Season 6 of 19 Kids and Counting. God help us all!

[Visionoyahweh]

People with their own weight issues need to stop projecting onto other people

THIS :clap:

Love, Vision. (Who lost an incredible amount of weight when he intentionally did it slowly.)

[Sprocket]

I never realized Josh was at "the point of almost having a stroke". I must have missed that somehow. There is snark then there is speculation then there is pulling stuff out of thin air.

When you spend years consuming foods that are high in fat, it's not illogical to assume that they have high cholesterol. People who have high cholesterol are at risk for strokes. That's not pulling stuff out of thin air. Josh is in his early 20's -- if he continues to consume the amount of fast food that he photographs, it's not a far reach to say that he could be at risk for a stroke before he's 40. Am I the only one who saw Super Size Me?

[Hane]

After the wedding, can y'all adopt me? I hear being raised by 2 mommies makes you bisexual and socially awkward, but I'm willing to risk it for quality baked goods :whistle:

Sure. But you'll have to go to UU Sunday school, help with the chores, and watch Logo.

[lilah]

I think Josh and Anna are perfect examples of how our family and culture shape our attitudes towards food. Josh has the longest memory of life before the TLC gravy train and he remembers times when maybe they didn't have enough food for seconds or leftovers, and probably the only time they ate out was a rare trip for fast food. Now that he's an adult he just wants to go a little overboard eating the foods he wasn't able to eat before. Meenwhile he's married to a woman who is also used to cooking for a large family and maybe doesn't get how to portion control works for a family of two adults and two babies.

[thoughtful]

ITA with all of this. You've expressed exactly what I was trying to say in a much more eloquent way. :)

Thanks!

[deelaem]

Seriously? Fuck you sideways. By all means, find ONE post where I have called him "lard lad" or said anything about his weight other than to remark how unhealthy he looks. Don't go pointing fingers until you can back your shit up. He is a douche of epic proportions but that's his personality. I don't think his overeating is a character flaw unless you consider eating your feelings or having food insecurities from not having enough to eat as a kid, which I don't. I think it's sad, but not a character flaw.

People with their own weight issues need to stop projecting onto other people. If it's a subject that's uncomfortable for you and others, stay the fuck away from the instagram thread. But stop acting all butt hurt that people can *gasp* have legitimate feelings of concern for the health of this dude.

And if I wasn't clear, fuck you sideways.

edited because I type fast when I'm pissed the fuck off and spelling goes out the window.

My, my...guess I hit quite a nerve. :lol:

[Jessica]

"We wanted to remain pure", "We treasure purity", "Modesty is so important to us!"... yet you gave birth on TV twice and joke about giving someone the birds & bees talk... again, on TV.

[Sprocket]

My, my...guess I hit quite a nerve. :lol:

The only nerve you hit was telling me that I feel a certain way when I don't.

[She Who Laughs]

When you spend years consuming foods that are high in fat, it's not illogical to assume that they have high cholesterol. People who have high cholesterol are at risk for strokes. That's not pulling stuff out of thin air. Josh is in his early 20's -- if he continues to consume the amount of fast food that he photographs, it's not a far reach to say that he could be at risk for a stroke before he's 40. Am I the only one who saw Super Size Me?

While it entirely possible that he has high cholesterol, it is also possible that his levels are normal. Genetics plays as much, if not more, of a role in your cholesterol levels as what you eat. One of my friends eats more healthy than anyone I know, but she still has to take statins to keep her cholesterol levels at a reasonable level. But, another friend of mine eats in a very similar manner as Josh and she is extremely overweight but her cholesterol levels are lower than average and her ratio between good and bad cholesterol is ideal.

Diet alone is not a good indicator of a person's cholesterol levels.

