Quick argument against Biblical corporal punishment

[snarkbillie]

I would like to submit that a grown adult who thinks that hitting a defenseless child is a good idea has not in fact "turned out fine".

I had a pretty horrific childhood. I'm not a serial killer. This does not mean that sexual and physical abuse are "okay". People can overcome great adversity. Some things are bad, just because someone overcomes them doesn't make them "good things" magically.

Your kids might very well turn out "fine" if you spank them, but it's not because you hit them it's in spite of you hitting them.

I'm really unbelievably extreme on this issue though so I'm probably going to bow out after this post.

[snarkbillie]

Wouldn't it be more effective to put a lock on the door so they can't just get out until they're old enough to understand not to go in the street?

:clap:

[thetabmeister]

Your comment doesn't really address my argument at all. Nevertheless, I'm going to respond because it brings up some other important points.

How do young kids learn? We know that role modelling is really important. Kids learn to act like their role models. Kids seek out love and closeness from parents. Kids also respond to a parent's emotions.

When parents spank, their children learn to use spanking to discipline their own children. It becomes hardwired into their brains as a normal, appropriate response. If you take a child from a spanking family and a child from a non-spanking family, the child from the spanking family is more likely to act out play scenes with dolls where a naughty child gets a spanking. As adults, they are more likely to see spanking as the needed response to a behavior. Think about it: this means that whether a child receives a spanking or not often depends less on the child's actions and needs, and more on whether or not the parent was spanked as a child.

As a child, you naturally want love and closeness from your parents, and you grew to associate this with the aftermath of the spankings.

I have no doubt that your parents loved you and meant well. Kids pick up on their parents' feelings. You grew to associate the spanking with being loved.

In other words - you really weren't learning and growing from the physical part of the discipline at all. Having someone else inflict pain wouldn't have had the same impact. Instead, you were responding to role modeling, receiving love and closeness and being aware of your parents' deep love for you.

Guess what? These are the building blocks for positive parenting! You build a strong relationship with your child, show them that you truly love them with all your heart, give them attention and affection and appreciation - and then be a positive role model, because your kids will WANT to be like you and will naturally take on your values and listen to you.

Completely agree. Your arguments are much more poised than mine. Personal question, and forgive me if you already addressed it, but were you spanked as a child, 2xx?

[thetabmeister]

I would like to submit that a grown adult who thinks that hitting a defenseless child is a good idea has not in fact "turned out fine".

I had a pretty horrific childhood. I'm not a serial killer. This does not mean that sexual and physical abuse are "okay". People can overcome great adversity. Some things are bad, just because someone overcomes them doesn't make them "good things" magically.

Your kids might very well turn out "fine" if you spank them, but it's not because you hit them it's in spite of you hitting them.

I'm really unbelievably extreme on this issue though so I'm probably going to bow out after this post.

Snarkbillie, don't bow out. There is no way that someone speaking the truth about an incredibly widespread misconception about a disgusting, perverted parenting method can be too "extreme." :shifty:

[Defrauding Errday]

And it is the one that spankers try to avoid answering.

True. The kicker is they insist it's not violent then use terms associated with violence like beat, whip, whup, etc.

What angers me most is when people pull the "spare the rod, spoil the child" in the comments of an article about child abuse. Despite "turning out fine", they're often quite angry and mean.

[Koala]

From that I believe that should I have children I would spank, but very little.

Okay, I'm going to fix your quote and I want you to tell me how it sits with you:

From that I believe that should I have children I would hit, but very little.

Still good with it?

But when they decide to let themselves out of the house and head out to cross the nearest highway and I see an 18 wheeler coming down the highway, I don't want to debate "Would you like to continue across the road or come back this way?" I need them to stop when I yell "Stop".

Straight up, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard this argument I would be rich right now.

If your kid is young enough to pull such a stunt and YOU are irresponsible enough to not have locks so high that they can't reach them, then YOU are the one at fault. Hitting the child is NOT the solution.

