Nie posts pic of daughter's genitals

[emmiedahl]

A person who looks different is not less human. They have their own emotions and lives, and should not have to worry about how other people feel upon viewing them. And if you are reading the blog of a woman with an anencephalic infant, what the hell did you expect to see there?

[LilMissMetaphor]

A person who looks different is not less human.

Thanks Teach. I guess I had to run to the bathroom during that part of the lecture in morality class. I really thought, you know, that...our outsides were all that mattered.

I think you're just working off Alecto's post where she was wildly extrapolating from my "this scared the crap out of me" to "this looks less than human".

[CrazyCatLady]

[CrazyCatLady]

Really? No pictures whatsoever? Promise? I'm dying to know how she's doing, I learned about her in high school, and it's just awful what happened to her.

No pics at all on her wikipedia page. I saw her on Oprah's last season, and her face looks much better than it did since her first Oprah appearance (2003 i think). She is just so amazing. I guess her mother died recently, they were very close and it has caused her to struggle significantly with depression. She is also trying to raise more money for her continued surgeries, IIRC.

[LilMissMetaphor]

i got my doctorate in clinical psych. exposure is a very legit way to treat phobias...of course it's best to do it gradually :)

Interesting. What would you say about its effectiveness compared to other treatment options? How would you go about determining whether exposure was a good way to treat a particular phobia (do some work better than others)? Also, what do you think of claims that phobias can be treated after an hour of therapy?

[Eclipse]

I am far more bothered by the fact that sharing that picture could be a problem in your kid's eyes one day.

The internet is forever. Its one thing to have a naked baby picture in a family album in your own house and its another for you to put it up on the internet. Once you post it, you've lost control over it forever. Even if the picture is taken down, it doesn't mean it still can't be found on the way back machine, in a cache or that someone else hasn't saved it. When this girl is a teenager, she won't want her friends or a boy finding this picture by a search or reading this blog. Or when she grows up and an employer finds it? People search others all the time. Parents need to be responsible about what they post about their children online and posting pictures like that shows a lack of judgement and is not in the child's best interest. I don't understand what the point of posting that picture was but to get attention because its controversial. It didn't add to the blog entry at all or the story of the day she was telling. Parents change their young children's diaper every day, even on car trips! It isn't really blog worthy. The picture has no artistic merit. To me, that is a bad parent as she is not acting in her child's best interest, or any other interest but her own.

[emmiedahl]

Thanks Teach. I guess I had to run to the bathroom during that part of the lecture in morality class. I really thought, you know, that...our outsides were all that mattered.

I think you're just working off Alecto's post where she was wildly extrapolating from my "this scared the crap out of me" to "this looks less than human".

I think I began posting before Alecto. When you say things like this, it does come across as dehumanizing:

... she should have a warning label on that blog because holy crap her face scared the shit out of me, and I'm not being a bitch.

I'm sure there are people (I'm not one of them) for whom burn pictures are a trigger. Sure, her right to go out trumps anyone else's reaction to her face, whatever.

I'm pretty sure that it's not considered therapeutic or otherwise generally advisable to force people with phobias to come face to face with their trigger.

That does come across to me, and probably to a lot of people, as "She needs to hide her face or have a trigger warning on her forehead or something." I am sorry if I misunderstood, the interwebz are like that.

[Alecto]

... she should have a warning label on that blog because holy crap her face scared the shit out of me, and I'm not being a bitch.

This. This right here.

When you say this, even if you use the disclaimer "I am not being a bitch" you have used words that make me feel that you have dehumanized her, made her into a monster because of a physical deformity. And to be fair, using a phrase "I am not being a bitch" is kind of like making a racist remark and then saying you have black friends. Your statements are cruel and bitchy.

[CrazyCatLady]

Interesting. What would you say about its effectiveness compared to other treatment options? How would you go about determining whether exposure was a good way to treat a particular phobia (do some work better than others)? Also, what do you think of claims that phobias can be treated after an hour of therapy?

Quite frankly, i wouldn't use other treatment options because in vivo exposure is so effective. When people are afraid of things that the will encounter frequently or semi-frequently they either have to learn to manage their fear/anxiety or suffer a serious decline in quality of life.

