Zack Bates and Sarah Reith Courtship Kaput

[DarkAnts]

No that tension is there cos they both want to beat each other in the baby making stakes. Remember how competitive they are in earlier episodes. Just my take on it.

It would also explain Jana's almost response when asked about courtships on one of the episodes.

[pixydust]

It would also explain Jana's almost response when asked about courtships on one of the episodes.

But she seemed kind of sad (if we are thinking of the same one), like some boy had courted her and broke it off, or some boy that she really liked wanted to court her and JB shot it down (oh, maybe she did really like Zach and JB shot it down, hmm).

[Common]

:roll: With friends like this... It appears a lot of the fundies we snark on need to find some better friends who won't blab all their personal information to a snark board. I don't get it when people do things like this. Assuming this is true (which I doubt) and that you will come back (which I also doubt) Alisson78 what are you hoping to accomplish by posting this?

I also think this is trolling. She does so many things people do when lying or trying to convince you of some BS:

Attempt to establish the legitimacy of what they're saying before they say it "Thought I would share and interesting fact..."

Present credentials to win your trust "I had personally know the Bates"...

Uses unnecessary numbers (numbers are easy lies, people tend to revert to them when they're bs'ing, it's like a crutch) In this case she is additionally vague because she knows it's a lie so it is padded with an approximation "...for about 6 or 7 years"

She repeats "fact" again to reinforce this story that her conscience knows is, literally, unbelievable.

Also spelled Zach wrong, doesn't prove anything by itself but shows she likely didn't know them for 7, or 6 years. I can't say for sure it is a lie, it just reads like one.

[deelaem]

I also think this is trolling. She does so many things people do when lying or trying to convince you of some BS:

Attempt to establish the legitimacy of what they're saying before they say it "Thought I would share and interesting fact..."

Present credentials to win your trust "I had personally know the Bates"...

Uses unnecessary numbers (numbers are easy lies, people tend to revert to them when they're bs'ing, it's like a crutch) In this case she is additionally vague because she knows it's a lie so it is padded with an approximation "...for about 6 or 7 years"

She repeats "fact" again to reinforce this story that her conscience knows is, literally, unbelievable.

Also spelled Zach wrong, doesn't prove anything by itself but shows she likely didn't know them for 7, or 6 years. I can't say for sure it is a lie, it just reads like one.

Excellent assessment skills - I agree!

[Common]

Excellent assessment skills - I agree!

TY ;) I would have liked to believe it for it's juiciness, but I just started ticking off truth points as I read, half way through my hopes of juicy schadenfreude were dashed.

[Miggy]

I read all "facts" on the internet with suspicion, especially when people claim to be friends with someone famous (I use that word loosely) but...

If Gil did approach JB about a courtship, JB would spend a lot of time praying but I think he would also spend a lot of time talking with his daughter and would take her opinion very seriously. For all his faults, Jim Bob really does love his kids. (No, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time actually looking after them and yes, he enjoys the hero worship he gets from them but he also enjoys spending time playing with them and he knows them much better than Michelle.) I couldn't imagine him ever pushing them into a courtship and/or marriage they didn't want. Would shy, quiet Jana want to be courted by Zach?

[DarkAnts]

I read all "facts" on the internet with suspicion, especially when people claim to be friends with someone famous (I use that word loosely) but...

If Gil did approach JB about a courtship, JB would spend a lot of time praying but I think he would also spend a lot of time talking with his daughter and would take her opinion very seriously. For all his faults, Jim Bob really does love his kids. (No, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time actually looking after them and yes, he enjoys the hero worship he gets from them but he also enjoys spending time playing with them and he knows them much better than Michelle.) I couldn't imagine him ever pushing them into a courtship and/or marriage they didn't want. Would shy, quiet Jana want to be courted by Zach?

If JB did turn down a courtship, I would put my money on it being his inability to provide Jana with a home. Zach has no house and cant rent one from his family. He has no job outside the family one and that is not enough to provide for one family.

[luckystone]

If JB did turn down a courtship, I would put my money on it being his inability to provide Jana with a home. Zach has no house and cant rent one from his family. He has no job outside the family one and that is not enough to provide for one family.

How was Zach expecting to look after this Sarah girl then? If he has no house or real money is he ready to court?

And yes, I like to think JB with all his flaws would listen to what the girl said. He does seem considerate of the kids even if he's totally crazy, more so than J'Uterus.