If you are close enough to hit them, you are close enough to pick them up and pull them out of harms way. If they are so scared of you hitting them that the second you yell "Stop" they stop because of previous hittings, then you are hitting a lot more than "very little".

When my babies were little they never ran into the street. That said, if they did something that wasn't safe I could say "Danger!" and the tone of my voice was enough to distract them until I could redirect them to something else. I didn't yell, but they could sense that I was alarmed. I never had to hit...ever. As they get older, it's a wonderful feeling to know that they can say that their parents never hit them or brought them any pain.

One of my favorite Robert Ingersoll quotes:

"I intend so to treat my children, that they can come to my grave and truthfully say: "He who sleeps here never gave us a moment of pain. From his lips, now dust, never came to us an unkind word."

[tinuviel]

Since the English definition obviously came after the Hebrew text, I looked up information about the Hebrew meaning of the word and language style of the book.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... 16139.html

The Hebrew name of the Book of Proverbs is Mishlei, which is the plural form of "mashal".

[bold added]

So....if it is a book of similes and metaphors, then it could be understood that "rod" isn't necessarily supposed to be a literal rod, and if the word refers to something characterized by "elevated language or rhetorical style", then people reading it would realize that it's very different from a literal commandment.

Also, can't "rod" here mean something like a shepherd's rod or staff? As in "they rod and they staff, they comfort me"? In that case the rod is just what the shepherd uses to guide the sheep to keep them from getting lost--he certainly wouldn't have HIT the sheep with such a rod. This way of thinking about the rod would also fit well with the original meaning of discipline--to guide or teach.

Also, 2xx1xy1JD, I totally agree with what you wrote about positive parenting. My mom used more positive parenting methods when I was little and my dad spanked and yelled. My relationship with my mom was MUCH better than with my dad. The outward behavior was the same with both parents, but I credit most of my moral formation and self-esteem to my mom's teaching and guidance--not to my dad's "discipline".

I remember walking on eggshells around him as a child. We played and had good times too, but in the back of my mind I was always aware that he could become the disciplinarian at any moment. This definitely didn't help in my teen years. I felt that he didn't trust me and viewed me as an adversary half of the time, even though I didn't really give him any reason to mistrust me. Made me EXTREMELY angry and resentful toward him, and I bet I would have rebelled big time if my mom had treated me the same way.

My mom doesn't have a problem with spanking, but she almost never spanked me. She disciplined through leading and teaching more than anything. She was consistent and very clear about her expectations, and was always willing to explain WHY. (She even apologized when she was wrong about something! How about that, fundies??) When I got in trouble with my mom I was usually upset because I knew I had just disappointed her in some way. We had a good relationship that made me WANT to please her, not to mention how happy and positive she was when I did behave well. By contrast, when I got in trouble with my dad I was usually upset because I was afraid of the consequences. Eventually I started getting upset by the fact that he obviously didn't give a shit about my side of the story either. Ugh.

I'd rather teach my kids, and hope that they learn to behave because of the positive relationship/reinforcement that comes with it than have them behave because they're afraid of me.

[Koala]

I would like to submit that a grown adult who thinks that hitting a defenseless child is a good idea has not in fact "turned out fine".

I had a pretty horrific childhood. I'm not a serial killer. This does not mean that sexual and physical abuse are "okay". People can overcome great adversity. Some things are bad, just because someone overcomes them doesn't make them "good things" magically.

Your kids might very well turn out "fine" if you spank them, but it's not because you hit them it's in spite of you hitting them.

I'm really unbelievably extreme on this issue though so I'm probably going to bow out after this post.

Please don't. You are coming across very well and making some good points. The world needs more people willing to speak up about this.

[tinuviel]

Also, Snarkbillie, your views don't sound extreme to me. It sounds like you're really passionate about them, and with good reason. But extreme? No. All of my German friends are kind of shocked and horrified that spanking is so prevalent in the U.S. To them pro-spanking is an extreme.

Obviously you shouldn't participate if you're uncomfortable with it, but don't worry about being extreme! You've made some great points. :-)

[debrand]

I spanked my children when they were young. Overtime, I came to the conclusion that the spankings were ineffective.