Clinical judgement comes into play when it comes to determining how fast the treatment should go. If a person came to me who was afraid of spiders we might start out just saying the word "spider" out loud many times, then draw a picture of a spider, then look at still pictures of spiders, then watch a video of spiders, then watch spiders outside IRL, then touch the spider, then eventually hold the spider. Basically you are working yourself up to being able to endure and cope with your fear and anxiety. You might never actually LIKE spiders but you can handle the idea of them and not go completely ballistic if you see one/think about one/hear about one, etc. It's not likely that someone will conquer a phobia if they never face it.

I think a phobia can certainly be treated in an hour of therapy but not cured. If it is cured so easily, it was probably not a true phobia to begin with.

[LilMissMetaphor]

Quite frankly, i wouldn't use other treatment options because in vivo exposure is so effective. When people are afraid of things that the will encounter frequently or semi-frequently they either have to learn to manage their fear/anxiety or suffer a serious decline in quality of life.

Clinical judgement comes into play when it comes to determining how fast the treatment should go. If a person came to me who was afraid of spiders we might start out just saying the word "spider" out loud many times, then draw a picture of a spider, then look at still pictures of spiders, then watch a video of spiders, then watch spiders outside IRL, then touch the spider, then eventually hold the spider. Basically you are working yourself up to being able to endure and cope with your fear and anxiety. You might never actually LIKE spiders but you can handle the idea of them and not go completely ballistic if you see one/think about one/hear about one, etc. It's not likely that someone will conquer a phobia if they never face it.

Hm. I'm still curious about this. I'm sure it wouldn't work the first time for many arachnophobes (to continue using this particular example). It seems like you would get as far as the watching spiders in a video or in IRL part over and over again. And that seems cruel. So how many times would you attempt exposure therapy before giving up and trying a different treatment? It strikes me as awfully hard-nosed and potentially far more traumatic than, say, experimenting with meds.

[CrazyCatLady]

i don't do meds personally (i'm not an MD) but i am open to working with families (i mostly work with children) to determine when and if this is necessary. and it can take a LONG time and it can be very, very hard for someone to get to a point where they can manage a phobia. I don't expect 100% total cure, but i think anxiety and fear can be lessened. Phobia work is really hard, and i am upfront with clients and their families that it is a difficult process. i also work to incorporate negative thought blocking (changing how you think about the object of your phobia) and relaxation techniques/coping skills.

I understand how it can seem cruel, but remember this person has agreed that they want this treatment. It's important to be sensitive and to know when the person has been pushed far enough during a given session.

[LucySnowe]

On another topic - what kind of a plane crash was it? I was trying to find out on the site but it doesn't seem to play well with my browser. Commercial or private plane? I kind of get the sense of the latter.

[treemom]

Or someone's half missing head? Yes.

I just...I just can't. The self absorption is making me dumbstruck.

[treemom]

Interesting. What would you say about its effectiveness compared to other treatment options? How would you go about determining whether exposure was a good way to treat a particular phobia (do some work better than others)? Also, what do you think of claims that phobias can be treated after an hour of therapy?

Exposure is a way to treat anxiety too. And it is very effective.

[BelieveinScience]

I think I began posting before Alecto. When you say things like this, it does come across as dehumanizing:

That does come across to me, and probably to a lot of people, as "She needs to hide her face or have a trigger warning on her forehead or something." I am sorry if I misunderstood, the interwebz are like that.

I read it how you read it. I thought she was just being a bitch, though.

[Clementine]

On another topic - what kind of a plane crash was it? I was trying to find out on the site but it doesn't seem to play well with my browser. Commercial or private plane? I kind of get the sense of the latter.

It was a small (four seats, I think) private plane. Her husband Christian was taking flying lessons with a flight instructor and NieNie went with them for a flight between Arizona and New Mexico. The flight instructor died in the crash.

[mirele]

It was a small (four seats, I think) private plane. Her husband Christian was taking flying lessons with a flight instructor and NieNie went with them for a flight between Arizona and New Mexico. The flight instructor died in the crash.

They're suing the (very small) town where the crash occurred, because, of course, the way the airport was set up, it was dangerous. Nothing about how Christian was taking flying lessons had anything to do with it. It's just that the (very small) town has deep pockets.

Of course, Christian and NieNie have gone off to Utah, on top of that.

[CrazyCatLady]

They're suing the (very small) town where the crash occurred, because, of course, the way the airport was set up, it was dangerous. Nothing about how Christian was taking flying lessons had anything to do with it. It's just that the (very small) town has deep pockets.