[Deleted07]

How was Zach expecting to look after this Sarah girl then? If he has no house or real money is he ready to court?

And yes, I like to think JB with all his flaws would listen to what the girl said. He does seem considerate of the kids even if he's totally crazy, more so than J'Uterus.

Exactly! I think if two girls and their Fathers have turned him down, it says to me that he is not ready to be courting and needs to look at stabilizing an education or career first and put the courting ideals out of his head until he is properly able to take care of a family!

From the website about Zach

Zach is continuing to pursue his degree in History and Criminal Justice. He completed his last semester of EMT training with a 4.0 and was recently elected as the youngest county commissioner in our state. He’s thankful for the local support he received and for the opportunity to help serve his county. He’s actively involved in working with the sheriff’s department and the volunteer fire department.

So it doesn't appear he is earning anything at the moment, and while I commend him for working on degrees for his education, I wonder if he is going to an actual college or University for them and what he will do once he has them?

[Deleted07]

Just looked at the CollegeMinus website, and yep they offer History and Criminal Justice, so its a distinct possibly he is getting his education through there...

BA History

Major Focus

A BA in History is a great move if you are interested in gaining a greater understanding of significant events and important people in the history of Western culture and the world.

Students take courses like:

Western Civilization

History of the United States

The Civil War and Reconstruction

Rise and Fall of the Soviet Union

Introduction to the Modern Middle East

Career Opportunities

The job possibilities with an undergraduate degree in History are vast and varied, including: Lawyer, Educator, Librarian, Politician, Legislative Analyst, Lobbyist, Archivist, Researcher, Museum Curator/Guide, and Writer/Editor.

BA Criminal Justice

Major Focus

The BA in Criminal Justice is perfect if you are interested in gaining a working knowledge of law enforcement, the judicial process, and criminal justice.

Students take courses like:

Law Enforcement

Juvenile Justice

White Collar Crime

Terrorism

Criminology

Career Opportunities

Criminal Justice graduates pursue careers at local, state, and federal levels, including: Police Officer, State Trooper, Investigator, Probation Officer, Caseworker, Corrections counselor and Clinical Psychologist.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I read all "facts" on the internet with suspicion, especially when people claim to be friends with someone famous (I use that word loosely) but...

If Gil did approach JB about a courtship, JB would spend a lot of time praying but I think he would also spend a lot of time talking with his daughter and would take her opinion very seriously. For all his faults, Jim Bob really does love his kids. (No, he doesn't seem to spend a lot of time actually looking after them and yes, he enjoys the hero worship he gets from them but he also enjoys spending time playing with them and he knows them much better than Michelle.) I couldn't imagine him ever pushing them into a courtship and/or marriage they didn't want. Would shy, quiet Jana want to be courted by Zach?

This.

With all the talk of Quiverfull and patriarchy, Jim Bob actually appears to favor the four older daughters. He seems to have "issues" with the older boys and the little kids are just sort of there. Jim Bob also seems to have A LOT of hangups about growing up poor. I can't see him agreeing to a courtship/marriage between one of his precious girls and a young man who cannot provide for her. I would even go as far as to say that the potential suitor's bank account trumps religious purity. If one of the girls happened to attract a fundie lite guy with big bucks-- for example, a major figure in the lucrative Christian music industry-- Jim Bob would give that union his blessing over a match between a Duggar girl and some barefoot Gothard bumpkin who ekes out a living selling cheesy homemade junk over the Internet and plans to move his bride into a trailer in his parents' backyard.

[Pretzel]

And yes, I like to think JB with all his flaws would listen to what the girl said. He does seem considerate of the kids even if he's totally crazy, more so than J'Uterus.

This. After all, I think JB really loves his family. He wouldn't marry off one of his children without them truly wanting it and truly asking about their opinions and feelings. He also appears to be someone who puts big value on economic security and wouldn't want one of his children to live in dire poverty. Too much of his own childhood trauma, I guess. He might be a douche in any other respect but I can't picture him being one in that area.

[lilith]

This. After all, I think JB really loves his family. He wouldn't marry off one of his children without them truly wanting it and truly asking about their opinions and feelings. He also appears to be someone who puts big value on economic security and wouldn't want one of his children to live in dire poverty. Too much of his own childhood trauma, I guess. He might be a douche in any other respect but I can't picture him being one in that area.