[CynicMom]

CynicMom, good eating habits do not require wads of cash or a college education. You only have to look at newly arrived immigrants who may or may not be educated past 8th grade and struggling with money to see that they feed their families far better than a Duggar with money. The fact that his mother was so wrapped up in baby making she could not figure out that rice and beans is a cheap and nutrituous meal cannot be fixed with AP nutrition courses. These people raise children like feedlot cattle-feed them the crapiest diet possible so they are technically alive, breed them quick, end it.

Deliberately chosen stupidity is still stupidity. No one can deny there are sociological factors at work in the obesity epidemic. Fresh fruits and veggies are more expensive and less available than processed garbage.

[Sprocket]

While it entirely possible that he has high cholesterol, it is also possible that his levels are normal. Genetics plays as much, if not more, of a role in your cholesterol levels as what you eat. One of my friends eats more healthy than anyone I know, but she still has to take statins to keep her cholesterol levels at a reasonable level. But, another friend of mine eats in a very similar manner as Josh and she is extremely overweight but her cholesterol levels are lower than average and her ratio between good and bad cholesterol is ideal.

Diet alone is not a good indicator of a person's cholesterol levels.

I love when trolls decide to participate in threads and pretend they're not trolls.

[deelaem]

The only nerve you hit was telling me that I feel a certain way when I don't.

Uh-huh, I really believe that. Your calm behavior is proof of that.

No worries, I have no intention of going back to the Instagram thread. You and your immature buddies can be as hateful as you want, and mean ol' deelaem won't bother you.

Now I'm off to get fucked sideways...whatever that means.

[JenniferJuniper]

I love when trolls decide to participate in threads and pretend they're not trolls.

I think said trolls think they can build up a little good will so they can start trolling again.

On a related note, I wonder what sort of cholesterol levels beaten babies and the New Black Panthers have?

[guidedbybobafett]

CynicMom, good eating habits do not require wads of cash or a college education

I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to be argumentative or rude here, because I'm not inserting myself into any weight debates, but I think this is a pretty common misconception about food knowledge. While it certainly does not require a college education, learning how to cook and eat nutritious food does require an education of sorts.

The delicious casserole that someone's mom made when they were growing up, that they associate with good feelings, will for a lot of people seem like a healthy alternative to McDonalds. How can they just know that it's loaded with sodium and fat? It seems intuitive to people who already have that knowledge, but in reality a lot of people are woefully misinformed about nutrition content and and what constitutes good food and bad food.

You speak of 'immigrants' and how they know rice and beans are a healthy choice, but there's recently been a pretty huge initiative with immigrants from Mexico to point out the key things that are missing in a lot of the common food cooked in that community, because it's often heavy on fat and carbohydrates, and there's been an uptick in obesity among their children. People cook and eat what they know, just like people believe and teach what they know, and without a push (either inner or from an outside source), most people will continue to do just that. I don't think it's a fair reaction to assume that because 'you' know how to eat well that everyone who hasn't figured it out yet is willfully ignorant or doesn't care.

[Sprocket]

Uh-huh, I really believe that. Your calm behavior is proof of that.

No worries, I have no intention of going back to the Instagram thread. You and your immature buddies can be as hateful as you want, and mean ol' deelaem won't bother you.

Now I'm off to get fucked sideways...whatever that means.

That's fine. At least I don't project my weight issues and the insecurities surrounding those issues onto strangers on the internet. Because the fact that people have opinions about a man-child who has never had a cheeseburger that he didn't take a picture of -- OBVIOUSLY means people ONLY care that he happens to be overweight. Um, no. Some people may feel that he's not setting a good example for his children by dragging them to every fast food dive on Santorum's circuit. Some people may be genuinely concerned about how unhealthy he looks. Some people may contribute the fact that he eats mostly garbage to the fact that he looks at least 10 years older than his chronological age. AND, some people may just want to call him a fat ass. I don't seem to remember you getting hand slappy and butt hurt when people make jokes about Michelle's uterus being that of a clown car. So these are your weight issues, not ours, and certainly not mine. Good job in trying to sell the notion that everyone here feels exactly the same way about the subject. Cause we all know that every single member here feels exactly the same way about every subject.