It can be very difficult for a parent that has spanked their children to admit that hitting their children is wrong. When my older children reached puberty, I apologized to them for the times when I spanked them. Hopefully, they won't spank their own kids.

This is an issue that people, especially spankers, get very defensive. Comments that follow stories about children beaten to death usually include a few people who point out that spanking is not like what happens to abused children. That has always struck me as odd because parents who ground their kids don't leave defensive comments beneath child abuse stories dealing with kids who were locked in basements. I think that this is because most spankers are highly uncomfortable with spanking and subconsciously realize that hitting is wrong. Parents who ground their kids don't see any similarity between grounding a child from TV and locking them in the basement without food.

[She Who Laughs]

My "I/we turned out fine" was because the OP proclaimed that she/he wasn't spanked and turned out fine. And that her/his kids weren't spanked and had perfect conduct grades. I was merely using the same comparison to show that spanking/not spanking doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how we turn out. My siblings and I were not spanked after the age of 10 or so and our parents also used other discipline methods in addition to spanking. Spankings were reserved for the blatant in your face rebellion and disobedience type things. For other things they withheld privileges, sent us to our room to cool off, etc. So I have seen more than just spanking used for discipline. I did the same with my kids and they were each perhaps spanked less than half a dozen times in their whole childhoods, they just didn't blatantly disobey enough to warrant any more than that.

There were a couple times in my childhood when I clearly remember being openly defiant but not getting a spanking immediately. And on those occasions I can remember thinking "wow I got away with that" and feeling pretty confident that if I could get away with that, then how much more could I get away with. But then the spanking came and I realized I couldn't get away with that and better not try that type of thing again.

You can call it hitting, spanking, whatever you want. But if you don't realize there is a difference between an open hand on a child's rear end and a punch in the face with a closed fist, then no amount of explanation will help.

And I didn't spank solely because "this is how my parents did it so it's good enough for me." I actually spent a lot of time deciding how I was going to parent, read a lot of books, sat under some great teaching and then came to the conclusion that I would spank, but only for certain circumstances and that I would use other methods in addition to spanking. I also don't believe in using a strap, a belt, a switch or any other instrument.

My kids and I have had conversations through the years about whether or not they would spank and I always told them it was their decision and that I supported them in whatever method they chose. I also told them to do their own research before they made the decision. If any of them had said they had chosen not to spank, then I would respect their wishes and if the time came where I was watching their kids for them than I would use the method they chose for discipline in my house as well.

Kids are different, some kids are very complacent and merely a stern look can make them behave while a different kid in the same circumstance would laugh in the face of the parent who tried a stern look. I've seen kids where time-outs worked beautifully and nothing else was every needed, but I've seen other kids where time-outs didn't work and unlike on the show Supernanny, those kids could have been put back on the naughty step until they passed out from lack of food and sleep, which in my opinion is more abusive than a quick spanking would have been.

And just as a side note, I can't help but wonder why it is only on FJ that people seem so extreme in their thinking. Through the years I've had the spanking/no-spanking conversation with dozens of people, Christian and non Christian and I've never come across anyone who was so adamant that spanking was so horrible. Most will just say whether or not they spank or plan to spank and what other methods they use and then end with something along the lines each person needing to raise their kids they way they feel is best. I've never had anyone in real life ever be so passionate about the whole topic.

[nolongerIFBx]

Wouldn't it be more effective to put a lock on the door so they can't just get out until they're old enough to understand not to go in the street?

With a chair they were able to get high enough to unlock the dead bolt.

[snarkbillie]

You can call it hitting, spanking, whatever you want. But if you don't realize there is a difference between an open hand on a child's rear end and a punch in the face with a closed fist, then no amount of explanation will help.

Shooting someone in the head killing them instantly and hanging them upside down by their feet while torturing them and starving them to death are different and yet they're still both wrong. It's wrong to use violence to coerce behavior. It's wrong when you do it to an adult and it's wrong when you do it to a kid.