I can see him putting pretty heavy pressure on his daughters if a wealthy man or a man influential in conservative politics or the IFB movement came calling for them though.

Not forcing, exactly, but keeping at them and pushing the match til they agreed.

And I can see him pushing for a match with a wealthy or influential enough suitor even if there were issues such as accusations of immorality, him being much older, a suspected homosexual or some such concern.

I really do think that part of the reason he is keeping the older girls unmarried is cause he is aiming very high, especially for Jana and Jessa.

[Coconut Flan]

That is one thing the Maxwell family does seem to do right by their community standards. The guys all have houses either ready or getting ready before they propose. I can see Jim Bob thiking that Zach Bates or anyone in his situation is a poor risk. Look at the parents and how much help they need and the son seems to have less going for him than his dad. I'm not onboard with believing the story but I can imagine perhaps a hint was dropped and snuffed out based on the lack of ability to support.

[twin2]

This.

With all the talk of Quiverfull and patriarchy, Jim Bob actually appears to favor the four older daughters. He seems to have "issues" with the older boys and the little kids are just sort of there. Jim Bob also seems to have A LOT of hangups about growing up poor. I can't see him agreeing to a courtship/marriage between one of his precious girls and a young man who cannot provide for her. I would even go as far as to say that the potential suitor's bank account trumps religious purity. If one of the girls happened to attract a fundie lite guy with big bucks-- for example, a major figure in the lucrative Christian music industry-- Jim Bob would give that union his blessing over a match between a Duggar girl and some barefoot Gothard bumpkin who ekes out a living selling cheesy homemade junk over the Internet and plans to move his bride into a trailer in his parents' backyard.

Yes, I think the money issue plays a role. Thanks to the TLC gravy chain Dimbulb has been able to give his daughters a rather cushy life not enjoyed by most quiverfulls. I can't see him giving his daughter to the poverty of most quiverfulls.

Hmm, this gets me thinking. The Duggers have been spending a lot of time at VF lately. Perhaps a courtship between a Duggar gal and JT? What a merger that would be!

[DarkAnts]

Yes, I think the money issue plays a role. Thanks to the TLC gravy chain Dimbulb has been able to give his daughters a rather cushy life not enjoyed by most quiverfulls. I can't see him giving his daughter to the poverty of most quiverfulls.

Hmm, this gets me thinking. The Duggers have been spending a lot of time at VF lately. Perhaps a courtship between a Duggar gal and JT? What a merger that would be!

I think JB and Michelle were living a fairly comfortable life before TLC came along. They have property that is bringing income. That was their main source of income before TLC and will continue after TLC. TLC did help finish the house but JB did purchase the land and the house kit.

[Mela99]

Wasn't that one of the huge obstacles for Smuggar when he told Boob he wanted to court Anna? Boob told him he needed to have a house and be able to support a family?

Zack doesn't have a house yet. Even all the Maxwells had houses...

[SisiL78]

Can someone explain to me how an online degree in Criminal Justice is even slightly marketable? I don't know much about it but I'd assume that CJ is a degree that would result in mixing with other people. They'd need to have hands on experience and some sort of training that cannot be achieved online.

What else could you do in the Gothard QF world with a CJ degree? Even an EMT would be tough. What about being an EMT called to an sick woman? What if she's a harlot and he has to save her life? In normal circumstances this wouldn't be an issue, but the Bates family is far from normal.

Seems like Zach has his interests split between a variety of hobbies, not career paths. His current elected position probably doesn't pay much if at all (does anyone know for sure?). The college minus degree is not going to do him much good without a lot of additional work.

I really, truly, do not understand how these folks can encourage humungous families while simultaneously financially crippling their children so that those large families live in poverty. I often wonder if they don't have a secret ceremony for QF and Gothard folks where they pledge to use zero logic in raising their children.

[BayLee_10]

I think JB and Michelle were living a fairly comfortable life before TLC came along. They have property that is bringing income. That was their main source of income before TLC and will continue after TLC. TLC did help finish the house but JB did purchase the land and the house kit.

[DarkAnts]

I think JB and Michelle were living a fairly comfortable life before TLC came along. They have property that is bringing income. That was their main source of income before TLC and will continue after TLC. TLC did help finish the house but JB did purchase the land and the house kit.