[tropaka]

Josh isn't snarkable because he's overweight (personally, he's a big kid; he spent years having to share with more than a dozen other kids and now the reigns are off). He's snarkable because for all the crap promoted by the show - frugality, modesty etc - here's a guy driving around in a hummer and spending a ton of money on fast food when he's supposed to have a wife/slave tending to his every need, posting while driving, and promoting a damaging world view.

[bananacat]

Thanks Boogalou for posting the video! This is the first time I've watched an actual an episode in a long time, and I even watched most of it with minimal skipping. I had a few thoughts:

1) Ok, David is totes flaming. I have absolutely no gaydar at all, and it was obvious to me. When he said that it was the first time he kissed a girl on the lips, he sounded sort of sad and horrified.

2) Jana seems to slur or have a thicker accent or something, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Something is off about her speech and I don't remember it being like that years ago. Also, when Jackson was speaking in the interview I could barely understand him. I hope it's just because it's awkward to talk on command to a camera and maybe he doesn't always talk like that.

3) Did they really show packing again? Really? It was boring the first time they showed it. It was boring the other 100 times they showed it. Why did they think it would be interesting just because Jana was in charge this time?

4) It seemed like Anna frequently emphasized that Priscilla is her older sister. I wonder what that's all about. Maybe she's just used to doing it to differentiate between her numerous sisters, but it seemed weird to me.

5) Did you notice how Smugs kissed Anna after he lost the tennis match? He was practically saying "Well, you won the tennis match but at least I get to kiss a girl!"

[bananacat]

I just wanna say that I'm team deelaem. I tried to bring up this issue years ago when it first started but eventually I gave up. Hopefully you will last longer than I did.

I do have one thing to add in general. I'm really sick of these people who make a big deal about good fatties versus bad fatties. Some fat people will insist up and down that while their own fatness is ok because they can't help it, they're still allowed to judge all those other bad fatties because they don't have an acceptable reason for being fat. Honestly, I'm fat because of some medical issues and also because I eat food that I enjoy. I could try to justify my weight, but frankly I just don't have to. Even for people who don't have a thyroid problem or take medications that cause weight gain, it's not as simple as just eating less or different foods. When you tell someone to just eat less, you are also telling them to just be hungry more. Hunger is a strong force and it's not a matter of willpower. You don't get a medal and a pat on the back for being hungry all the time. There are ways that most people can feel full on less food or different food, but shaming them won't ever help them. And satisfying hunger should never be considered a fucking crime.

[Sprocket]

But it's okay to call the clothing that the fundies wear "frumpers" -- that's not putting down their choice of clothing. Maybe it's all they can afford. It's okay to discuss ad nauseum the hairsprayed-wet crunchy curls that the Duggar girls/other fundies sport -- that's not putting down their appearance. It's okay to have a whole thread dedicated to the "horrid" green shirts that Michelle wears -- maybe she likes them and thinks they bring out her eyes. It's okay to point out that wearing flip flops on a mountain hike is not wise -- maybe they were comfortable. It's THEIR choice!!!! It's "no one's business" what they do. Yet they are on television pimping out their lifestyle as the only way to live. The fact of the matter is, we discuss lots of things and make disparraging remarks about their appearance all the effing time. But when it comes to something about their appearance that hits a little closer to home for you personally, you have to get your panties in a wad. You also have to go on and on and tell us all what horrible people we are for participating in commentary that is about one, single aspect of their appearance when I'm sure you, yourself have denigrated an aspect of their appearance as well. Cause that's not hypocritical or anything.