And just as a side note, I can't help but wonder why it is only on FJ that people seem so extreme in their thinking. Through the years I've had the spanking/no-spanking conversation with dozens of people, Christian and non Christian and I've never come across anyone who was so adamant that spanking was so horrible. Most will just say whether or not they spank or plan to spank and what other methods they use and then end with something along the lines each person needing to raise their kids they way they feel is best. I've never had anyone in real life ever be so passionate about the whole topic.

Each person should raise their kids the way they feel is best within reason. There are literally thousands of things that are unacceptable to do to children. Spanking is one of them in my book. I'm passionate about this because children are human beings and deserve bodily autonomy just like the rest of us. If believing in human rights and basic respect for persons is extreme, then I'm extreme.

[thetabmeister]

And just as a side note, I can't help but wonder why it is only on FJ that people seem so extreme in their thinking. Through the years I've had the spanking/no-spanking conversation with dozens of people, Christian and non Christian and I've never come across anyone who was so adamant that spanking was so horrible. Most will just say whether or not they spank or plan to spank and what other methods they use and then end with something along the lines each person needing to raise their kids they way they feel is best. I've never had anyone in real life ever be so passionate about the whole topic.

^^"Since I don't actually have any good reasons to support my arguments or refute yours, I'll resort to generalities and changing the subject."

So apparently, since you've never met anyone so passionately anti-spanking before, this means....what? That you don't get out much? That you only see and hear what you want to see and hear? It doesn't really appear that you're here to engage in a meaningful discussion anyway, only to argue with those you disagree with. I'd venture to guess that given the opportunity, you'd avoid or shut down any folks that came across your way over the years who wanted to discuss how evil it is to strike children.

[thetabmeister]

Shooting someone in the head killing them instantly and hanging them upside down by their feet while torturing them and starving them to death are different and yet they're still both wrong. It's wrong to use violence to coerce behavior. It's wrong when you do it to an adult and it's wrong when you do it to a kid.

Each person should raise their kids the way they feel is best within reason. There are literally thousands of things that are unacceptable to do to children. Spanking is one of them in my book. I'm passionate about this because children are human beings and deserve bodily autonomy just like the rest of us. If believing in human rights and basic respect for persons is extreme, then I'm extreme.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[snarkbillie]

^^"Since I don't actually have any good reasons to support my arguments or refute yours, I'll resort to generalities and changing the subject."

So apparently, since you've never met anyone so passionately anti-spanking before, this means....what? That you don't get out much? That you only see and hear what you want to see and hear? It doesn't really appear that you're hear to engage in a meaningful discussion anyway, only to argue with those you disagree with. I'd venture to guess that given the opportunity, you'd avoid or shut down any folks that came across your way over the years who wanted to discuss how evil it is to strike children.

Perhaps the people she's been around are not too keen to start an argument or debate with someone who gleefully recounts the violence they've visited on others. I, for one, tend to keep my mouth shut when I feel I'm around someone who may be dangerous. While most people who hit kids restrict their violence to that arena, anyone who thinks hitting someone to get their way is "okay" is suspect in my mind.

[She Who Laughs]

^^"Since I don't actually have any good reasons to support my arguments or refute yours, I'll resort to generalities and changing the subject."

So apparently, since you've never met anyone so passionately anti-spanking before, this means....what? That you don't get out much? That you only see and hear what you want to see and hear? It doesn't really appear that you're here to engage in a meaningful discussion anyway, only to argue with those you disagree with. I'd venture to guess that given the opportunity, you'd avoid or shut down any folks that came across your way over the years who wanted to discuss how evil it is to strike children.