Of course, Christian and NieNie have gone off to Utah, on top of that.

aren't they also suing the dead guy's family despite the fact that his widow gave them part of his life insurance money? the plane was in disrepair and had already had problems that day but they chose to keep flying.

[Effie]

And while I only minored in psych at uni, I'm pretty sure that it's not considered therapeutic or otherwise generally advisable to force people with phobias to come face to face with their trigger.

A degree in psychology is great. :) It's not so "only". (Getting my first degree was hard.)

I'm not sure where I mentioned compulsory therapy...? I doubt that would be successful, since you can only achieve results if you are motivated.

What I meant to say was my personal (and not my professional) opinion that I think we have a responsibility to overcome certain phobias: the fears which dehumanize other people. With responsibility I mean towards yourself and towards other people (as long as you live among people, and not by yourself in the forests). There are certain things you can't escape from. People are out there, people are part of the society which you are living in. Your next client could have a burn injury.

I know, from my own personal experience, that it is hard to live a decent life if you are afraid of certain people. Such phobia may affect your daily life, relationships and work. A phobia of spiders doesn't have to become a great issue. After all you don't have to have a relationship with them or work with them... You can live a decent life if you are scared of spiders. But being scared of certain people is not as easy as avoiding/killing spiders. What if the cashier at the only local food store has a burn injury? Will you just not buy food and go hungry? What if your doctor is the most qualified to treat you, but has a a burn injury in his face? Will you choose a less qualified one, to avoid seeing his face? (I know about a young man with a severe burn injury who once had dreams and hopes to work in the health care. He was so grateful for all the things doctors and nurses had done for him and he wanted to do the same for other people. I don't doubt he is really successful today. The first time I saw his face, it did repulse me, but later I could see so much more behind all the scars. His eyes. There was so much to see in his eyes.)

[Witsec7]

...

aren't they also suing the dead guy's family despite the fact that his widow gave them part of his life insurance money? the plane was in disrepair and had already had problems that day but they chose to keep flying.

I don't remember about the law suit settlement. I do remember her begging for money online to defray their hospitalization costs. Apparently a lot of money was raised and in the end she was outed when online folks found out that the hosp. wrote off all of their bills. I don't know if their/her subsequent bills were written off, she's had lots of surgeries including the most recent after the child was born, and then there is the cost of her c-section. I don't think they are hurting by a long shot though, she gets the click$ and the book promo tour was huge. Admittedly I know that med bills can eat up a small fortune if they have one. But she lives high on the hog.

[jesssnerch]

I don't remember about the law suit settlement. I do remember her begging for money online to defray their hospitalization costs. Apparently a lot of money was raised and in the end she was outed when online folks found out that the hosp. wrote off all of their bills. I don't know if their/her subsequent bills were written off, she's had lots of surgeries including the most recent after the child was born, and then there is the cost of her c-section. I don't think they are hurting by a long shot though, she gets the click$ and the book promo tour was huge. Admittedly I know that med bills can eat up a small fortune if they have one. But she lives high on the hog.

I wonder how they feel about nationalized health care?

[CanadianHippie]

aren't they also suing the dead guy's family despite the fact that his widow gave them part of his life insurance money? the plane was in disrepair and had already had problems that day but they chose to keep flying.

So basically "we got hurt, PAY US!" But really, suing the town because that is where the plane crashed? Unless the town jumped up into the planes flight path, they had nothing to do with it.

[Witsec7]

They were suing the town because of the way the town required power lines to be sited. It's all a bunch of fuckery.

[Gil]

Anyone think she wrote her own Wikipedia page? It reads like a promo for her blog.

[treemom]

Treemom, that must have been hard for both your husband & you (if he confided in you when things got to him) to deal with on a daily basis. I do thank him for what he's done to get child pornographers out of society and away from kids. I do agree with you - I'd rather have someone getting off on an innocent picture of a kid than it happening to a kid for real.

The picture is in poor taste and unnecessary. And it's not even good.

I just saw this so I should respond. The one thing that made it easier is a lot of the porn that is out there is just copies, of copies of copies. He didn't come into contact with a lot of newly created stuff. But it was hard when he did forensics and read journals, etc where these people talking about people following kids around at beaches and family bathrooms and the like.

He is private sector now, and I can't even talk in generics about most of what he does, which is sort of disappointing because he is still a badass.