[Deleted01]

I think Josh and Anna are perfect examples of how our family and culture shape our attitudes towards food. Josh has the longest memory of life before the TLC gravy train and he remembers times when maybe they didn't have enough food for seconds or leftovers, and probably the only time they ate out was a rare trip for fast food. Now that he's an adult he just wants to go a little overboard eating the foods he wasn't able to eat before. Meenwhile he's married to a woman who is also used to cooking for a large family and maybe doesn't get how to portion control works for a family of two adults and two babies.

This.

[Boogalou]

First of all I hate to agree with a troll but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Now that that uncomfortable moment is out of the way...

No one here has said "you CANNOT discuss Josh's weight and call him Lard Lad, we need a rule against it pronto!!!!11" people are only saying that fat bashing sucks. Honestly, I don't see this as being the same as handslapping because no one is saying "don't do it" they are saying that it sucks when it's done. People are free to say whatever the hell they want here and other people are free to respond. I also really don't see how currently being a part of or once belonging to a group makes it OK to insult and bash them. Just because I am female doesn't give me a free pass to make misogynistic remarks.

Finally, putting down Josh for being fat is in no way comparable to frumpers, crunchy hair, green shirts, and flip flops. Fat shaming is systemic problem in our society with negative real world consequences for a lot of people to the point that people with health problems who are overweight are simply told to lose weight when the health problems they are having are not at all related to their weight so that the real problems get overlooked, overweight people (especially women) earn less than people who fit conventional size standards, etc. These same problems do not affect crunchy-haired flip flop wearers.

Sorry for typos and run on sentences. I am tired and about to go to bed.

[YPestis]

Finally, putting down Josh for being fat is in no way comparable to frumpers, crunchy hair, green shirts, and flip flops. Fat shaming is systemic problem in our society with negative real world consequences for a lot of people to the point that people with health problems who are overweight are simply told to lose weight when the health problems they are having are not at all related to their weight so that the real problems get overlooked, overweight people (especially women) earn less than people who fit conventional size standards, etc. These same problems do not affect crunchy-haired flip flop wearers.

There is a difference between taunting someone with their weight and commenting on the real mortality risks of obesity. I see talking about the health consequences of obesity as no different than talking about the health consequences of anorexia. We talk about the eating disorders which are endemic in the modeling world and yet it is not seen as persecuting thin people. I think it's mean to call Josh lardass or whatever they are saying on his instagram thread. That does not help Josh and won't make his weight issues go away. However, I hope Josh does go see someone about his rapid weight gain. It is not all healthy.

Finally, I see little difference between comments on weight vs clothing/hair/shoes. They both make fun of people's general appearance and can be hurtful if said to people's faces. As a child, I was made fun of for my clothes and general appearance. I don't think it's any less hurtful than those that were made fun of for their weight. That said, this is a snark board. We sometimes post comments which would never be said to anyone's face. I don't feel weight should get a special treatment. If we can't comment on someone's weight gain/weight issues, then why should we be allowed to comment on their hair or skin discoloration? Or that big mole on their forehead? It's the nature of TV viewing that people who step in front of the camera will have their appearances critiqued. I don't believe in making fun of people for their weight. I certainly don't tell patients to 'eat less'---any doc will tell you that's the worst advice to give someone trying to lose weight....but I also don't believe a person's weight is somehow off-limits, especially when so much other aspects of Duggars/Botkins/Maxwells' lives are open for discussion.

I hope I haven't offended anyone with my stance. My SO recently gained weight and is sensitive about it. However, we both understand that there's a difference between fat shaming and talking about the health consequences of obesity. We see a clear line there. I hope most people on this board can too.

[Hannie]

Every time I hear someone talk about working "at a ministry in Chicago" I have to think about this article and what might be going on there behind the scenes:

recoveringgrace.org/2012/04/exploited-innocence/#more

[Palimpsest]

On the Josh's weight issue, I think Thoughtful said it best. I have nothing else to add.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

However, I do reserve the absolute right to snark on Fundie recipes containing Cream of Crap soup and Velveeta cheese product. Those dishes are not just bad for you, they make baby Jesus weep and destroy tastebuds on contact. :twisted:

This concept comes from Debi Pearl in "Created To Be His Helpmeet". She says there are three different kinds of men: visionary, steady, and command. Here's a link to Lori Alexander explaining it: lorialexander.blogspot.com/2011/05/three-types-of-men.html

Thank you! That was nagging my brain ever since I saw the clip because I couldn't remember the other types or where they came from. This was precisely what Jill meant. These girls probably spend hours discussing the Pearl typology and combinations thereof!