It did seem that Jana's 'depression' happened about the same time that Zach and Sarah were courting, didn't it? If Jana were interested in Zach, wouldn't you suppose that Jim Bob could come up with the $$$ to help them along? Before you ask, this is the first time I have heard of a Zach and Jana possible courtship so I have nothing to add to the truth or untruth of this.

To add to the 'criminal justice' degree being useful. Zach does volunteer with the Sheriff's Dept. It might help him get a regular job with them. This is just a guess.

[bananacat]

If the story is true, then it perfectly highlights how stupid courtship is. Heartbroken because someone turned you down for a courtship? That's ridiculous. I've asked guys out before and sometimes they say no and that is disappointing, but I would never be heartbroken over something that never even happened, even when I was a teenager. Heartbroken is what happens when you break up with a boyfriend or a husband, not what happens when someone you're interested in isn't interested back.

[ChunkyBarbie]

I think the father of any young woman Zach wanted to court would be wise to look at Zach's parents. They have no problem letting Lawson support them and his siblings. Even if I drank the fundy kool-aid, I wouldn't want my daughter marrying some kid without the means to support her and their children and whose parents can't support their own family. It appears that Zach feels that financial instability is normal and there isn't a strong need to get it together before making life long commitments such as, marriage and parenthood.*

For the life of me, I can't understand why these fundy parents can't see they are sabotaging their blessings futures with these faux educations. If nothing else, why can't they see they are wasting good money on college minus? Parenting fail.

Eta* Why should he, his parents clearly don't feel responsible to provide financial stability for their family. God and Lawson will provide...

[moreorlessnu]

I think JB and Michelle were living a fairly comfortable life before TLC came along. They have property that is bringing income. That was their main source of income before TLC and will continue after TLC. TLC did help finish the house but JB did purchase the land and the house kit.

They were living in a rented house with 2 bathrooms for 14 kids. They had to find new living quarters because that rented house was being torn down by the owners. Meanwhile the tinker toys house was taking forever to finish before TLC stepped in.

I would say they live fairly comfortably now, but I would not say they did then.

[moreorlessnu]

This scenario doesn't seem like how these "courtships" play out. It behooves them to have these kinds of conversations in private (not to make a big to-do of them in a restaurant). This way, if the girl's father doesn't like the young man, or if the girl herself doesn't like the young man, no one has to know that this is technically a "failed" courtship. And, since God sends/lays on hearts/encourages/purposes/porpoises/whatever the whole courtship process, failed courtships shouldn't be happening at all.

I doubt the TLC cameras would have been there had there been any doubt in anyone's mind that Anna would refuse Josh's proposal.

[socalrules]

My undergrad degree is in Criminal Justice. I got it because I loved the subject and knew I was going to law school after graduation. I don’t think it is a rinky dink degree but you have to know how to use it. Of course, I got my degree at a real brick and mortar university . There are a lot of careers you can go into with a criminal justice degree. I know peers that became police officers, probation officers, lawyers, teachers and many went on for their masters in criminalistics in order to become real CSIs.

Zach has two major problems with a Criminal Justice degree. 1. It is a degree that you can really only use while interacting with people. It really isn’t something that is useful for a home-based business. 2. Unless he went to an accredited college to earn his degree, I cannot see it being useful in helping him get a real job.

I cannot see Zach becoming a police officer. I don't see him being able to pass the written or physical test. I am not sure he would pass the psych exam either. If he somehow made it through the Academy and graduated, he would still have problem. He would have to interact with all types of people and be non-judgmental. You can’t decide not to help them or listen to them because they are not Christian or you don’t agree with their way of life. Also, he will have to speak with women and sometimes there will not be someone else there for accountability. Finally, I cannot see him being able to even interact with his fellow police officers. He might have a gay, Athiest or female supervisor. Will he be able to take orders from them?

I don’t see why Zach would major in History or Criminal Justice. Both majors require the study of information that would normally be taboo in the fundy world. History is full of all types of batshit crazy awesomeness that we know fundies normally don’t allow their children to know about. In Criminal Justice, I had a forensic science class where we spent a lot of time talking about semen and other bodily fluids that can be used to find perpetrators. The stories alone, which sometimes had sexual aspects, would probably freak Zach out. I doubt Zach’s “college class†will ever discuss about anything like that.

Has anyone ever seen any of the course materials of the "colleges" the fundies attend? I have always wondered if they just cut out large sections of information so as not to dirty their pure hearts. Blah.