Wasn't attempting to change the subject at all. I have just noticed that on many, many different topics I find myself thinking that I have never met anyone in real life with such extreme views as those here on FJ. I just find it interesting and wonder where these extremists are hiding. Certainly there must be some in my community, I just wonder where they are. I get out plenty, have traveled to more than half of the states in the US, have lived in several states and in Canada for a while and have traveled in Europe pretty extensively and I don't care what the topic is, whether it is child rearing, women's rights, birth control, dating, religion, etc. I've just never come across people with such far, far, far left leanings. Most of the people I have conversed with seem to fall into the slightly left, moderate, conservative, or slight conservative viewpoint. I haven't come across any far, far, right leaning people in real life either.

[debrand]

Wouldn't it be more effective to put a lock on the door so they can't just get out until they're old enough to understand not to go in the street?

I've seen kids who ignore their parents up to the moment that they are about to receive a spanking.

One key to being a good parent is to be consistent.

Imagine two sets of parents dealing with a child jumping on the furniture. The first mom tells her son to stop jumping on the furniture, when he doesn't, she gets off her butt and takes her son off the couch. Even if it means holding him on her lap, she doesn't allow him to get back on that couch.

The second mom tells her child over and over to get off the couch. When she finally becomes enraged, she gets up and pops the child a few times. I've seen this happen often so it isn't far fetched.

So which child will stop when their mom yells at them? The first child has a mom that always gets off her ass to parent him. The second child doesn't. Which child do you really believe will run into the road despite being told to stop?

If you build up a relationship with your child in which they know that your noes always mean no, they are more likely to obey you during an emergency.

[thetabmeister]

Perhaps the people she's been around are not too keen to start an argument or debate with someone who gleefully recounts the violence they've visited on others. I, for one, tend to keep my mouth shut when I feel I'm around someone who may be dangerous. While most people who hit kids restrict their violence to that arena, anyone who thinks hitting someone to get their way is "okay" is suspect in my mind.

Even when I thought spanking was acceptable, I always felt uncomfortable to hear it discussed in any fashion by someone outside our immediate family or in public. I think that we know deep within our beings that it is dehumanizing and cruel even when we act upon it. For those who would believe in a God, I'd argue that that inner sense of morality could be a convincing sign of His existence. And for those who don't believe, I mean no offense. But I do not believe in or worship a God who mandates that I bring harm to children under the guise of "training" them.

[tinuviel]

With a chair they were able to get high enough to unlock the dead bolt.

^ That. Also, the 18 wheeler example is a total straw man. No one ever said that positive parenting prohibits one from saving a child from an oncoming truck. No one ever said that positive parenting means that you can't touch your child or say stern words about danger.

No one here is saying that you should let your child die instead of grabbing them and pulling them to safety. People are just saying that there's no good reason to spank your kid after pulling them to safety.

(Kid would probably be scared shitless by the parent's panicked reaction anyway.)

Feel free to argue your point, but please don't make ridiculous examples that have nothing to do with your opponent's views

ETA: As far as I can tell, not everyone on FJ is left-leaning. There's a broader range than that. To me it sounds like you're avoiding the argument by introducing an "extreme-ness" red herring.

[2xx1xy1JD]

You have your opinion, I have mine. I love how anti-spankers call it hitting, they like to do that to make it sound violent and "disgusting." I never felt that way about it even while it was happening. I knew why I was being spanked and I knew what I had done to deserve it. If my parents had tried some other lame method, I would have seen it as a victory and would have continued in my bad behavior. Funny thing that anti-spankers never mention is that even parents who may not spank can end up using their discipline method in an abusive way. Some lock their kids in closets, handcuff them to their beds, lock them in the basement, make them sit in time-out for hours on end. Absolutely ANY method for discipline can be turned into a horrible and abusive thing if done the wrong way, in an extreme manner, and out of anger.

Nice straw man there, along with a false dichotomy.

Nobody here has suggested that any of these extreme physical punishment are appropriate.

I'm not in favor of physical punishment, period.

There is more than 1 non-spanking approach. Some simply learn to replace spanking with less physical punishments, like time-outs, along with sometimes using rewards as well. Some (like me) tend to throw the whole notion of rigid punishments and rewards out the window, and instead go back to basics to figure out how kids grow and develop and learn and develop values.