I googled some more and to refresh my memory. It's Visionary (totally irreponsible), Kingly Command (border-line abusive, if not abusive), and Steady (neither of the other two and boring) men. The helpmeets are Dreamers, Servants and Go-to Girls. Apparently the helpmeet must adapt fast if she has the misfortune to have Daddy pick someone who doesn't go with her "type."

For people who haven't lurked on 7X Sunday /www.littlenaturalcottage.com/2012/being-an-helpmeet-to-the-kingly-command-man/ is the first of 3 posts talking about this. Caution. Do not read while eating!

Edit to break link

[Arete]

I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to be argumentative or rude here, because I'm not inserting myself into any weight debates, but I think this is a pretty common misconception about food knowledge. While it certainly does not require a college education, learning how to cook and eat nutritious food does require an education of sorts.

The delicious casserole that someone's mom made when they were growing up, that they associate with good feelings, will for a lot of people seem like a healthy alternative to McDonalds. How can they just know that it's loaded with sodium and fat? It seems intuitive to people who already have that knowledge, but in reality a lot of people are woefully misinformed about nutrition content and and what constitutes good food and bad food.

You speak of 'immigrants' and how they know rice and beans are a healthy choice, but there's recently been a pretty huge initiative with immigrants from Mexico to point out the key things that are missing in a lot of the common food cooked in that community, because it's often heavy on fat and carbohydrates, and there's been an uptick in obesity among their children. People cook and eat what they know, just like people believe and teach what they know, and without a push (either inner or from an outside source), most people will continue to do just that. I don't think it's a fair reaction to assume that because 'you' know how to eat well that everyone who hasn't figured it out yet is willfully ignorant or doesn't care.

The uptick in obesity in Mexican-American children has to do with their entry into the US fast food/minimal activity culture, not because they practice their traditional diet. I understand what you are saying about the casserole, but once again, even with fat and sodium, it is a FAR better alternative to the fast food diet Josh Duggar is indulging in. The casserole will likely have a better quality meat source and some veggies in it. When I use the word 'immigrant' in this context, I am not being flip or condescending. My own background is first generation, but their is a common theme in the cooking brought over from Mexico, India,Greece, China, Italy, Vietnam, Thailand, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. These cultures still practice from scratch cooking with as many fresh ingredients as possible. It doesn't matter that the cuisines are vastly divergent. They do not in general worry about fat or calories at all in terms of choosing which dishes a young family will eat. Broccoli with bechamel sauce is still going to win the nutrition sweepstakes every time over a Happy Meal. A big part of these cuisines is the food of the PEASANTRY.

That is what is being lost in the US fast food culture. How to prepare and eat veggies and greens. Physical activity. The fact that meat doesn't make a meal. Someone forgot to tell people from other countries that they need to enter the proccessed food race. The Duggars CHOSE to become a breeding farm and have to feed their 19 kids crap when they could have had a very respectable diet with only 3-4 kids. There are farmers markets close to them, they now have land to grow food on, and yet the crap diet remains. Michelle Duggar did not graduate from a public high school without exposure to the concepts of good nutrition along the way. All the things that can legitimately block a person from good food, such as living in a food dessert, having one crap mini mart available to buy groceries, does not apply to them. Their poverty was of their own making. No dammit, in this case, it really was. They could have that gross TTC once a month and still have an excellent diet. For them, feeding their kids a crap diet was an acceptable price to pay in the baby arms race.