are placed on this earth for a reason, and I just wish that these extremists would understand that. If God can call someone to the mission field, why can't he call someone to medicine? Why can't he let someone have a heart for helping people and saving lives?

Someone should get in trouble for letting this child die. Even if it couldn't have been prevented, they should have called for help the SECOND the child stopped breathing.

[mlady]

I read up some on this group. I can't imagine that any "movement" started by 3 guys barely into adulthood can morph into something good. Think about how young 20sometings think then corrupt that with relegious zeal and the idea of being smarter than everyone, more special than everyone, more powerful and influencial than everyone, etc. Nope. No way this can end well.

[gulag]

Yeah, apple1, it is contradictory. They don't have issue with medical care, but they do. They say a similar thing about education. They have no problem with schooling and higher education, but they do. It's not Godly.

Read his statement one more time. It's hard to wrap your head around. They weren't faith-healing. The goal was to resurrect a dead baby.

[apple1]

... They weren't faith-healing. The goal was to resurrect a dead baby.

Yes. I also saw that they claimed that EXTRA-Biblical church history documents previous resurrections. IF (and I have not seen such, but IF -) such extra-Biblical history exists, do these educated individuals not realize that the stethoscope was not invented until the early 1800s, and the EKG was not invented until the 1900s? Surely they have heard the expression, "Saved by the bell" ?? My point is that "resurrection" could have easily been claimed for someone who was not dead. Even within this decade I have heard a news story of someone waking up in the morgue because of an error (being thought dead by a nursing home employee or something similar).

That is (among other reasons) why I say they are clearly delusional. Mentally ill in a manner that brings harm to others. This brings me full circle to the earlier question of why the authorities have not intervened.

This is not going to turn out well. My heart goes out to the family members of the people that have been pulled into this mess.

[byHisgrace58]

Not sure how to begin except to say that I am the grandmother of Faith. A good friend referred me to this page and I am so appreciative. I would like to respond to some of the observations made in the previous posts.

First of all, my daughter and son-in-law have 3 other children. She suffered a miscarriage just a little less than an year before Faith was born. No cause was ever determined but I do know she was receiving prenatal care. She had to have a rHogam shot with each of the previous 4 pregnancies. With the last one, they chose to not to (they had become members of the group shortly before discovering she was pregnant). We were still allowed to call and/or text after they moved to Arlington and we would continually ask if she had seen a doctor. Faith was delivered at home by her dad and we were told by text and a picture. We did not speak with them until they called to tell us the baby had died. I asked if they had had the baby checked out and was told there was no need since she was perfectly healthy. We (my husband and I) did not know any of the circumstances surrounding the death until the day before the memorial service when one of my co-workers at church found it on the Internet.

I, too, am concerned for the children in the group. We feel like we have been hogtied by the system. I have requested a copy of the autopsy report. Not sure if it will help but plan to show it to a friend who was the medical examiner for Houston, TX.

Ask and I will attempt to answer. I know that some have read the 50 page "testimony". Yes, we are heart broken...enough said.

Thanks for allowing me to participate.

[Joan of Snarc]

I'm so sorry about the death of your granddaughter ByHisGrace, and also for the estrangement from your daughter and her family. This is really a terrifying "church." In reading that 50-page diatribe, I was struck by the description of your daughter's 60-day intensive "search for God" i.e. programming. I began to see how these things work. If someone berated me for 60 days, withholding my children, food and water I'm sure I'd come to believe whatever they told me also.

How are your other grandchildren? Do you feel like they are being programmed? Do they go to school?

[apple1]

byHisgrace58,

Welcome to FJ.

As a mother and grandmother myself, I cannot even imagine the feelings and the grief you must be going through. Besides my husband, my daughters and my granddaughter are what I love most in this world, and I imagine something similar is the case for you. I suspect this is why I find myself so horrified by this saga. (I have no personal connections to anyone involved BTW).

I also have found myself highly suspicious over the fact that this saga seems to not really be "out there" (internet, etc) nearly as much as I would have expected, and for that reason, I would hope that FJ adds a layer of publicity. I am also shocked by the failure of the authorities to bring appropriate charges. This is also suspicious to me.

You have my good thoughts and prayers that those you love can be extricated from this mess before there is some additional tragedy.

ETA: I hope you will feel free to decline comment if at anytime you feel that either yourself or those you love are jeopardized by commenting.

[byHisgrace58]

I'm so sorry about the death of your granddaughter ByHisGrace, and also for the estrangement from your daughter and her family. This is really a terrifying "church." In reading that 50-page diatribe, I was struck by the description of your daughter's 60-day intensive "search for God" i.e. programming. I began to see how these things work. If someone berated me for 60 days, withholding my children, food and water I'm sure I'd come to believe whatever they told me also.

How are your other grandchildren? Do you feel like they are being programmed? Do they go to school?

I wish I knew how the others were. We have not seen them since June 1 at the memorial service. The girls were upset at not being able to go home with us. They do not go to school that I know of. The youngest is 3, oldest is 5.