So, since I don't spank, what do I do instead of handcuffing my kids or locking them in the basement? Do I just endlessly negotiate or nag or let them run wild? Not at all.

It looks something like this:

You start off by thinking about how kids' are affected by basic things like food, sleep and exercise. I've got one kid who reacts badly when her blood sugar dips, and another who reacts badly to lack of sleep. So, you make schedules of meals and snacks, making sure that the kids have input and that they kids are getting the nutrition they need and keeping the blood sugars stable. You ensure that they are getting proper rest, and naps for the younger ones. You make sure that they can get the exercise that they need to release their energy, stay healthy and get a boost of endorphins.

You do everything that you can to build a strong relationship with your child. You recognize when they do good stuff, but you also let them know that you love them for just being themselves.

You realize that toddlers learn through endless repetition, because that builds the neural pathways in the brain. You keep routines consistent. You have consistent rules. You use routines and repetition to shape habits - everything from holding hands whenever you leave the house, to tidying up when a song is sung, to giving charity on a regular basis.

You don't use TV, computer or other "screens" as a babysitter. You realize that young children are basically sponges, and absorb whatever comes in. That means thinking seriously about what you allow, and how much. We have a 24 hour period each week unplugged.

You make sure that your kids can always have a rock-solid trust in you, and know that you will always do what is in their best interests. If you say no, they may not be happy but they will know that it is for their own good. They also need to know that you are not reacting out of your own anger, or embarrassment, or pride, or lack of control. This is easier said than done.

Your motto is "act, don't yak". If a child is about to do something dangerous, you grab them. If they are doing something they shouldn't with an object, you swoop in and take that object away. If they are hurting another child, you immediately separate them. If they aren't leaving the house on time but are still sitting on the couch, you unplug the TV. No yelling or warnings or threats - just do.

You keep the volume in the house manageable, and talk in a regular voice, so that you don't have to yell to be heard. You go right up to a child, and get on their level, so that you get their attention. You reserve your loud NO for the most serious/dangerous situations, and then the shock of hearing it alone will get a child's attention.

You act as a positive role model.

You don't make promises that you can't keep. You break the cycle of endless, empty bribes and threats.

[Koala]

And just as a side note, I can't help but wonder why it is only on FJ that people seem so extreme in their thinking. Through the years I've had the spanking/no-spanking conversation with dozens of people, Christian and non Christian and I've never come across anyone who was so adamant that spanking was so horrible. Most will just say whether or not they spank or plan to spank and what other methods they use and then end with something along the lines each person needing to raise their kids they way they feel is best. I've never had anyone in real life ever be so passionate about the whole topic.

Yes, I'm very extreme when it comes to people promoting violence against children and making it seem harmless. If someone feels it is best to hit their children as a form of discipline then I am going to speak up.

Last week I took my kids to the zoo. We were about to round the corner to go into the primate building and we saw a woman hit her child (she was probably 15-18 months). Unfortunately there is not law against it here, but I did say something. My children were upset and they gasped when they saw it, so as we passed her I look her straight in the eye and said, "It's a shame for anyone to hit a baby." She just stared at me...I doubt it had ever happened to her before, but I felt like I had to speak up.

[2xx1xy1JD]

No, I wasn't spanked.

I didn't fully appreciate all the things that my parents did right, however, until I started doing child protection cases and realized that so much of what I just took for granted as "normal" parenting wasn't so common.

[Third]

I always thought the rod\staff was used to guide the sheep not spank them to cause pain. Like how a sheep dog isn't allowed to bite or even nip the sheep they have to be able to control them by other means. Jesus being compared to a shepherd - I cannot see Jesus hitting someone to make them comply. Even when he dealt with his disciples who were fisherman etc rough around the edges.

I have noticed from parenting the first go around and now a change in parenting trends. Not spanking, rear facing car seats longer etc.

[thetabmeister]

No, I wasn't spanked.

I didn't fully appreciate all the things that my parents did right, however, until I started doing child protection cases and realized that so much of what I just took for granted as "normal" parenting wasn't so common.